Invitation to contact the Estate about MJ streams issue on Spotify

[AcielTwilight]

Hello everyone,

I am today writing this to ask for help to bring an issue about MJ streams on Spotify to the Estate. The goal would be to make that change before either the Halloween season or the Biopic era.

Here is the problem, a lot of Michael Jackson songs on Spotify are suffering from a HUGE issue: they are not combined. As an example, Thriller has two different versions, the album version which has 750 million streams, and the Single Version from 'The Essential Michael Jackson' has 137 million streams. Why is this a problem?

1. If it was combined, all the daily streams would go to Thriller, and we would be up to 887 million streams (close to 1 billion)
2. For Halloween 2024 (2024/10/31), Thriller (album version) reached #12 on the Top Songs (Spotify Charts) and the Single Version reached #57.
If both songs were combined, it would have reached #4.

A lot of songs are suffering from the same problem : Black or White (album version and single version) : both having approximately 250 million streams. So it would be a total of 500 million streams combined. It is also lowering the total streams for the album.

You Rock My World has 3 versions and Invincible, the album is not getting much streams on a daily basis, even less when there is 3 versions of a song uncombined :
- The album version is doing ~150k daily streams. Meanwhile the 2 others versions are doing a total of 80k daily streams => 230k.
And instead of having a total of 320+ million streams, the 3 versions have : 112,445,295 streams, 32,573,146 streams AND 181,899,114 streams.

I think from those examples, you can see where is it a problem and a priority. Especially when Michael will get a huge boost in streams during the Biopic era.

It would be great if as many of us as possible could reach out the Estate/MJ Online Team via email, as this is very penalizing.
You can reach out to them by contacting Chuck (chuck@mjonlineteam.com)

A list of all the uncombined songs (excluding Motown songs):
- Black or White (version album Dangerous) & Black or White - Single Version
- Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough (Version album Off The Wall : 615,731,956 streams & 2003 Edit: 56,072,992 streams)
- Earth Song (Album version & 2003 edit)
- Heal the World (Version Dangerous album) & Heal the World (7" Edit)
- Human Nature (Version Thriller album) & Human Nature (7" Edit)
- In The Closet (Version Dangerous album) & In The Closet (Single Version)
- Man In The Mirror (Version Bad album) & Man In The Mirror (2003 Edit)
- Off The Wall (Version album) & Off the Wall (version The Essential Michael Jackson)
- Rock With You (Version album) & Rock With You (Single Version)
- Stranger in Moscow (Version album) & Stranger in Moscow (version King of Pop compilation)
- The Way You Make Me Feel (Version Bad album) & The Way You Make Me Feel (Single version)
- Thriller (version album) & Thriller (Single Version)
- Wanna Be Startin Somethin' (version album) & Wanna Be Startin Somethin' (Single version)
- Who Is It (version Dangerous album) & Who Is It (7" Edit)
- Will You Be There (Version Dangerous album) et Will You Be There (Single Version)
- You Are Not Alone (Version album, Radio Edit & Single version)
- You Rock My World (Version album, radio edit & version The Essential Michael Jackson)

 

[jasmine.uddin]

Hello everyone,

I am today writing this to ask for help to bring an issue about MJ streams on Spotify to the Estate. The goal would be to make that change before either the Halloween season or the Biopic era.

Here is the problem, a lot of Michael Jackson songs on Spotify are suffering from a HUGE issue: they are not combined. As an example, Thriller has two different versions, the album version which has 750 million streams, and the Single Version from 'The Essential Michael Jackson' has 137 million streams. Why is this a problem?

1. If it was combined, all the daily streams would go to Thriller, and we would be up to 887 million streams (close to 1 billion)
2. For Halloween 2024 (2024/10/31), Thriller (album version) reached #12 on the Top Songs (Spotify Charts) and the Single Version reached #57.
If both songs were combined, it would have reached #4.

A lot of songs are suffering from the same problem : Black or White (album version and single version) : both having approximately 250 million streams. So it would be a total of 500 million streams combined. It is also lowering the total streams for the album.

You Rock My World has 3 versions and Invincible, the album is not getting much streams on a daily basis, even less when there is 3 versions of a song uncombined :
- The album version is doing ~150k daily streams. Meanwhile the 2 others versions are doing a total of 80k daily streams => 230k.
And instead of having a total of 320+ million streams, the 3 versions have : 112,445,295 streams, 32,573,146 streams AND 181,899,114 streams.

I think from those examples, you can see where is it a problem and a priority. Especially when Michael will get a huge boost in streams during the Biopic era.

It would be great if as many of us as possible could reach out the Estate/MJ Online Team via email, as this is very penalizing.
You can reach out to them by contacting Chuck (chuck@mjonlineteam.com)

A list of all the uncombined songs (excluding Motown songs):
- Black or White (version album Dangerous) & Black or White - Single Version
- Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough (Version album Off The Wall : 615,731,956 streams & 2003 Edit: 56,072,992 streams)
- Earth Song (Album version & 2003 edit)
- Heal the World (Version Dangerous album) & Heal the World (7" Edit)
- Human Nature (Version Thriller album) & Human Nature (7" Edit)
- In The Closet (Version Dangerous album) & In The Closet (Single Version)
- Man In The Mirror (Version Bad album) & Man In The Mirror (2003 Edit)
- Off The Wall (Version album) & Off the Wall (version The Essential Michael Jackson)
- Rock With You (Version album) & Rock With You (Single Version)
- Stranger in Moscow (Version album) & Stranger in Moscow (version King of Pop compilation)
- The Way You Make Me Feel (Version Bad album) & The Way You Make Me Feel (Single version)
- Thriller (version album) & Thriller (Single Version)
- Wanna Be Startin Somethin' (version album) & Wanna Be Startin Somethin' (Single version)
- Who Is It (version Dangerous album) & Who Is It (7" Edit)
- Will You Be There (Version Dangerous album) et Will You Be There (Single Version)
- You Are Not Alone (Version album, Radio Edit & Single version)
- You Rock My World (Version album, radio edit & version The Essential Michael Jackson)

Thanks for sharing, it looks like combining the songs would make a huge difference to the streaming numbers.
As I don't know much about the streaming world I have a couple of questions, do we know if there is a specific reason why the songs are not currently combined? And is this something uncommon in the streaming world?

 

[R1chard]

To be honest, this is something that affects a lot of artists. It's not worth fixing because

1. In a lot of cases the versions are legitimately different (maybe obe version is 3 minutes and the other is 7 minutes)
2. Nobody cares if Thriller got to #4 in some made-up chart that doesn't matter.

 

[archonten]

Thanks for sharing, it looks like combining the songs would make a huge difference to the streaming numbers.
As I don't know much about the streaming world I have a couple of questions, do we know if there is a specific reason why the songs are not currently combined? And is this something uncommon in the streaming world?

Some versions are different. For example, the album version of Black or White has an intro while the single version has it removed and begins with the guitar riff. Some of the rest listed are the same, just from Number Ones or The Essential MJ, and have no differences.

 

[AcielTwilight]

Thanks for sharing, it looks like combining the songs would make a huge difference to the streaming numbers.
As I don't know much about the streaming world I have a couple of questions, do we know if there is a specific reason why the songs are not currently combined? And is this something uncommon in the streaming world?

A few artists are suffering from this, especially legacy artists that I can name from head: Michael Jackson, Donna Summer, Madonna used to have uncombined songs that have been combined by her team now, same with Mariah Carey, The Jacksons...

The reason that those songs are not combined is probably that they have been uploaded on Spotify as they were with the albums, but nobody bothered to say that X song and X song are the same but shorter.
Single version and Radio Edit should be combined

 

[AcielTwilight]

To be honest, this is something that affects a lot of artists. It's not worth fixing because

1. In a lot of cases the versions are legitimately different (maybe obe version is 3 minutes and the other is 7 minutes)
2. Nobody cares if Thriller got to #4 in some made-up chart that doesn't matter.

Streams is the most important measure nowadays, and a good thing to see the longevity of an artist. It would be a huge loss to not being able to reach the #1 place of the most-used streaming platform of the world because a song is not combined. By the way, a #1 spot means it has been the most streamed song on a given day.
Some artists have combined songs that are not the same length

 

[R1chard]

Streams is the most important measure nowadays

I simply don't see how it's important. They aren't sales charts, they don't represent anybody buying a copy of Thriller.

Like, even sales charts don't mean anything, but when it's streaming it means even less.

It would be a huge loss to not being able to reach the #1 place of the most-used streaming platform of the world because a song is not combined

It really wouldn't. Half the time a song is played on Spotify, the person isn't actually in the room to listen to it, lol.

By the way, a #1 spot means it has been the most streamed song on a given day.

But nobody cares about that. It's just trivial. Certainly of no interest to anybody who's not working in the music industry.

 

[@mjfanatic777]

I simply don't see how it's important. They aren't sales charts, they don't represent anybody buying a copy of Thriller.

when you stream a song, the artist gets some money so basically it's like a mini purchase from the artist. also when your song is number one, that means your popular (which is super important)

 

[someplace_else]

I simply don't see how it's important. They aren't sales charts, they don't represent anybody buying a copy of Thriller.

Like, even sales charts don't mean anything, but when it's streaming it means even less.


It really wouldn't. Half the time a song is played on Spotify, the person isn't actually in the room to listen to it, lol.


But nobody cares about that. It's just trivial. Certainly of no interest to anybody who's not working in the music industry.

I agree in one point: I don't really care about these numbers.

But you just assume things and point it out as facts "the person isn't actually in the room to listen to it" ...? Is there a study about that

I think these numbers nowadays are as important as the charts in the past. And again, I personally don't care a lot about that. But to say they are not important at all is just wrong.

 

[innuendo141]

Well if they are incorrect, then I guess it won't hurt anyone to contact them.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

There's a lot they could stand to do. Add single versions of tracks with the remixes and B-Sides also.

 

[AcielTwilight]

Well if they are incorrect, then I guess it won't hurt anyone to contact them.

I agree in one point: I don't really care about these numbers.

I think these numbers nowadays are as important as the charts in the past. And again, I personally don't care a lot about that. But to say they are not important at all is just wrong.

A few of us have already contacted them about the issue, explaining in detail why it is a bigger deal than it may seem when someone is not interested in MJ's streams or stats on Spotify (and YouTube)

Statistics are an important measure today, and I totally understand that some people absolutely don't care about them, which is fine. But this is really one of the measure saying "Even though Michael died in 2009 before the Youtube era and Streaming era, his numbers are still holding up to this day against current artists and very popular ones."

Remember the 'Billie Jean for 1 billion' campaign a few years ago on Spotify and YouTube? If Billie Jean had had a second version with, for example, 40% of the streams, it would have taken much longer to achieve this goal.

At the end of the day, it may seem like a small detail, but it's a very important one in the long run, and it could be easily fixed.

If you have any further questions, feel free to ask!

 

[innuendo141]

Its clear they did something in the last few years to his catalog online. Number Ones was consistently in the top 100 albums in Ireland ever since the streaming era began. All of a sudden, "The Essential" started climbing and has now completely replaced Number Ones as getting all the streaming numbers as its completely disappeared. It makes sense for a better compilation to be more visible, but Number Ones had such an impressive "weeks on the chart" figure that it was always among the albums with most longevity on the chart.

I haven't checked it religiously in a long while but its currently #26, even beating Queens Greatest Hits for the last while.

So, while I dont really care about streaming, its the be all and end all of chart data today. If its going to be recorded, it should be done correctly.

 

[R1chard]

when you stream a song, the artist gets some money so basically it's like a mini purchase from the artist

And even then, it doesn't matter. We need to stop caring how rich these singers are. That doesn't make the music any better.

Also, I can guarantee you that MJ doesn't receive any money.

also when your song is number one, that means your popular (which is super important)

No.

It just isn't.

I'm sure Sony want you to think it's super important, but ultimately it's just a number that doesn't affect anything.

Apparently the number one singer on Spotify right now is Bruno Mars. Great. I couldn't care less. That's no guarantee I'll like him. Even if I did like him, I still wouldn't care if he was number one.

The only person that's affected by this is Bruno Mars and his accountant.

But you just assume things and point it out as facts "the person isn't actually in the room to listen to it" ...? Is there a study about that

Something like 80% of Spotify is passive listeners. They don't select the singer or song they want, they just blindly listen to whatever editorial or algorithmic playlist is served to them. It's basically a radio station. And a lot of them leave it running, day and night, whether they're in the room or not.

They do the same with TV.

I think these numbers nowadays are as important as the charts in the past.

They're too open to manipulation. Anybody can orchestrate a campaign where clients or bots keep spamming a song on repeat. They're not a reflection or taste.

 

[someplace_else]

Apparently the number one singer on Spotify right now is Bruno Mars. Great. I couldn't care less. That's no guarantee I'll like him. Even if I did like him, I still wouldn't care if he was number one.

The only person that's affected by this is Bruno Mars and his accountant.

Well...it's not about you? I am sure people who are in the Spotify Top 10, Top 50 (whatever) are more likely to be in the "suggestions for you" - category. So, that's pretty good advertising -> even more listeners -> more sold CD's, tour tickets, merchandise, whatever...

Something like 80% of Spotify is passive listeners. They don't select the singer or song they want, they just blindly listen to whatever editorial or algorithmic playlist is served to them. It's basically a radio station. And a lot of them leave it running, day and night, whether they're in the room or not.

They do the same with TV.

They're too open to manipulation. Anybody can orchestrate a campaign where clients or bots keep spamming a song on repeat. They're not a reflection or taste.

Sources?

 

[innuendo141]

And even then, it doesn't matter. We need to stop caring how rich these singers are. That doesn't make the music any better.

Also, I can guarantee you that MJ doesn't receive any money.


No.

It just isn't.

I'm sure Sony want you to think it's super important, but ultimately it's just a number that doesn't affect anything.

Apparently the number one singer on Spotify right now is Bruno Mars. Great. I couldn't care less. That's no guarantee I'll like him. Even if I did like him, I still wouldn't care if he was number one.

The only person that's affected by this is Bruno Mars and his accountant.


Something like 80% of Spotify is passive listeners. They don't select the singer or song they want, they just blindly listen to whatever editorial or algorithmic playlist is served to them. It's basically a radio station. And a lot of them leave it running, day and night, whether they're in the room or not.

They do the same with TV.


They're too open to manipulation. Anybody can orchestrate a campaign where clients or bots keep spamming a song on repeat. They're not a reflection or taste.

I think youre completely missing OPs point to be honest. If you don't care, that's you. You shouldn't jump on people who might just because you disagree.

 

[R1chard]

Well...it's not about you?

No it's not.

Is it about you? How much money do you stand to make if Thriller gets to #1?

I am sure people who are in the Spotify Top 10, Top 50 (whatever) are more likely to be in the "suggestions for you" - category.

But so what? It's just numbers in an algorithm.

So, that's pretty good advertising -> even more listeners -> more sold CD's, tour tickets, merchandise, whatever...

What's the end goal? Why do you consider profit margins so important?

Do you care which paint manufacturer has the biggest market share? Do you obsess over rankings of belt buckle shops to see who sells the most? No, of course you don't, because that would be dumb. So why is it just music that has this strange power over you?

Sources?

I don't normally do sources, as a matter of policy, but in this case I'm interested to see what a blown mind looks like.

Audio apps and their passive listening behaviors

Our latest Retro activity looks at audio apps and how people are listening. Audio is unique as it is consumed passively and actively. As the data demonstrates, most of the audio consumption is happening while the app is running in the background and only a small percentage while the app is on...

measureprotocol.com

I think youre completely missing OPs point to be honest. If you don't care, that's you. You shouldn't jump on people who might just because you disagree.

I'm sure the estate knows how streaming works. I'm sure they know how PR works.

If they don't, then, frankly, they don't deserve to have any success.

Again, this doubling up happens all the time with every artist. It's just a function of the way albums are treated as serial numbers. You are bound to get duplicate IDs as things are rereleased, re-edited, remastered, put on compilations, etc. Just deal with it.

Clearly the estate has taken the decision that it doesn't matter.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Too many discussions being deflated by a fuddy duddy lately.

 

[Spaceship]

I use Tidal, anyway.

 

[innuendo141]

No it's not.

Is it about you? How much money do you stand to make if Thriller gets to #1?


But so what? It's just numbers in an algorithm.


What's the end goal? Why do you consider profit margins so important?

Do you care which paint manufacturer has the biggest market share? Do you obsess over rankings of belt buckle shops to see who sells the most? No, of course you don't, because that would be dumb. So why is it just music that has this strange power over you?


I don't normally do sources, as a matter of policy, but in this case I'm interested to see what a blown mind looks like.

Audio apps and their passive listening behaviors

Our latest Retro activity looks at audio apps and how people are listening. Audio is unique as it is consumed passively and actively. As the data demonstrates, most of the audio consumption is happening while the app is running in the background and only a small percentage while the app is on...

measureprotocol.com

I'm sure the estate knows how streaming works. I'm sure they know how PR works.

If they don't, then, frankly, they don't deserve to have any success.

Again, this doubling up happens all the time with every artist. It's just a function of the way albums are treated as serial numbers. You are bound to get duplicate IDs as things are rereleased, re-edited, remastered, put on compilations, etc. Just deal with it.

Clearly the estate has taken the decision that it doesn't matter.

But, are we allowed to continue to discuss it, or do you want us to stop as you are the one clearly getting most worked up and upset for whatever reason.

 

[someplace_else]

No it's not.

Is it about you? How much money do you stand to make if Thriller gets to #1?

As I stated before, I personally don't care about numbers. But you use your "I don't care, so it doesn't matter" as an argument in many topics, that's what I wanted to point out.

But so what? It's just numbers in an algorithm.


What's the end goal? Why do you consider profit margins so important?

Do you care which paint manufacturer has the biggest market share? Do you obsess over rankings of belt buckle shops to see who sells the most? No, of course you don't, because that would be dumb. So why is it just music that has this strange power over you?


I don't normally do sources, as a matter of policy, but in this case I'm interested to see what a blown mind looks like.

Audio apps and their passive listening behaviors

Our latest Retro activity looks at audio apps and how people are listening. Audio is unique as it is consumed passively and actively. As the data demonstrates, most of the audio consumption is happening while the app is running in the background and only a small percentage while the app is on...

measureprotocol.com

The source is just some website writing something. I googled it and different sites say other percentages of passive listeners. Also doesn't really matter, I wanted to point out that you just throw numbers into the room and act like it's a fact without even posting (reliable) sources.

Nevermind.

So, I always forget about AI, it gave me an answer, yay... praise AI...or sth like that.

"Here's a more detailed look at why streams matter:
1. Visibility and Discoverability:

• Algorithmic and Editorial Playlists:
  Spotify's algorithms and curated playlists, like "Discover Weekly" and "New Music Friday," play a crucial role in music discovery. A high number of streams can increase the chances of an artist's music being featured on these playlists, exposing them to a wider audience.
  
• Social Proof:
  A high stream count can act as social proof, signaling to new listeners that an artist's music is worth checking out.
  
• Industry Recognition:
  Labels, press, and other industry professionals often look at streaming numbers as an indicator of an artist's potential and popularity.
  

2. Revenue:

• Royalties:
  While the per-stream royalty rate is low (typically between $0.003 and $0.005), consistent streams can still generate a substantial income, especially for artists with a large fanbase.
  
• Potential for Growth:
  As an artist's fanbase grows through streaming, it opens up opportunities for other revenue streams like merchandise sales, ticket sales, and sync licensing.
  

3. Data and Insights:

• Spotify for Artists:
  Spotify's platform provides artists with valuable data on their streams, listener demographics, and playlist appearances.
• Strategic Decisions:
  This data can be used to make informed decisions about marketing, touring, and future releases.
  

4. Overall Impact:

• Career Advancement:
  High stream counts can significantly contribute to an artist's career growth, leading to more opportunities and recognition within the industry.
• Brand Building:
  Streaming success can help artists build a strong brand and establish themselves as a recognizable force in the music scene.
  

In conclusion, while the direct financial impact of Spotify streams might not be substantial for all artists, the broader implications of streaming numbers for visibility, career growth, and data-driven decision-making make them a crucial aspect of an artist's overall success."

But you can also just point out: it's important to stay in people's minds and to be talked about, so the music will be played in the next 10, 20, 100 years - marketing, yadda, yadda...

 

[R1chard]

But, are we allowed to continue to discuss it, or do you want us to stop as you are the one clearly getting most worked up and upset for whatever reason.

Sure, go ahead.

My whole response was about why I'm NOT getting worked up about these numbers, lol.

But yeah, I've made the point. The estate is aware the numbers are split, and they didn't/won't/can't do anything about it. The premise won't achieve anything, and I'm not gonna continue to bump the thread.

So, I always forget about AI, it gave me an answer, yay... praise AI...or sth like that.

"Here's a more detailed look at why streams matter:

It seems the AI answered the wrong question. Everything there in that response assumes you typed in "why do streams matter FOR ARTISTS".

If you're not an artist, then...

 

[someplace_else]

It seems the AI answered the wrong question. Everything there in that response assumes you typed in "why do streams matter FOR ARTISTS".

If you're not an artist, then...

We already figured out that it's about the importance for the artist called Michael Jackson and not if it's important to you or me.

 

[zinniabooklover]

I don't think MJE is receptive to any input from Michael's fanbase. I think the OP has identified a specific problem and expressed legit concerns. I'm not convinced MJE cares. If Madonna's team has fixed this, MJE obviously could. Clearly they don't want to. I'm not surprised.

Not sure if AI can add much to the debate, tbh, bc it's just another mechanical algorithm. There's always another side to the story. Apparently, in 2020 when Discovery Mode* was introduced Spotify reduced the royalty rate by 30% for artists participating in the scheme. Bit of a win-lose for the artists, it seems to me.

(*Discovery Mode presumably something different to Discover Weekly)

I think streaming data is kinda meaningless, lol, bc I'm a physical media / old-school pop charts person. Otoh, I did just post Michael's most streamed daily songs on Spotify and Chicago is hanging in there at No.3 which I think is really cool. It's fair to say I have mixed feelings!

 

[kai]

who cares about the numbers?

 

[zinniabooklover]

who cares about the numbers?

Some people do.

I think this is really cool


"Michael Jackson’s ‘They Don’t Care About Us’ (Brazil version) has now surpassed 1.2 BILLION views on YouTube !"
(@kxthrills)