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any more news on missing cctv tapes?

We must work together in collaboration to be the most productive. I think most here can do that, and we value a variety in the input here. If you would like to redesign the I.U., I'm sure your ideas would be important and I suggest you contact admin? In the meantime, can we please return to the topic? That would be very appreciated, I'm sure.
 
I thank you Beachlover, Victoria83 and callmerose! What I've read from you three are amazing and I hope that you gals can work together to make the I.U. a better place. I really appreciate the responses here. I hope you guys PM one another and throw around some ideas!

OK back on topic. :) :clapping:
 
I agree with all 3 of us. Callmerose said "That is why I am always searching for "facts and proof". In my research, I cannot publish anything without the data to back it up."

I totally understand this way of thinking as that is how I must also think when I am approaching medicine but even there; there is speculation as to science. A blood test for example will show us many things but we can not make a determination on that alone and must explore other things. Often psychology plays a big part in medicine and that is something Michael himself understood.

BoG is correct also. Scientists are frequently called upon to render "best professional judgment" on a question for which quantification and certainty may not be possible or affordable. The "weight of evidence" must prevail. Most importantly, science is not just for scientists. The scientific method is something we can all incorporate into every aspect of our daily lives by being critical thinkers.

Absolutely. We have here a case of someone who is found dead and there are some facts that are specifically known and then there are facts that are not known. There are also things which we have seen regarding the doctor and people that lived in that house. There is the human factor involved.

And Victoria We KNOW, some of us, how to do scientific research? There are logical steps. We are not actually able to do that here

We actually can do that here too. There is no reason why we can not. However, I agree that there are some here who, for whatever reason, can not deal with the facts that are presented to them and can't hear logic. They have their own issues to deal with and perhaps we need to stay out of those threads where we realize people are not thinking on the same lines at all and can not see our logic?

I think it is very hard for the moderators to let things ride at times but it is sometimes necessary to do just that because unresolved conflict and issues will just keep resurfacing over and over until there is some conclusion or the posters figure out that it is tic tac toe and no one will win in the end.

What you posted about Tohme was mostly fact and then there is speculation beyond that fact that can be discussed.

Regarding the tapes that BoG is so interested in, I think investigation into whether they exist or not is on his mind clearly, and his (or her) mind is nagging him to persue this area. Why not allow it?

It is allowed to explore Grace the Nanny even though it clearly irritates others, it is allowed to speak about Nurse Lee; whether she is lying or telling the truth and it should be allowed to discuss other theories and facts too.

If you specifically know something that you can't post here, I'd suggest you keep that information to yourself and just allow a thread to take its natural course. We aren't all privy to insider fan information and quite frankly, the way the family is at this stage I don't know if I would believe what comes directly from their mouth either. Thats just my personal opinion, but it is how I truly feel. No names mentioned but there are certain members of that family that I have known to lie in interviews and I would not believe a thing they said, so to me, that kind of insider information is as useful as talking to my sister when she has been drinking.

I mean no disrespect but this is exactly how I see it.
 
Trish said:
I thank you Beachlover, Victoria83 and callmerose! What I've read from you three are amazing and I hope that you gals can work together to make the I.U. a better place. I really appreciate the responses here. I hope you guys PM one another and throw around some ideas!

OK back on topic. :) :clapping:
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You are welcome and oh my....my post crossed yours.

Icksnay on the long winded thread posted before. So sorry.

Ok....back to the Closed Circuit Video Tapes discussion......
 
Beachlover said:
I agree with all 3 of us. Callmerose said "That is why I am always searching for "facts and proof". In my research, I cannot publish anything without the data to back it up."

I totally understand this way of thinking as that is how I must also think when I am approaching medicine but even there; there is speculation as to science. A blood test for example will show us many things but we can not make a determination on that alone and must explore other things. Often psychology plays a big part in medicine and that is something Michael himself understood.

And Victoria We KNOW, some of us, how to do scientific research? There are logical steps. We are not actually able to do that here

We actually can do that here too. There is no reason why we can not. However, I agree that there are some here who, for whatever reason, can not deal with the facts that are presented to them and can't hear logic. They have their own issues to deal with and perhaps we need to stay out of those threads where we realize people are not thinking on the same lines at all and can not see our logic?

What you posted about Tohme was mostly fact and then there is speculation beyond that fact that can be discussed.

Regarding the tapes that BoG is so interested in, I think investigation into whether they exist or not is on his mind clearly, and his (or her) mind is nagging him to persue this area. Why not allow it?
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I see no reason why both qualitative and scientific research can't happen here, and both certainly are allowed. I, myself, didn't call for any changes in this forum, but am willing to look at various viewpoints and follow what is best, depending on consensus? All we really need to do is be respectful of both approaches, and I see no problem with that. ALL of it adds to knowledge, so. . thank you.

Vic
 
Several days to a week after Michael passed, my mom asked me if I had heard anything on the news about surveillance tapes disappearing. I said no and asked what she was talking about. She specifically told me that she had seen a story on CNN that discussed cctv tapes possibly being stolen from the house, tapes from June 25th. Whether or not those tapes were supposedly from Michael's room, I do not know. I went online and did some research, but came up pretty empty-handed. I have not looked for anything regarding the issue since, so who knows if anything has popped up on the Internet. I just wanted to put this out there for anyone who is still doubting that the story existed. It did.
 
mnj1985 said:
Several days to a week after Michael passed, my mom asked me if I had heard anything on the news about surveillance tapes disappearing. I said no and asked what she was talking about. She specifically told me that she had seen a story on CNN that discussed cctv tapes possibly being stolen from the house, tapes from June 25th. Whether or not those tapes were supposedly from Michael's room, I do not know. I went online and did some research, but came up pretty empty-handed. I have not looked for anything regarding the issue since, so who knows if anything has popped up on the Internet. I just wanted to put this out there for anyone who is still doubting that the story existed. It did.
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Thank you. Of COURSE the story existed. Many of us heard it, whether or not it now can be found in URLs. The "news" is not impartial, but selective. I'm hoping that the LAPD are on top of this?
 
There are still stories out there but they aren't saying the same thing so it is a moot point to post them here. One says the police didn't get the warrant soon enough and the tapes disappeared and another says 30 minutes are missing and they were at the immediate time after the death.

Either way, we don't know what is real or if the police recovered anything.

To be a fly on that wall.......
 
Beachlover said:
There are still stories out there but they aren't saying the same thing so it is a moot point to post them here. One says the police didn't get the warrant soon enough and the tapes disappeared and another says 30 minutes are missing and they were at the immediate time after the death.

Either way, we don't know what is real or if the police recovered anything.

To be a fly on that wall.......
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You are quite RIGHT. We don't know, and it's frustrating. I KNOW I heard on CNN that the tapes were missing, but nothing else was ever reported about it. There are really only two possibilities. That the tapes went missing, and that is incredibly incriminating, to someone. OR, that the police recovered the tapes. One thing I find interesting and encouraging, is that they haven't SAID? The lack of "leaks" is encouraging?

I doubt Michael had a camera in his own room. What there would have been were security tapes of who went in and out of the house that night. I DO hope the LAPD have the tapes!
 
Victoria83 said:
You are quite RIGHT. We don't know, and it's frustrating. I KNOW I heard on CNN that the tapes were missing, but nothing else was ever reported about it. There are really only two possibilities. That the tapes went missing, and that is incredibly incriminating, to someone. OR, that the police recovered the tapes. One thing I find interesting and encouraging, is that they haven't SAID? The lack of "leaks" is encouraging?

I doubt Michael had a camera in his own room. What there would have been were security tapes of who went in and out of the house that night. I DO hope the LAPD have the tapes!
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Yes, back to the tapes. I don't think he would have had a video camera in his room either. Since people in the past had stolen his home videos and tried to get him to pay to get them back. It would be too risky to have personal footage like that. But I definitely think he would have had 24 hour surveilliance outside in multiple places. He had to for the safety of his family. I have been searching for old news reports on the tapes and in my archives. No luck so far. Just the tabloids and the Nancy Grace pieces.

Another angle on the missing tapes. Maybe whoever took them did it for the right reasons, so the "wrong" people wouldn't get them first.
 
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Thanks, Callmerose! Back on track, finally. And now, can everyone be civilized and let everyone else speak without "challenges?" That would be very much appreciated.

Carry on,

Vic
 
Understood completely... the message could not be more clear...
 
callmerose said:
Yes, back to the tapes. I don't think he would have had a video camera in his room either. Since people in the past had stolen his home videos and tried to get him to pay to get them back. It would be too risky to have personal footage like that. But I definitely think he would have had 24 hour surveilliance outside in multiple places. He had to for the safety of his family. I have been searching for old news reports on the tapes and in my archives. No luck so far. Just the tabloids and the Nancy Grace pieces.

Another angle on the missing tapes. Maybe whoever took them did it for the right reasons, so the "wrong" people wouldn't get them first.
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Could there have been cameras in the corridors of the house, maybe showing when and if murray left mj's room? or is that unlikely?
 
I thought MJ wasn't even in his room when he died. i thought he was a room set aside for Murray. Maybe he would have videotapes there? At the very least as mentioned, he would probably have them in the corridors and that would corroborate and deny Murray's time frames for when he did things. But I'm would think Murray would not knw where the video tapes are actually located. So someone else with something to lose would have to have moved them if they are in fact missing. there are so many "What If's". I wish we did have something more concrete. There are an infinite number of possibilities that can occur. At least if we had some information that would allow to us to come up with the most likely scenarios.

MJs surveillance company recently filled a creditors claim against the estate saying MJ had not been paying them. If that is the case, the security might not even having been working to begin with. Who knows.
 
ginvid said:
MJs surveillance company recently filled a creditors claim against the estate saying MJ had not been paying them. If that is the case, the security might not even having been working to begin with. Who knows.
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There were cameras that we are sure were at the doors but we don't know about what was inside the house. As Calmerose pointed out, he had issues at one time with someone trying to sell a tape from his bedroom and he probably didn't feel the need to have that on film. Perhaps the hall leading to and from; but we simply don't know. This was a rented house so it isn't the same as his own residence.
 
Beachlover said:
There were cameras that we are sure were at the doors but we don't know about what was inside the house. As Calmerose pointed out, he had issues at one time with someone trying to sell a tape from his bedroom and he probably didn't feel the need to have that on film. Perhaps the hall leading to and from; but we simply don't know. This was a rented house so it isn't the same as his own residence.
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Good point, about its being a rented house. The security at Neverland was extensive, but we don't know if the rented house was protected at the same level. I doubt that there would have been a camera in Michael's bedroom, but one in the corridor surely is possible. I'd expect that any entrances to the house would be covered by cameras, as well.

If the tapes went missing before the house was secured as a crime-scene, that remains suspicious. If no one had anything to hide, the tapes would have still been there. There were problems with the "crime-scene" in general. The crime-scene tapes were taken down very quickly (not sure exacty when?), but wasn't it the day after that the family were at the house and discovered cash and jewelry missing?
 
the video mentioned in the warrant did not see murray was seen , it was murray's car and as vic said any entrance probably was covered by cameras , so yeah that's maybe an indication the tapes that were in the house and those which covered the entrances might be missing .

by the way if there were indeed cameras at the entrances , they would show how many times murray brought oxygen tanks to the house , it will help to determine whether he lied about the six weeks of propofol .
 
Soundmind said:
the video mentioned in the warrant did not see murray was seen , it was murray's car and as vic said any entrance probably was covered by cameras , so yeah that's maybe an indication the tapes that were in the house and those which covered the entrances might be missing .

by the way if there were indeed cameras at the entrances , they would show how many times murray brought oxygen tanks to the house , it will help to determine whether he lied about the six weeks of propofol .
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I'm not sure if tapes from the past would be there? I think the way it works is that the tapes recycle, in that they are taped over and over? The tapes from that night/morning are or were SOMEWHERE, but not the past tapes?
 
Soundmind said:
the video mentioned in the warrant did not see murray was seen , it was murray's car and as vic said any entrance probably was covered by cameras , so yeah that's maybe an indication the tapes that were in the house and those which covered the entrances might be missing .

by the way if there were indeed cameras at the entrances , they would show how many times murray brought oxygen tanks to the house , it will help to determine whether he lied about the six weeks of propofol .
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im positive their were cameras at the gates. there's actual video proof of that when the guard is telling some neighbor to turn off his "youtube camera" he had with him when the neighbor was at the gate. but that was the back gate. i remember no one was answering for him at the front gate.

and i dont know if there are cameras after one actually enters the gates. i assume murray would drive his car pass the gate like everyone else.

but i like your point. if there's ANY camera anywhere that would show how many times murray brought the tanks, that is very helpful. also, investigators know what his car looks like. there has to be at least some camera on the outsides (back, front, side entrance, whatever) showing how many times murray actually entered pass those gates to michael's house. i know the chef said he was there in the house many times. but really, who can we believe completley? if i can't believe his personal doctor and his "close friends", then how can i trust his chef?

I'm not sure if tapes from the past would be there? I think the way it works is that the tapes recycle, in that they are taped over and over? The tapes from that night/morning are or were SOMEWHERE, but not the past tapes?
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that would suck. i hope that's not how those tapes were :(

the more i talk about these tapes, and all the loads of important info we can get from them, the more i realize how major they are in this investigation. they're like missing golden clues, or evidence.
 
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yeah some security systems only coveres the perevious 48 hours , some much more , some record much way back , so we don't know , but again the search warrant mentioned murray's car not murray entering . an indication the tapes that show the people entering the actual house might be missing
 
Soundmind said:
the video mentioned in the warrant did not see murray was seen , it was murray's car and as vic said any entrance probably was covered by cameras , so yeah that's maybe an indication the tapes that were in the house and those which covered the entrances might be missing .

by the way if there were indeed cameras at the entrances , they would show how many times murray brought oxygen tanks to the house , it will help to determine whether he lied about the six weeks of propofol .
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There is a guest entrance, an entrance with the Christmas wreaths and I think there is also an entrance to an underground carpark (maybe murrays car was seen going into there). There are definitely cameras at the gate with the Christmas wreaths and I'd assume there would be cameras at the other entrances too. I would think there would be cameras at the doors as well as the gates, and also from another perspective looking back at the house for coverage of windows.

I've just found this:

Michael Jackson has died in Los Angeles after suffering a heart attack at home with his father and his personal magician, Times-Shamrock Newspapers has confirmed.
Times-Shamrock has learned from Kenichi Sugihara, publisher of the book "Michael Jackson: The Man behind the Mask," that a hospital nurse who was a source for the book confirmed Mr. Jackson's death.
Other major media outlets also are now reporting that Mr. Jackson has died. A public statement from the family is expected Thursday evening around 9 p.m., Jackson family sources tell Times-Shamrock.
Mr. Jackson, 50, suffered a massive heart attack and was taken by ambulance to UCLA Medical Center, according to Tohme Tohme, a Jackson spokesperson and confidante. Medical officials attempted to resuscitate him.
Mr. Jackson was at home visiting with his father and his personal magician, Majestic Magnificent, when he had the heart attack.
He arrived at the hopital uncon scious but alive, said brother-in-law Nathaniel Brown.
Referred to as the "King of Pop," Mr. Jackson was one of the biggest pop stars of the 1980s and one of the most popular recording artists of all time. EDITOR'S NOTE: Staff writer Stacy Brown, a former Jackson family friend and author of "Michael Jackson: The Man behind the Mask," is reporting updates. He will write a personal account later this evening after events develop. Please check back for updates.
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Is this right? I've never heard that they were there! The article was published on June 25th.

http://www.citizensvoice.com/news/king-of-pop-michael-jackson-is-dead-1.86257
 
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^^ tabloid crap for tabloid junkies who will believe it. they are obviously making a joke out of the situation. makes me sick.
 
I don't think its supposed to be a joke related to him being a magician, if thats what you mean. I don't know.. just found it strange.
 
EDITOR'S NOTE: Staff writer Stacy Brown, a former Jackson family friend and author of "Michael Jackson: The Man behind the Mask," is reporting updates. He will write a personal account later this evening after events develop. Please check back for updates.
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give me a f@cking break
 
Yes I know its written by him and I'm aware of who he is unfortunately.

Edit: Do we know who was and wasn't in the house?
 
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riviera1992 said:
Sorry don't have time to read all pages but I found this old article reporting on the missing tapes.

Don't think it's reliable though so take it for what it's worth.

http://tinyurl.com/yjf5yhj
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yeah I remember this article ....I believe it is still a mystery what the hell happened to those tapes. And if the police have solved that part of the case they are certainly not telling us. I have been wondering about those tapes for the past 8 months. Lets just hope that they DO have it figured out about those tapes and they have them or Michael never had security camera's in his room.
 
I've also been thinking about those tapes. :scratch:

Certainly there were cameras in the house. But if a company was hired by Michael to monitor the cameras from house (I believe this hypothesis), then these tapes would be with the company and not the house.

I think if this had been investigated by the police, I believe it would have been revealed by the press (or not?). :scratch:
 
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