So are Ya'll ready to believe that Rod Temperton stole song writing credits from Greg Phillinganes too?

[kelley]

Why worry about some random writing credit for songs that are now well over 40 years old?

A few hardcore fans might be interested but the general public? Who bloody cares.

We’re about to go into 2026, relax and have a good Christmas.

I care because the historical record matters.

Also Ive seen so called fans say they tried to changed the album credits on wikipedia to add Brad Buxers name to the credits of Stranger in Moscow. They were actually upset that they weren't able to do so!!

Adding his name or Gregs name to DSTYGE would give the impression that they wrote half the song. Which is absurd and not fair to Michael.

Also you have people like the MJcast guys who have done several episodes where they lament how these guys didn't get the credit they deserve and even go far as to say things like that the guys on the Bad Album team should have gotten writers credit! Even though none of those guys they interviewed even said they deserved writing credits!

And I believe the MJcast guys are taking it that extreme because they believe claims like Brads and so that has created a whole false narrative where all of these other collaborators must have been unfairly denied writing credits as well. Even though they themselves never claimed that.

That's the damage Brad and gregs claims have caused. And those MJcast episodes and interviews are now a part of the historical record.

We should all care when the historical record is tainted with false information.

 

[kelley]

This is not the point, and the point everyone seems to be missing. Greg was ORIGINALLY credited for his input, which was then removed.

https://www.discogs.com/release/198963-Michael-Jackson-Dont-Stop-Til-You-Get-Enough/image/SW1hZ2U6MTA2NDgxOTQ=

His credit was then taken away, so this is NOT a case of someone crying over a credit they didn't get. He had the credit, and it was taken away.

I'm aware of this. Doesn't change the fact that the right decision was made. He should not have received a writing credit for it to begin with.

I see this as just another case of Michael being too nice and it biting him in the ass.

Fortunately he was brave enough correct this mistake, otherwise people would give Greg half the credit for one of his biggest and best songs. Just like Lionel Richie gets praised to the high heavens for We are the World, even though Michael wrote like 98% of that song. And does Lionel make that fact known? Nope, in interviews and in that WATW documentary on Netflix he sits there and happily soaks up all the praise and glory

There are some people here that seem to be so affected by all the negativity generated by MJ over the past few decades that they make it their life mission to villainise ANY person that critiscises MJ.

I think you mean generated by Michael's enemies.

Whether Greg deserved a credit is definitely open to interpretation and debate, but the fact is that he was given the credit and then it was taken off him. This is a tale as old as time. But to go out of your way to paint Greg as a bad guy (like OP is desperate to do) in the story of MJ is just pathetic.

If you want to go for Greg, go for his sticking his head in the sand about the Cascio tracks. His silence is leagues worse than arguing about losing out on decades of royalties of one of the most popular songs of all time.

Edit: To clarify a comment.

Well his silence of the Cascio tracks (which I was not aware of) isn't a good look for his character.

Im not saying the guy is evil. I've said before I don't even think Brad is evil. I think they are both flawed humans and they have a very human desire to be remembered and to elevate themselves, and they want to do that by attaching themselves to Michael's legacy and genius.

But their desire to elevate themselves is harmful to Michael. If us fans (cause we're the only ones protecting Michael) don't stay vigilante people will just run wild using Michael to benefit themselves.

 

[MJJuniorSinceMW]

Let’s face it, now it’s just the hip thing to say “Ohh no, Michael didn’t do all that. Other people did this, different people did that. But Michael, no way he did all that!”

MJ - the success, the mystery - it’s all to big and grand for this day & age. We like to be real, we wanna be so aUthEnTIc…

So let’s have a little chitty chat over it, deconstruct it, demystify & explain everything.
We’re the hipsters, we see through things. That MJ guy wasn’t all that big, wasn’t all that shiny..

LOL, It’s pretty pathetic really!

 

[kelley]

Because songwriting and arranging are different.

“Don’t Stop” didn’t have a bridge of any kind in its original state, as evidenced in the demo. Greg wrote one.

A bridge is not a requirement for a song.

And the bridge in Don't stop is NOT a original piece of music from Greg. It's based off of the rest of the song. Greg did not come up with it on his own. He took the melody that is already present in Michael's demo and changed it a bit. That's no different than a musician changing the song up in a live performance. Nobody would argue that the muscian deserves to be added as the writer of the song in that situation.

What Greg did on Don't stop is the very definition of arranging.

That is songwriting, hence why he was originally credited as co-writer and why he has since claimed authorship on the song (and rightfully so). “Blame It On the Boogie” was fully composed by all accounts, and Greg assisted with how the drums should be played. That is arrangement, hence why he has never once claimed to have written that song.

You're simply wrong. Dont Stop is much closer to the Demo version than Boogie is to the original version, The Jacksons version has completely different music! Only the lyrics and the melody of the chorus is the same. Everything else is different. They created new music for the Jacksons version and just kept the lyrics and chorus!

Once again for comparison

Compare these 2 videos and then compare Michael's demo for Don't stop to the album version. That bridge greg added did not fundamentally change the song, because it was built off of the song.

I don’t mean to be rude here, but I feel you’re deliberately refusing to acknowledge this and just looking for an argument, especially since your counters amount to “Randy is a good drummer so he probably came up with it” and “the interviewer was confused so clearly Greg meant something different.” We don’t need that kind of “discussion” here.

You don't have to participate.

 

[kelley]

Just because it was a common industry practice doesn’t mean it’s okay. And I find it a little disingenuous to say, “These songwriters, many of whom were likely struggling to break into the industry and scrounging for money (as most songwriters are), saw an opportunity to work with a legend in exchange for him taking undue royalties for songs he didn’t write. Maybe they shouldn’t have said yes! That’s THEIR fault! They can’t cry about it now!

It’s not a mute topic. Any artist who takes credit for something they did not do deserves to be criticized for it, up to and including Michael Jackson.

And just because it may have happened in the invincible era, it doesn't mean that it must have also happened retroactively 20 years prior.

You use what happened in the invincible era to cast Judgement on the younger version of Michael.

People change. People become hardened and disillusioned with life, especially when they suffer traumas. Michael was not in a good space during the invincible album. He was not the same as he was during Off the Wall and Thriller.

The evidence shows that the younger Michael was actually TOO generous with writing credits and often didn't even take credit for the work he did. You want to criticize invincible era Michael, fine. But You can't just label 20 year old Michael a thief because 40 year old Michael started following a common industry practice for that time. You have to look at the evidence in the proper context.

Ive noticed some fans seem to have a hard time comprehending that Michael was a human being who lived a life and was not static character. So for example they are confused about Michael's love for KFC chicken in his later years, because they read an interview from 1983 where he said he was a vegetarian. It's like they can't fathom that he simply changed his food preferences when he got older.

 

[AlwaysThere]

Utterly baffling conversation lmao. “The bridge didn’t completely change the song so Greg doesn’t deserve songwriting credit.”

 

[blair]

Utterly baffling conversation lmao. “The bridge didn’t completely change the song so Greg doesn’t deserve songwriting credit.”

Honest question, if Michael would have tried to force Porcaro for example go give him credit for Human nature, would you agree with him or simply call that a whim from a star ? Because I'm pretty sure lot of peoples would have called him like that despite his contribution, so why a double standard for Philliganes ?

 

[AlwaysThere]

Honest question, if Michael would have tried to force Porcaro for example go give him credit for Human nature, would you agree with him or simply call that a whim from a star ? Because I'm pretty sure lot of peoples would have called him like that despite his contribution, so why a double standard for Philliganes ?

That’s not a double standard because it’s not the same situation. MJ contributing ad-libs to “Human Nature” is not deserving of a co-writing credit. Greg composing the bridge to “Don’t Stop” from scratch absolutely is. If ad-libs were enough to claim co-authorship, then MJ should’ve been credited for every song he ever sang.

 

[blair]

That’s not a double standard because it’s not the same situation. MJ contributing ad-libs to “Human Nature” is not deserving of a co-writing credit. Greg composing the bridge to “Don’t Stop” from scratch absolutely is. If ad-libs were enough to claim co-authorship, then MJ should’ve been credited for every song he ever sang.

The soaring stuff Porcaro have talked is the intro, you can hear the demo it was not here, see the interview I have posted, there are also Just Friends for Carol Bayer Sager, I have given you a quote if you want, so yes that the same thing.

 

[AlwaysThere]

The soaring stuff Porcaro have talked is the intro, you can hear the demo it was not here, see the interview I have posted, there are also Just Friends for Carol Bayer Sager, I have given you a quote if you want, so yes that the same thing.

Porcaro’s exact quote: “That way—some of that soaring stuff during the intro—the re-intros and stuff? That was all Michael.” He’s clearly talking about the “oh why” ad-lib after the second and third choruses that everyone dies for, hence the mention of the “re-intros.” Ad-libs do not qualify as compositional elements. Again, if MJ deserved a writers’ credit for ad-libs, there shouldn’t be a single song in his discography he isn’t credited on.

As for “Just Friends,” the quote you shared specifically says that MJ came back with a different arrangement. She never says he changed the music or added/rewrote lyrics. He’s credited as producer, which I feel is a more or less apt description based on what she said (though we’d have to hear the before and after to really tell how much he did).

I’m really not trying to come off argumentative here, but neither of these examples are in the same category as Greg’s work on “Don’t Stop.”

 

[blair]

Porcaro’s exact quote: “That way—some of that soaring stuff during the intro—the re-intros and stuff? That was all Michael.” He’s clearly talking about the “oh why” ad-lib after the second and third choruses that everyone dies for, hence the mention of the “re-intros.” Ad-libs do not qualify as compositional elements. Again, if MJ deserved a writers’ credit for ad-libs, there shouldn’t be a single song in his discography he isn’t credited on.

As for “Just Friends,” the quote you shared specifically says that MJ came back with a different arrangement. She never says he changed the music or added/rewrote lyrics. He’s credited as producer, which I feel is a more or less apt description based on what she said (though we’d have to hear the before and after to really tell how much he did).

I’m really not trying to come off argumentative here, but neither of these examples are in the same category as Greg’s work on “Don’t Stop.”

I really don't see how you have conclued he have talked about ad-libs when he have talked about the intro where there are no ad-libs, if he wanted to talk about the chorus he would have said the "chorus", you seem really to put other meaning in his words

Also sorry but the Why part of the chorus is also more than just ad-libs, it's just the part of the chorus, that way more important to this song that the bridge of don't stop imo.

For Just Friends I have quoted that because that have been said that have been completely different, he have said to be "another concept", I could argue that the bridge is derived from the rest of don't stop too, in the sense that simply follow the sound and was not really different like Shelley have said, so we call that too an arrangement.

 

[AlwaysThere]

Agree to disagree with this one haha.

 

[innuendo141]

Greg didn't have asked credit since "Don't stop", in fact according in an interview he have said that he have accepted to avoid a conflict and Michael have always been generous with him, the problem it's this bridge could have been worked together with Michael (or another artist), it's maybe for this reason it was considered like an arrangement and not a full composing work, we have just Greg version in this case.

Also the difference arranging and writing is not always clear in this work, a song is long process, see my examples in this thread with Michael himself or Temperton.

Sheila E have said to have done some percussions works in this song but she didn't have any credit and she didn't seem to care too much.

The difference in the case of DSTYGE is clear as daylight. The song did not have a bridge. Greg wrote one, and it was included in the final version of the song. The bridge is drastically different from the intro, verses and choruses. Not only that, but it's an iconic bridge at that!

Why would Sheila E need a credit for playing percussion? Now we are introducing session players to the conversation when we are talking about the bridge that Greg wrote for DSTYGE.

Also, Quincy corroborated Greg's story. I know he's a baddie to many now but it's irrelevant since the 7" and 12" singles went out AND CREDITED HIM!

 

[innuendo141]

The soaring stuff Porcaro have talked is the intro, you can hear the demo it was not here, see the interview I have posted, there are also Just Friends for Carol Bayer Sager, I have given you a quote if you want, so yes that the same thing.

Quincy wrote the strings part for DSTYGE. With the logic above, he should have gotten a writing credit too. If this argument is used, then DSTYGE should be credited to Jackson, Jones and Phillinganes.

 

[kelley]

That’s not a double standard because it’s not the same situation. MJ contributing ad-libs to “Human Nature” is not deserving of a co-writing credit. Greg composing the bridge to “Don’t Stop” from scratch absolutely is. If ad-libs were enough to claim co-authorship, then MJ should’ve been credited for every song he ever sang.

The bridge is not from scratch though

It's basically a repeat from the theme at the beginning of the song just rearranged a bit. Greg didn't compose anything.

 

[kelley]

The difference in the case of DSTYGE is clear as daylight. The song did not have a bridge. Greg wrote one, and it was included in the final version of the song. The bridge is drastically different from the intro, verses and choruses. Not only that, but it's an iconic bridge at that!

Why would Sheila E need a credit for playing percussion? Now we are introducing session players to the conversation when we are talking about the bridge that Greg wrote for DSTYGE.

Also, Quincy corroborated Greg's story. I know he's a baddie to many now but it's irrelevant since the 7" and 12" singles went out AND CREDITED HIM!

Seriously? Now you're just lying. it's not drastically different.

 

[kelley]

Quincy wrote the strings part for DSTYGE. With the logic above, he should have gotten a writing credit too. If this argument is used, then DSTYGE should be credited to Jackson, Jones and Phillinganes.

So you serious arguing that Greg's name should have been next to Michael's and he should receive half the credit for DSTYGE for the few seconds of bridge he added that he built off of Michael's composition?

Wow.

 

[innuendo141]

So you serious arguing that Greg's name should have been next to Michael's and he should receive half the credit for DSTYGE for the few seconds of bridge he added that he built off of Michael's composition?

Wow.

I realise that you struggle to see past your own nose when it comes to anyone else's comments that don't deem MJ a diety, but if you bothered to read my earlier posts you see that I say it's debatable whether he deserved a credit or not. As far as I'm concerned your issue has been with Greg being bitter about a credit - you constantly ignore that he was originally credited, which has been my point. Greg is not simply crying over a credit he never got like you make out. He's complaining about missing out on a credit that was taken off him.

And if you don't think the bridge adds anything to the song that wasn't there, that's on you. Also, it you struggle to understand the difference between arranging and writing, I see that another board member was kind enough to explain this to you.

I think this is just going to go in a circle now so I've nothing else to add.

You are such, a negative, angry person and you seem to take pride in it.

 

[blair]

The difference in the case of DSTYGE is clear as daylight. The song did not have a bridge. Greg wrote one, and it was included in the final version of the song. The bridge is drastically different from the intro, verses and choruses. Not only that, but it's an iconic bridge at that!

Why would Sheila E need a credit for playing percussion? Now we are introducing session players to the conversation when we are talking about the bridge that Greg wrote for DSTYGE.

Also, Quincy corroborated Greg's story. I know he's a baddie to many now but it's irrelevant since the 7" and 12" singles went out AND CREDITED HIM!

No it's not like Kelley have said, the bridge is not very different, it's just a retooled/remix of the song, see the bridge of PYT, Rock with you etc...to see the difference.

Sheila E have said that her percussion part is in the song released not just for the session.

Quincy has à big problem with Michael during his last day, he was old so I don't if he have seen something or simply repeat Greg story, yes we know for some old vinyls credits, and we know that Jackson have changed his mind about that and like I have said in a previous the credit have lot of potential mistake in them

 

[blair]

Quincy wrote the strings part for DSTYGE. With the logic above, he should have gotten a writing credit too. If this argument is used, then DSTYGE should be credited to Jackson, Jones and Phillinganes.

That make my point, a song is a common effort, we can't credit everyone, Quincy has said that it was not rare that artist help for free, he have taken for example Temperton, Jackson have helped for the song Thriller and PYT but has zero credit.

The soar stuff is way more important than the bridge of don't stop, that introduce and conclude the song.

 

[dethorro]

Utterly baffling conversation lmao. “The bridge didn’t completely change the song so Greg doesn’t deserve songwriting credit.”

Yes, a completely absurd comment.

 

[Themidwestcowboy]

I think a good comparison regarding DSTYGE would be Keep The Faith. If I recall correctly, MJ got co-writer credit for adding the bridge to the song.

I think this isn’t as clear cut as it seems, from both sides because there are really no hard rules about this.In many cases it boils down to what the original composer ‘deem’ to be significant enough to warrant a co-writer credit, and that can get very murky.

 

[Michaelounet]

Even a small bridge, it's not cool not to mention it in the credits, but Greg doesn't hold it against him anymore

 

[AlwaysThere]

I love that in this very thread, we have someone saying “MJ took writing credits for songs he didn’t write and that’s okay because that’s how the industry works” and someone else saying “Greg doesn’t deserve credit for writing the bridge to DSTYGE because I don’t think the bridge is important enough to justify it.” Outstanding.

 

[R1chard]

We should all care when the historical record is tainted with false information.

Honestly, no we shouldn't. It doesn't matter. People have much more important things to care about.

 

[Alaslam]

He was their composer during this time

 

[kelley]

I love that in this very thread, we have someone saying “MJ took writing credits for songs he didn’t write and that’s okay because that’s how the industry works”

Nobody said that. We said that's how the industry worked THEN in the early 2000s. You all refuse to acknowledge the CONTEXT of both situations.

I just looked at the album credits for invincible and it's clear that that some kinda deal was made and those credits are more political in nature which falls in line with the industry standards of that time.

Both MJ and Rodney Jerkins or Teddy Riley are usually listed is the writers of the songs, which to me indicates that some kinda deal was at play. A deal the writers entered into it on their own free will.

If those songs writers had at any time said to Michael and Teddy. "I changed my mind. I'm not sharing credit" they would be well within their rights. Just like Michael had a right to not share credits on HIS song.

On other songs on the album like Butterflies, MJ has no writing credit which leads me to believe that him having credit on those other songs is something those writers wanted and agreed to. He was not demanding credits like some of you insinuate.

I think it's interesting that none of you have anything to say about Rodney Jerkins taking writing credits on songs like Whatever happens which are basically identical to the demo.

Rodney gets to keep his reputation and not be labeled as a thief. Same with Teddy Riley and Quincy (who took credit for PYT which written almost entirely by Louis Johnson)

But Quincy gets to keep his status and his respect. And he gets to trash and condemn Michael.

Interesting.

and someone else saying “Greg doesn’t deserve credit for writing the bridge to DSTYGE because I don’t think the bridge is important enough to justify it.” Outstanding.

Correct. During the 1970s it was not common practice to put a thousand names on the song credit.

That changed by the time of the invincible album and has changed even more since then to the point where now we have Beyonce's preteen daughter Blue Ivy listed as a song writer on her songs and winning grammys for it.

 

[kelley]

He was their composer during this time

What are you talking about?

Your ways was written by Jackie Jackson.

Are you implying that Greg really wrote it just because he's working on it?

 

[AlwaysThere]

I think it's interesting that none of you have anything to say about Rodney Jerkins taking writing credits on songs like Whatever happens which are basically identical to the demo.

Show us in the liner notes where Rodney has a songwriting credit on any song other than the ones he produced.

I’m willing to accept the MJ/Teddy credit on “Whatever Happens” because they probably wrote the instrumental prelude. That said, given the logic of this thread, they shouldn’t have been given that because the prelude really isn’t all that important in the grand scheme of things, plus it’s derivative of the rest of the song.

 

[kelley]

Show us in the liner notes where Rodney has a songwriting credit on any song other than the ones he produced.

I updated my post. I meant to say teddy Riley.

I’m willing to accept the MJ/Teddy credit on “Whatever Happens” because they probably wrote the instrumental prelude. That said, given the logic of this thread, they shouldn’t have been given that because the prelude really isn’t all that important in the grand scheme of things, plus it’s derivative of the rest of the song.

If you going to apply that standard retroactively you need to go back and criticize Pretty much every artist then.

Prince should have given writing credit for the song Kiss to the people who took his demo and turned it into the final version.

You can't just apply that standard to Michael alone. But you will because that's how people always treat Michael.