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HIStory - Listening to the song and album in 2025

innuendo141

innuendo141

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It really hit me there listening to this song full of such historic quotes - Robert Kennedy, Mohammad Ali, Malcolm X etc.

And the Star Spangled Banner...

Who here thought they'd live to see the US every day becoming a more apparent threat to its own democracy and to the stability of the world?

Listening to this song I always thought it oozed in hope and determination, but listening now it just feels like a love letter to when hope and change were a possibility in the US. Looking at the place now, we are watching it crumble in real time. Listening to such historic and timeless quotes, to the ramblings of someone with the mental capabilities of a potato.

It's just very sad. HIStory is such a great album, to me it's timeless. Listening to it in 2025, it's taken such a dark turn.

The environment? Hoax. Everything is about money, this deal that deal - tarrifs that makes no sense. The press? Useless. Far right ideologies on the rise? Sure, we know "they don't care about us". Corrupt officials? DS man. Scream? Smile? How many children have to die before we stand to lend a helping hand? Thousands and thousands so far anyways in Gaza, and not enough - and why not send a childish threat of war and destruction to Hamas to try get some peace. Perfect.

You get what you pay for. We have entered a crazy period of history. And this album just keeps telling the story. I just never thought it would tell the one we are living in right now.
 
AlwaysThere said:
Without getting too political, I wholeheartedly agree with you on every point. The image this song paints couldn’t be more disparate from reality, and it sucks.
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Yeah I hate to get political or whatever, I just felt a bit angry and useless.

Still, great album!
 
Agreed, but the truth is, there is always war somewhere, because people never learn... that's the craziest thing for me. Looking back at thousands of years of people killing each other one would think that humans can learn from their mistakes.
 
I too find myself similarly struck with sad irony when I listen to that album. There's not a single song (minus CT and YANA) that is not pertinent to today with regards to world issues and specific MJ issues. The fact that he sung about these 30 years ago, and both aspects have gotten worse over this time makes the future look bleak. Even the song Smile seems like a more important message now.

I was listening to DS yesterday, a song I never listen to, and I was thinking to myself that song probably egged TS on for 2005, there were dog noises and even a gun shot in there. I wondered whether MJ was brave or foolish to actually have that on the album, I didn't reach a conclusion but I found myself admiring MJs endeavour to always remain a true artist of expression at heart.

I work in schools, and I used to feel sad when I had to explain history and old, unfair ways of thinking. I used to tell kids, a 'long time ago this is how some people thought', and because I knew I was going to say something illogical I would finish with 'but that was a long time ago and people don't think like this now'. And I find it really hard some of the conversations I now have to have about current polarising events that remain illogical to kids, and I can't say to the kids 'people don't think like this anymore'. It makes me really sad that I can't reassure the kids in my class anymore😢. And that's something new for me, I never had that experience before.
 
someplace_else said:
Agreed, but the truth is, there is always war somewhere, because people never learn... that's the craziest thing for me. Looking back at thousands of years of people killing each other one would think that humans can learn from their mistakes.
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It's simple. Humans never will learn because religion. If you have one irrational thing that takes precedence over everything else, peace becomes impossible.

The only solution is that we make being religious socially unacceptable. All religions need to die out. There's literally no other way. THAT'S what we have to tell kids in schools.
 
R1chard said:
It's simple. Humans never will learn because religion. If you have one irrational thing that takes precedence over everything else, peace becomes impossible.

The only solution is that we make being religious socially unacceptable. All religions need to die out. There's literally no other way. THAT'S what we have to tell kids in schools.
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Religion is nothing more than a philosophy. Even if you wiped out all religion, you would not wipe out conflicting philosophies. And all humans live by some philosophy whether it be political, economical, social or cultural whether they are aware of it or not.

The basic lesson I have to teach in every class is not actually academic, it's simply learning to get along so there are not silly fallouts affecting my lessons. And that has nothing to do with religion.
 
Human greed, as an expression of the neural reward system that demands ever more, combined with human intelligence, leads to many of the problems we face in the world today. No living creature exploits the planet's resources like we do, which leads to wars and climate change.
 
R1chard said:
It's simple. Humans never will learn because religion. If you have one irrational thing that takes precedence over everything else, peace becomes impossible.

The only solution is that we make being religious socially unacceptable. All religions need to die out. There's literally no other way. THAT'S what we have to tell kids in schools.
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Nah, it's not just religion...there are so many factors to consider, the solution is not that easy. Mainly it's money and power, I'd say.
 
jasmine.uddin said:
Religion is nothing more than a philosophy. Even if you wiped out all religion, you would not wipe out conflicting philosophies. And all humans live by some philosophy whether it be political, economical, social or cultural whether they are aware of it or not
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No, you don't get millions of people killing each other for thousands of years over political or social philosophy.

The difference is definitely religion. It wasn't power or money that caused those deaths in Manchester yesterday.
 
R1chard said:
No, you don't get millions of people killing each other for thousands of years over political or social philosophy.

The difference is definitely religion. It wasn't power or money that caused those deaths in Manchester yesterday.
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What about WW1, WW2? Of course religion ALWAYS plays a role but you cannot break it down to it being the main factor.

And I also want to add: religion should be something that guides you and gives you strength. But you also have to accept if people think differently and not try to change them or their opinions. That's the main religion-problem.

Basically the point is: live and let live, don't judge, try to be a good person, etc. pp...well...we are in general just to many humans on this planet 🫠.
 
someplace_else said:
What about WW1, WW2?
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What about them? WWII was a war against Jews??

someplace_else said:
I also want to add: religion should be something that guides you and gives you strength.
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They say that, but in practice it never happens.

Anyway, I'm not interested in going backwards and forwards discussing religion. All of today's religions will eventually die out, it's just a shame it won't happen quickly. I have nothing else to say.
 
R1chard said:
What about them? WWII was a war against Jews??
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Not really...it was basically to expand the "Deutsches Reich", gain more power for Adolf-dumba*s, race blabla - religion was not the main topic here.

Edit: the main problem was a man with ego problems...maybe that's the real threat here? There are some Presidents today...well..💁
 
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R1chard said:
No, you don't get millions of people killing each other for thousands of years over political or social philosophy.

The difference is definitely religion. It wasn't power or money that caused those deaths in Manchester yesterday.
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Recent wars that had nothing to do with religion, WW1, Iraq war, Ukraine war, Vietnam war, civil war in Sudan. WW2 did not start due to religion, the holocaust was not the reason the world went to war, the holocaust was discovered way after the war had began by the rest of the world. All these wars started due to political and socio economic reasons. Please don't use one example to disproportionately represent your point.

Wars happen with or without religion because of differing ideologies. If you think lack of religions will end all wars, then I don't know what to say. You will have to stop at more than eradicating religion, you will have to eradicate differing ideologies and philosophies, why not go all the way and eradicate independent thought so we can all live in a cookie cutter world of your choosing.
 
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innuendo141 said:
... it just feels like a love letter to when hope and change were a possibility ...
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I personally felt a change in music messages... the 80s and especially the 90s had many more songs about solidarity, uniting people, possibly all the people... And from 2000 to 2010, I felt the rise of a careless individualism... which matched well with the generalisation of narcissism-driven social media such as Facebook...
Now, I don't listen much to recent music, but whenever I do, messages just feel bland.

I don't really see a link between the album and recent world. Except They Don't Care About Us, Scream... Maybe bits here and there in other songs.

jasmine.uddin said:
Wars happen with or without religion because of differing ideologies.
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Yeah, I think most big wars happen because of resources/energy/food/power over people (who could be seen as resources when manual labour was vital) ... Probably some wars supplied with U.S. equipment paid in dollars happen "because of money", but I suppose they're an exception, as money is an abstraction over energy and resources and I'm not sure what other countries have such a big business in war supplies to keep running. Religions can serve as a façade and instrument of control.
(Haven't read the whole thread.)
 
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jasmine.uddin said:
...Iraq war...
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Reminding me about wars caused by money... Some say the real issue for the second Iraq War was that Hussein wanted to get rid of dollar in his economy. Same was said later about Gaddafi. (Not sure how reliable this is.)
 
Maxym said:
I don't really see a link between the album and recent world. Except They Don't Care About Us, Scream... Maybe bits here and there in other songs
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Here are the songs that I felt were still if not more relevant today with respect to world issues or MJ issues.

Scream-relevant to any individual/group frustrated by marginalisation.

TDCAU- political relevance.

SIM- relevant to MJs false accusations post death.

ES- environmental relevance.

TTA- relevant to MJs false accusations post death.

DS- relevant to a key figure in MJs false accusations, although nowadays it makes me think of Dan Reed.

Money- relevant to financial corruption/exploitation. Also relevant to WR and JS after they recently asked for 400 million. I would also say this is relevant to those who get in the headlines using negative stories about MJ.

CT- this felt like the only non relevant song on the album.
Edit- original Beatles song was inspired by a political campaign at the time.

YANA- this also felt somewhat irrelevant but I do find comfort in it after MJs passing.

Childhood- relevant to MJs perspective in light of him still being ridiculed.

TJ- relevant to false news and misinformation, and even how people now believe that if they see it online it makes it true. I always think someone should do an updated version of this with regards to how people get their news today.

2Bad- relevant to MJs false accusations, but could also be relevant to those who feel targeted.

History- relevant in order to put individual or group actions into a wider perspective.

LS- relevant to child abuse/neglect stories we see in news. The part where he sings 'every one came to see the girl that now is dead' metaphorically reminds me of the general public following the news cycle when things like this unfold.

Smile- relevant philosophy in how to approach the world when going through a difficult time.
 
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Maxym said:
I personally felt a change in music messages... the 80s and especially the 90s had many more songs about solidarity, uniting people, possibly all the people... And from 2000 to 2010, I felt the rise of a careless individualism... which matched well with the generalisation of narcissism-driven social media such as Facebook...
Now, I don't listen much to recent music, but whenever I do, messages just feel bland.
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Interesting point. I think social media made people disconnect, therefore society developed (quite fast) in a different direction and music addressed all the concerns people have now.

I wouldn't say just careless individualism, but also that everyone has the right to live their life how he/she/... wants to. Not at all costs, of course. So, that's mainly a good development to me. We just have to learn to reconnect even if we all want to express ourselves freely. In the past people didn't have as much freedom and were more adjusted to society. So we have to learn acceptance.

There are also recent musicians that have great messages in their songs. Just most of the times these are bands/artists who are not as famous. I often listen to rock/punk bands, they have the best lyrics imo.
 
jasmine.uddin said:
CT- this felt like the only non relevant song on the album.
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It did?

It's literally the most political song on the album. The title and lyrical content started out as an actual campaign song, for when Timothy Leary ran for governor of California against Ronald Reagan... It's all about voting.
 
R1chard said:
It did?

It's literally the most political song on the album. The title and lyrical content started out as an actual campaign song, for when Timothy Leary ran for governor of California against Ronald Reagan... It's all about voting.
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I didn't realise the background to the song, I found the lyrics really confusing. I'm not too familiar with Beatles songs so wasn't aware of this. Thanks for sharing.

I do vaguely recall that the Beatles may have copied this song from a black artist though?

So that makes all but YANA very relevant today. That's pretty incredible for an album that was made 30 years ago. But also sad that it's all still relevant today.
 
R1chard said:
[...] It's literally the most political song on the album. The title and lyrical content started out as an actual campaign song, for when Timothy Leary ran for governor of California against Ronald Reagan... It's all about voting.
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It started out that way but the end result really isn't political, imo.

Sample lyric:

"He bag production, he got walrus gumboot"

According to George Martin John Lennon wrote the lyrics in a similar way to 'I Am A Walrus', based around ad-lib vocal sounds. He did nick the line "here comes old flat-top" from Chuck Berry and there was a lawsuit.
 
zinniabooklover said:
It started out that way but the end result really isn't political, imo.

Sample lyric:

"He bag production, he got walrus gumboot"

According to George Martin John Lennon wrote the lyrics in a similar way to 'I Am A Walrus', based around ad-lib vocal sounds. He did nick the line "here comes old flat-top" from Chuck Berry and there was a lawsuit.
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Thanks for the clarification.

Might be better phrased as a song inspired by the political events at the time rather than about them, as on re reading the lyrics it's very difficult to find political references in it (aside from the CT wording from a political slogan) and generally the song comes across as incoherent.
 
jasmine.uddin said:
SIM- relevant to MJs false accusations post death. (...)
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Oh, OK. I was thinking of links relevant to the state of current world in history/geopolitics, not relating to MJ things directly, but OK.

someplace_else said:
We just have to learn to reconnect even if we all want to express ourselves freely. In the past people didn't have as much freedom and were more adjusted to society. So we have to learn acceptance.
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I don't think the tools that were built and how they evolved are right for this. As I see them still disconnecting and controlling individuals. And taking real control of the tools is too demanding in all kind of ways.

someplace_else said:
There are also recent musicians that have great messages in their songs. Just most of the times these are bands/artists who are not as famous. I often listen to rock/punk bands, they have the best lyrics imo.
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Yeah I listened to a lot of punk bands too (who often have more thoughtful lyrics in various ways) *, and stuff that's never heard on the radio. But I count these as marginal cases, I was only considering music that everyone hears, promoted and broadcasted music that one hears even if they didn't choose to.

* I have a very old thread somewhere in this forum's past where I had I had the hypothesis that for for me, Dangerous (a little bit) and especially HIStory have a kind-of-punk aspect in them. (May be the thread where I asked about the use of the word "skinhead" in the beginning of TDCAU , maybe some other...)
 
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Maxym said:
Oh, OK. I was thinking of links relevant to the state of current world in history/geopolitics, not relating to MJ things directly, but OK.



I don't think the tools that were built and how they evolved are right for this. As I see them still disconnecting and controlling individuals. And taking real control of the tools is too demanding in all kind of ways.



Yeah I listened to a lot of punk bands too (who often have more thoughtful lyrics in various ways) *, and stuff that's never heard on the radio. But I count these as marginal cases, I was only considering music that everyone hears, promoted and broadcasted music that one hears even if they didn't choose to.

* I have a very old thread somewhere in this forum's past where I had I had the hypothesis that for for me, Dangerous (a little bit) and especially HIStory have a kind-of-punk aspect in them. (May be the thread where I asked about the use of the word "skinhead" in the beginning of TDCAU , maybe some other...)
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Yes, social media and the fake world around it is the biggest problem imo.

And a lot of topics Michael addresses are also addressed by punk bands. Criticizing society and pointing out what is really important. I see that, too and these are my favourite kind of songs 👍.
 
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