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Atheist thread
- Thread starter K.O.S.
- Start date
barbee0715
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Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)
^^
Maybe it's something taken out of context like Leviticus is used only by crazed extreme 'Christians'.
(I'm just curious because I've had the argument with people in real life and I've tried to research it myself but I truly don't understand it well enough).
^^
Maybe it's something taken out of context like Leviticus is used only by crazed extreme 'Christians'.
(I'm just curious because I've had the argument with people in real life and I've tried to research it myself but I truly don't understand it well enough).
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HIStory
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Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)
I think like in Christianity you will find people who interpret their religion in a certain way and you will find people who will interpret it in a completely different way. Christian denominations too have many, often opposing interpretations of things, I would imagine it is the same in Islam.
I think what makes Islam more problematic is the fact that Islam does not have a New Testament to tame it like Christianity. In fact, in Islam there is a rule that if there is a contradiction between two verses in the Quran, the one that was written later overwrites the one that was written before. Problem is that through his life Muhammad became more violent as his power grew, so the peaceful verses were typically written earlier while the violent ones later - thus overwriting the earlier peaceful verses. (This is difficult to figure out because the suras of the Quran are not in chronological order.)
While the Old Testament has violent passages just like the Quran, it is very difficult to derive violence from the New Testament or from Jesus' person, even if you are a hard core fundamentalist Christian. Jesus was a peacful carpenter, he never killed anyone, never waged war and taught to "turn the other cheek", among others. Muhammad however was a warlord. He waged wars, he had people killed, he carried out massacres, he had people executed and he had women oppressed (although Muslims would probably argue this was for the benefit of the women).
Another very important difference between Christianity and Islam is the fact that while Christianity is just a religion, Islam is also a political system. This also comes from the fact that Muhammad wasn't just a religious preacher like Jesus, but he was a politician with territorial ambitions. Sharia is supposed to be the law of any country with a muslim majority - it is not just law for those who believe in Islam, it would be obligatory to obey to for everyone, Christians and Jews alike. BTW, Christians and Jews are second class citizens in a land where Sharia rules. They are obliged to pay the jizya, an extra tax and as long as they pay it their lives are spared. If they do not pay it they are going to be either killed or driven away from the land. And they are the lucky ones compared to other religions or atheists who have it even worse under Sharia.
Islam is supposed to be spread all over the world and the ultimate goal is that Sharia, which Muslims consider God's law, rules everywhere. Christianity, on the other hand, doesn't have political ambitions. Yes, throughout history it did have it, but it cannot be derived from the Bible, that's more like just its follower's ambition, than something from the Bible. Jesus ordered his disciples to spread the gospel, but not by the sword and there is not an order to establish any kind of Christian state or Christian theocracy. Jesus was basically apolitical.
This is a big difference between the two religions and this is why it is so difficult to make all muslims accept secular states. Many do accept it, of course, but Islam is a very politically ambitious religion and that makes all the difference compared to Christianity. Islam is thus more than a religion, it is a political ideology with power ambitions, while Christianity is just a religion.
As someone who is an atheist and as such is critical of all religions, including Christianity, I find Islam by far the most problematic and most dangerous religion.
I think like in Christianity you will find people who interpret their religion in a certain way and you will find people who will interpret it in a completely different way. Christian denominations too have many, often opposing interpretations of things, I would imagine it is the same in Islam.
I think what makes Islam more problematic is the fact that Islam does not have a New Testament to tame it like Christianity. In fact, in Islam there is a rule that if there is a contradiction between two verses in the Quran, the one that was written later overwrites the one that was written before. Problem is that through his life Muhammad became more violent as his power grew, so the peaceful verses were typically written earlier while the violent ones later - thus overwriting the earlier peaceful verses. (This is difficult to figure out because the suras of the Quran are not in chronological order.)
While the Old Testament has violent passages just like the Quran, it is very difficult to derive violence from the New Testament or from Jesus' person, even if you are a hard core fundamentalist Christian. Jesus was a peacful carpenter, he never killed anyone, never waged war and taught to "turn the other cheek", among others. Muhammad however was a warlord. He waged wars, he had people killed, he carried out massacres, he had people executed and he had women oppressed (although Muslims would probably argue this was for the benefit of the women).
Another very important difference between Christianity and Islam is the fact that while Christianity is just a religion, Islam is also a political system. This also comes from the fact that Muhammad wasn't just a religious preacher like Jesus, but he was a politician with territorial ambitions. Sharia is supposed to be the law of any country with a muslim majority - it is not just law for those who believe in Islam, it would be obligatory to obey to for everyone, Christians and Jews alike. BTW, Christians and Jews are second class citizens in a land where Sharia rules. They are obliged to pay the jizya, an extra tax and as long as they pay it their lives are spared. If they do not pay it they are going to be either killed or driven away from the land. And they are the lucky ones compared to other religions or atheists who have it even worse under Sharia.
Islam is supposed to be spread all over the world and the ultimate goal is that Sharia, which Muslims consider God's law, rules everywhere. Christianity, on the other hand, doesn't have political ambitions. Yes, throughout history it did have it, but it cannot be derived from the Bible, that's more like just its follower's ambition, than something from the Bible. Jesus ordered his disciples to spread the gospel, but not by the sword and there is not an order to establish any kind of Christian state or Christian theocracy. Jesus was basically apolitical.
This is a big difference between the two religions and this is why it is so difficult to make all muslims accept secular states. Many do accept it, of course, but Islam is a very politically ambitious religion and that makes all the difference compared to Christianity. Islam is thus more than a religion, it is a political ideology with power ambitions, while Christianity is just a religion.
As someone who is an atheist and as such is critical of all religions, including Christianity, I find Islam by far the most problematic and most dangerous religion.
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HIStory
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Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)
Another stupid, artificial term is "Islamophobia". No doubt, constructed after terms such as "homophobia" and with an intent of silencing any criticism of Islam. Thing is Islam is not a race, not a sexual orientation, nothing like that - it is an ideology. And it is very problematic and dangerous when we are not allowed to freely criticize certain ideologies, when people are silenced either by force or by a misguided "political correctness". There is nothing wrong with criticizing ideas, religions, ideologies. It is not equal to homophobia or racism.
It is interesting that many liberals are not sensitive to the criticism of any other religion, in fact they are often the cheerleaders of criticizing Christianity, but when it comes to Islam they suddenly want to be all politically correct and be careful of religious sensitivities. So hypocritical.
Another stupid, artificial term is "Islamophobia". No doubt, constructed after terms such as "homophobia" and with an intent of silencing any criticism of Islam. Thing is Islam is not a race, not a sexual orientation, nothing like that - it is an ideology. And it is very problematic and dangerous when we are not allowed to freely criticize certain ideologies, when people are silenced either by force or by a misguided "political correctness". There is nothing wrong with criticizing ideas, religions, ideologies. It is not equal to homophobia or racism.
It is interesting that many liberals are not sensitive to the criticism of any other religion, in fact they are often the cheerleaders of criticizing Christianity, but when it comes to Islam they suddenly want to be all politically correct and be careful of religious sensitivities. So hypocritical.
Bad World Tour
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Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)
Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)
Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)
analogue
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Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)
You also can't prove that The Tooth Fairy doesn't exist. And the burden of proof is on the person making the claims.
You also can't prove that The Tooth Fairy doesn't exist. And the burden of proof is on the person making the claims.
Bad World Tour
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analogue;4117280 said:
No i can´t prove.
Do you rather believe on a person´s word(For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness,lies, slander.) just open the tv on the news you will see that, I ain no saint neither you MJ ie all men
Iam pretty sure you pass on History class believing on was written in a book or am wrong?
If you did not belive it why you wrote that. If not you fail the class.Something similiar will happen in the "Last Day" all you have to do is belive not good works or good behaviour will save you thats what they told you...
There only 2 Truth one is:
facts 1+1= 2 and other thing... but maybe you all not ready yet and im pretty sure that MJ know what other truth is
well thats why he had the "light" too and we all love him.
i hope my message dont offen you or other person in a way
i apologise if so
hugs
HIStory
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Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)
@Bad World Tour
Please check the title of the thread. This is the atheist thread, so obviously we do not accept Bible verses as some kind of God-inspired truth, nor we care about threats of hellfire as an attempt to pressure us into believing the same things that you do. Please respect that. There is a Christian thread somewhere on this site.
@Bad World Tour
Please check the title of the thread. This is the atheist thread, so obviously we do not accept Bible verses as some kind of God-inspired truth, nor we care about threats of hellfire as an attempt to pressure us into believing the same things that you do. Please respect that. There is a Christian thread somewhere on this site.
SoCav
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Your post does not offend me but I do find your points pretty astounding. You can't compare a history book to religious texts. Historical accounts are based on multiple sources, are open to scrutiny and have been frequently revised when new evidence comes in, and don't contain unverified claims that violate the laws of nature. They do not tell people how to live their life, nor have people all throughout history committed horrible violent actions using history books as their justification (of course historical events often play a role in conflicts, but people obviously do not derive their morals from these books in the way they do with religious books).Bad World Tour;4117288 said:
The idea you mention of 'just having to believe' always astounds me as well. You say that good behaviour and good deeds will not 'save' you, simply believing will. This literally means that a mass murderer who believes will be saved, whereas a wonderful, caring, kindhearted person who does not believe will be condemned to eternal hellfire and brimstone. I would not want to be enslaved to a supernatural being with a set of morals like that. And then some folks say you can't be a moral human being WITHOUT religion...
Michaels Lover
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Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)
exactly what do you mean that he know what "truth is"? and that he had the "light"?
it sounds to me like you're using MJ to say that those who don't believe what he did, aren't as good as he is?? idk, maybe i'm way off, but your post really confused me
exactly what do you mean that he know what "truth is"? and that he had the "light"?
it sounds to me like you're using MJ to say that those who don't believe what he did, aren't as good as he is?? idk, maybe i'm way off, but your post really confused me
Michaels Lover
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LindavG
Proud Member
Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)
I've noticed that religious people tend to use the "out of context" excuse whenever they are confronted with a verse from their holy book that they're not comfortable with. You never hear them complain about context when people quote single feel-good sentences from the Torah/Bible/Quran.
Besides, it is quite a leap to assume there even is a context in which these verses are justifiable, let alone moral. Let's take Leviticus as an example since you mentioned it:
Why kill the animal over something it has no control over? An animal cannot give consent to sexual relations so why does it deserve the same punishment as the woman who tried to abuse it? There is no context around it, this is just the punishment for sin that is laid out in the book and I have yet to hear a moral justification for it. But this is rather mild stuff compared to some of the barbarism in the Bible (dashing babies against rocks, ripping open the bellies of pregnant women, beating slaves so hard that they die, kidnapping girls to use as sex slaves while killing their entire families, etc.). It's a good thing most Christians have never read the Bible.
Edit: the closest I've heard to a justification from Christians is that these OT laws don't apply to them anymore because Jesus brought the doctrine of grace. But then in the same breath they'll quote Leviticus to support their homophobic positions. So which one is it?
I've noticed that religious people tend to use the "out of context" excuse whenever they are confronted with a verse from their holy book that they're not comfortable with. You never hear them complain about context when people quote single feel-good sentences from the Torah/Bible/Quran.
Besides, it is quite a leap to assume there even is a context in which these verses are justifiable, let alone moral. Let's take Leviticus as an example since you mentioned it:
Why kill the animal over something it has no control over? An animal cannot give consent to sexual relations so why does it deserve the same punishment as the woman who tried to abuse it? There is no context around it, this is just the punishment for sin that is laid out in the book and I have yet to hear a moral justification for it. But this is rather mild stuff compared to some of the barbarism in the Bible (dashing babies against rocks, ripping open the bellies of pregnant women, beating slaves so hard that they die, kidnapping girls to use as sex slaves while killing their entire families, etc.). It's a good thing most Christians have never read the Bible.
Edit: the closest I've heard to a justification from Christians is that these OT laws don't apply to them anymore because Jesus brought the doctrine of grace. But then in the same breath they'll quote Leviticus to support their homophobic positions. So which one is it?
LindavG
Proud Member
Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)
Excellent post. I cringe everytime I see or hear the term "islamophobia". Any idea should be open to criticism and Islam gets no special treatment from me. As for prejudice against Muslims as people, that is anti-Muslim bigotry and it is obviously a real issue.
Excellent post. I cringe everytime I see or hear the term "islamophobia". Any idea should be open to criticism and Islam gets no special treatment from me. As for prejudice against Muslims as people, that is anti-Muslim bigotry and it is obviously a real issue.
Bad World Tour
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Ok. Ill go to the the Christian thread where it is? i can´t find only this and the other about Islam.
Altough i do not have a religion or belong to some kind of church.
But the "Light" should be where is no "Light" or am i wrong? I dont want to be banned i leave this message and go.
I will not press nobody, and respect all your opinions.
It would be great to learn from eachother
but ill respect the forum/thread rules
But think about it.
You never saw me but you beleive that i exist. Why?
heres an example hope you dont mind
Posts
12,282
Thanks
15,755
Thanked 28,010 Times in 6,957 Posts
respect77
Most of us on the Forum never saw you but we like you and in somewhay we know you through what?
your posts! or (scriptures)! That´s where you or anyone else should start or not no pression.(Just to think about it)
Reading the scriptures to know Him but you need the ruach hakodesh(holy spirit) do understand not just by yourself
yes there are some "crazy stuff in that book" i agree but its all in the old testament(Islam is more towards that book altought i dont hate islam people) or old "contract" the new one is all about love
even your enemies not judge or condem but save.
Its written that the chaff and wheat will be all together(in the church) till the last day just beause you heard about some "fanatic religions people" or homophibic doesn mean we are all the same (i love them and pray for them).
Narrow is gate and only an few will enter that.
Why not taking a shot? is free and online(Mathew,Mark,Luke and John)Gospel
No pressure anyone
You dont BELEIVE but do you beleive in the Devil/evil? (just open your tv on the news)
Is this kind of world you want for you children ?
In the end of the day we all tired we just want to relax
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Heres an example of the a fraction of the "Light" MJ had it, well anyone can have that believers or not.
but the ONES will be stronger than others like an evidence and deep in my heart i know that YOUR HEARTS and near everybody in the World
will have this "light" some more than others in 30 or some days
HE put this in your heart
Love
I know is hard and everybody reacts different but i just want to share this with you i know this is a non beleiver thread so ill met you on other threads because is not hard to see what we all have in commom.
Sorry for the long message
and if i hit a nerve on someone
best regards
Altough i do not have a religion or belong to some kind of church.
But the "Light" should be where is no "Light" or am i wrong? I dont want to be banned i leave this message and go.
I will not press nobody, and respect all your opinions.
It would be great to learn from eachother
but ill respect the forum/thread rulesBut think about it.
You never saw me but you beleive that i exist. Why?
heres an example hope you dont mind
Posts
12,282
Thanks
15,755
Thanked 28,010 Times in 6,957 Posts
respect77
Most of us on the Forum never saw you but we like you and in somewhay we know you through what?
your posts! or (scriptures)! That´s where you or anyone else should start or not no pression.(Just to think about it)
Reading the scriptures to know Him but you need the ruach hakodesh(holy spirit) do understand not just by yourself
yes there are some "crazy stuff in that book" i agree but its all in the old testament(Islam is more towards that book altought i dont hate islam people) or old "contract" the new one is all about love
even your enemies not judge or condem but save.
Its written that the chaff and wheat will be all together(in the church) till the last day just beause you heard about some "fanatic religions people" or homophibic doesn mean we are all the same (i love them and pray for them).
Narrow is gate and only an few will enter that.
Why not taking a shot? is free and online(Mathew,Mark,Luke and John)Gospel
No pressure anyone
You dont BELEIVE but do you beleive in the Devil/evil? (just open your tv on the news)
Is this kind of world you want for you children ?
In the end of the day we all tired we just want to relax
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Heres an example of the a fraction of the "Light" MJ had it, well anyone can have that believers or not.
but the ONES will be stronger than others like an evidence and deep in my heart i know that YOUR HEARTS and near everybody in the World
will have this "light" some more than others in 30 or some days
HE put this in your heart
Love
I know is hard and everybody reacts different but i just want to share this with you i know this is a non beleiver thread so ill met you on other threads because is not hard to see what we all have in commom.
Sorry for the long message
and if i hit a nerve on someone
best regards
Michaels Lover
Guests
Bad World Tour;4117358 said:
if you scroll down towards the bottom of the first page in "community general discussion" it's not hard to find, really...it's on the first page...the thread is titled "Any Believers in Jesus Christ Here? (Non-debate thread for believers only)"
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...t-Here-(Non-debate-thread-for-believers-only)
HIStory
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Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)
@Bad World Tour
Your examples are extremely bad and fallacious. The scriptures are no evidence for God's existence. The scriptures were written by people, some of whom claimed to have communicated with God. It isn't analogous with me writing comments on a message board proving my existence. It would be analogous with if I claimed that my comments come from God himself and therefore you should follow all my instructions. Would you believe it just because I claimed that? As Bible scholars showed many of the books of the Bible were not even written by the people that Christian tradition credits these books to and they are of very doubtful credibility even historically, let alone the miracle claims in them. Much of it is basically fiction.
For your information, I know all about the fallacious Christian arguments, since I used to be a Christian. So do not even bother with these. No one is going to be impressed.
There is less violent stuff in the New Testament, but that doesn't mean there isn't hateful and crazy stuff there too. Think about the stance towards gay people, for example.
Please spare us of the preaching. This is the atheist thread and it is very disrespectful to come here to try to proselytize. Please respect our space and the forum rules!
@Bad World Tour
Your examples are extremely bad and fallacious. The scriptures are no evidence for God's existence. The scriptures were written by people, some of whom claimed to have communicated with God. It isn't analogous with me writing comments on a message board proving my existence. It would be analogous with if I claimed that my comments come from God himself and therefore you should follow all my instructions. Would you believe it just because I claimed that? As Bible scholars showed many of the books of the Bible were not even written by the people that Christian tradition credits these books to and they are of very doubtful credibility even historically, let alone the miracle claims in them. Much of it is basically fiction.
For your information, I know all about the fallacious Christian arguments, since I used to be a Christian. So do not even bother with these. No one is going to be impressed.
There is less violent stuff in the New Testament, but that doesn't mean there isn't hateful and crazy stuff there too. Think about the stance towards gay people, for example.
Please spare us of the preaching. This is the atheist thread and it is very disrespectful to come here to try to proselytize. Please respect our space and the forum rules!
Snow White luvs Peter Pan
Proud Member
Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)
Bad Tour sounds like the argument Blaise Pascal use to try to justify his belief in god even though there is no reliable proof of his existence:
"If God does not exist, one will lose nothing by believing in him, while if he does exist, one will lose everything by not believing. We are compelled to gamble."
That's not how it works. His argument doesn't give people the chance of free thought, free inquiry using your logic and reasoning to determine the only "proof" believers have are their "holy books."
If I'm rude I apologize but this is how ridiculous you sounded every time believers tell atheists we can't prove god doesn't exist.
"If were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes.But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense.
If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time." -Bertrand Russell
Bad Tour sounds like the argument Blaise Pascal use to try to justify his belief in god even though there is no reliable proof of his existence:
"If God does not exist, one will lose nothing by believing in him, while if he does exist, one will lose everything by not believing. We are compelled to gamble."
That's not how it works. His argument doesn't give people the chance of free thought, free inquiry using your logic and reasoning to determine the only "proof" believers have are their "holy books."
If I'm rude I apologize but this is how ridiculous you sounded every time believers tell atheists we can't prove god doesn't exist.
"If were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes.But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense.
If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time." -Bertrand Russell
HIStory
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Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)
Other problems with Pascal's argument:
1) Even if you believe in a god you will never know if you believe in the right god. So you are actually still in a gamble no matter which side you pick.
2) It is not true that you do not lose anything when you choose faith in god. That often means you will devout a significant amount of time and money and effort to your faith and church. For example in the form of giving money to your church, in the form of spending your Sundays in a church and so on. If there is no god you spent all that time and money in vain and you could have spent that time from your life on more useful and more fun things. Not to mention the restrictions one puts on himself if he seriously follows almost any religion. So if there is no god you did lose a lot - you wasted a significant amount of time from your life on useless things.
Other problems with Pascal's argument:
1) Even if you believe in a god you will never know if you believe in the right god. So you are actually still in a gamble no matter which side you pick.
2) It is not true that you do not lose anything when you choose faith in god. That often means you will devout a significant amount of time and money and effort to your faith and church. For example in the form of giving money to your church, in the form of spending your Sundays in a church and so on. If there is no god you spent all that time and money in vain and you could have spent that time from your life on more useful and more fun things. Not to mention the restrictions one puts on himself if he seriously follows almost any religion. So if there is no god you did lose a lot - you wasted a significant amount of time from your life on useless things.
MJresearcher
Proud Member
Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)
Pascal's wager is a false dichotomy, it only allows for two possible options
1. The Christian god exists
2. The Christian god does not exist
If a person is going to present the possibility of the existence of a supernatural being or a god/s then it's not logical for them to only include the one they believe in. People across the world have believed in hundreds, maybe even thousands of different gods so these would also have to be added to the equation. The faith systems that issue threats of suffering and torture for not following their god are the ones that last the longest because they play into the basic and primal feeling of fear. The problem with that however, is that believing something only because you fear what could happen if you don't is not a valid reason to believe something. What if we told people that there's an ancient werewolf roaming the world who will kill and eat the heart of anyone who does not give it their loyalty? Should this premise be believed because a threat is involved or because there have been stories claiming the existence of werewolves for a long period of time? Of course not.
The problem with faith systems is that none of them can be proved to be correct over another because they're not built on evidence. We know that people who post on this forum exist because in order for their posts to be written and appear in threads they need to have someone writing and posting them. This is not the same as someone making a claim about the existence of something or someone else.
Pascal's wager is a false dichotomy, it only allows for two possible options
1. The Christian god exists
2. The Christian god does not exist
If a person is going to present the possibility of the existence of a supernatural being or a god/s then it's not logical for them to only include the one they believe in. People across the world have believed in hundreds, maybe even thousands of different gods so these would also have to be added to the equation. The faith systems that issue threats of suffering and torture for not following their god are the ones that last the longest because they play into the basic and primal feeling of fear. The problem with that however, is that believing something only because you fear what could happen if you don't is not a valid reason to believe something. What if we told people that there's an ancient werewolf roaming the world who will kill and eat the heart of anyone who does not give it their loyalty? Should this premise be believed because a threat is involved or because there have been stories claiming the existence of werewolves for a long period of time? Of course not.
The problem with faith systems is that none of them can be proved to be correct over another because they're not built on evidence. We know that people who post on this forum exist because in order for their posts to be written and appear in threads they need to have someone writing and posting them. This is not the same as someone making a claim about the existence of something or someone else.
HIStory
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Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)
Let me add this: Even Paul agrees with me on this point:
Of course he continues to state that he is sure their beliefs are correct, but even Paul stated that if their beliefs are wrong then Christians are "more to be pitied than anyone in the world". (And this could be said of any religion. Islam even more so than Christianity IMO, since that is an even more strict religion with more restrictions for its followers.) That does not sound like a win-win situation to me, like Pascal suggests.
Let me add this: Even Paul agrees with me on this point:
Of course he continues to state that he is sure their beliefs are correct, but even Paul stated that if their beliefs are wrong then Christians are "more to be pitied than anyone in the world". (And this could be said of any religion. Islam even more so than Christianity IMO, since that is an even more strict religion with more restrictions for its followers.) That does not sound like a win-win situation to me, like Pascal suggests.
Michaels Lover
Guests
Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)
LindavG
Proud Member
Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)
^ That's a bit harsh. I don't wish hell on anyone, not even Hitler. The idea of infinite torture without hope for redemption is so deeply repulsive to me. It boggles my mind that Christians can believe billions of people will suffer this eternal punishment just because they weren't convinced by the claims in the Bible (or weren't even familiar with them because they grew up in a different culture) and not lose a night of sleep over it. Some even rejoice in it. But we are supposed to believe this is all moral and good because the Bible says so.
That said, the idea of heaven is not that appealing to me either. A place where everyone is stripped of their identities and groveling before God every minute of every day, where there is no sense or purpose because the outcome is always positive, where there is no room for discomfort or disagreement... I would like to live on after death in some way but if this is my only option, I think I'd rather choose death instead.
Fortunately, there is about as much evidence for heaven and hell as there is for Valhalla and Middle-Earth so I'm not particularly worried -_-
^ That's a bit harsh. I don't wish hell on anyone, not even Hitler. The idea of infinite torture without hope for redemption is so deeply repulsive to me. It boggles my mind that Christians can believe billions of people will suffer this eternal punishment just because they weren't convinced by the claims in the Bible (or weren't even familiar with them because they grew up in a different culture) and not lose a night of sleep over it. Some even rejoice in it. But we are supposed to believe this is all moral and good because the Bible says so.
That said, the idea of heaven is not that appealing to me either. A place where everyone is stripped of their identities and groveling before God every minute of every day, where there is no sense or purpose because the outcome is always positive, where there is no room for discomfort or disagreement... I would like to live on after death in some way but if this is my only option, I think I'd rather choose death instead.
Fortunately, there is about as much evidence for heaven and hell as there is for Valhalla and Middle-Earth so I'm not particularly worried -_-
Snow White luvs Peter Pan
Proud Member
Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)
Although there are more severe and crueler ways to abuse a child, it's a form of child abuse. The adult is taking advantage he's/she's the one who has the power of authority over a minor to control and mold their thoughts for the adult's convenience. According to their "logic" unbaptized babies can go suffer an eternal torture in the flames of hell but if murderers,rapists, etc accept Jesus Christ as their savior, they can go to heaven.
Although there are more severe and crueler ways to abuse a child, it's a form of child abuse. The adult is taking advantage he's/she's the one who has the power of authority over a minor to control and mold their thoughts for the adult's convenience. According to their "logic" unbaptized babies can go suffer an eternal torture in the flames of hell but if murderers,rapists, etc accept Jesus Christ as their savior, they can go to heaven.
LindavG
Proud Member
Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)
Although I'm an atheist, I do have a soft spot for beautiful African choir music, like this:
[youtube]yNqmpQPp-ns[/youtube]
That is one way in which religion can bring people together
Although I'm an atheist, I do have a soft spot for beautiful African choir music, like this:
[youtube]yNqmpQPp-ns[/youtube]
That is one way in which religion can bring people together
Michaels Lover
Guests
Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)
Snow White luvs Peter Pan, I hope you don't mind me asking, but i was just wondering what it's like to be an atheist in Mexico? I'm asking because I know it's not easy in all countries, and I'm always curious to find out what it's like in different countries. is it something you have to hide, or you can be open about it? How is atheism generally looked at in your country? I hope it's ok that I ask you Snow White luvs Peter Pan :blush: if you don't want to answer or talk about it, I understand
Snow White luvs Peter Pan, I hope you don't mind me asking, but i was just wondering what it's like to be an atheist in Mexico? I'm asking because I know it's not easy in all countries, and I'm always curious to find out what it's like in different countries. is it something you have to hide, or you can be open about it? How is atheism generally looked at in your country? I hope it's ok that I ask you Snow White luvs Peter Pan :blush: if you don't want to answer or talk about it, I understand
Snow White luvs Peter Pan
Proud Member
Re: Athesit Thread (For non-believers only)
Well, I don't hide it, my family knows it, probably some of my relatives too because I received from some of them criticism and complains in my first FB account for posting atheist/science related, mockery and criticizing RELIGION and clergy, never believers; that's why I opted not adding family members or relatives in the second one 3 years ago in the second account. My family doesn't respect me and I've had fights with my mother specially for it. The most recent one, she practically told me I act like I am superior and better than believers for being atheist which pissed me odd because I really think I've never acted as such in these 12 years. Thanks to Richard Dawkins book, The God Delusion made me feel there shouldn't be anything wrong to be atheist and express it. Beliefs or non beliefs don't make you a good person, having true morals which don't come from "holy books" and your actions do.
This would have been very useful 3 years ago! :lol:
TBH, I might receive judgement and discrimination from people around me because Mexico is still predominantly a Catholic country, us atheists are just 1% of the population the last time I checked the statistics but those are mild problems compared to the people living in Muslim countries where some or many who are apostates are punished being arrested, tortured or even death. So I don't blame them whatsoever if they pretend to be Muslims to survive. Although Mexico is still Catholic, I don't see that extreme level of fanatism and obsession towards religion I've noticed in the Protestant parts of USA or Muslims themselves who are even more dangerous than Christians nowadays.
I've chatted briefly with Iranians, a Moroccan and a Venezuelan women , the Venezuelan woman I chatted was the one who I felt hurt me the most because she was considering suicide, she felt so miserable living with his Muslim husband in Egypt, forcing her to be submissive, obedient and wearing a niqab instead of a hijab as she did in the beginning of her comvertion to Islam, also having many doubts and inquiries about that faith. I tried to encourage telling there was nothing wrong if she had questions and doubts to search for the truth, to think for herself and to be critical as long she didn't express it to people around her, if she had to pretend to be Muslim, admired her bravery either way but she didn't reply me back anymore. I'd feel guilty if I didn't help her, this was my first and longest conversation I had with Muslim (closeted atheist) 5 years ago.
I guess it's a little easier in European countries where atheism is rising. I think your country is one of them. You tell me if my perception is wrong, Michael's Lover. How ironic, European nations were the conquerors imposing Catholicism and Protestantism to our ancestors in the four continents through slaughter and slavery and nowadays it's the continent with the majority of atheist population. Sorry I wrote too much, oops! :blush:
Well, I don't hide it, my family knows it, probably some of my relatives too because I received from some of them criticism and complains in my first FB account for posting atheist/science related, mockery and criticizing RELIGION and clergy, never believers; that's why I opted not adding family members or relatives in the second one 3 years ago in the second account. My family doesn't respect me and I've had fights with my mother specially for it. The most recent one, she practically told me I act like I am superior and better than believers for being atheist which pissed me odd because I really think I've never acted as such in these 12 years. Thanks to Richard Dawkins book, The God Delusion made me feel there shouldn't be anything wrong to be atheist and express it. Beliefs or non beliefs don't make you a good person, having true morals which don't come from "holy books" and your actions do.
This would have been very useful 3 years ago! :lol:
TBH, I might receive judgement and discrimination from people around me because Mexico is still predominantly a Catholic country, us atheists are just 1% of the population the last time I checked the statistics but those are mild problems compared to the people living in Muslim countries where some or many who are apostates are punished being arrested, tortured or even death. So I don't blame them whatsoever if they pretend to be Muslims to survive. Although Mexico is still Catholic, I don't see that extreme level of fanatism and obsession towards religion I've noticed in the Protestant parts of USA or Muslims themselves who are even more dangerous than Christians nowadays.
I've chatted briefly with Iranians, a Moroccan and a Venezuelan women , the Venezuelan woman I chatted was the one who I felt hurt me the most because she was considering suicide, she felt so miserable living with his Muslim husband in Egypt, forcing her to be submissive, obedient and wearing a niqab instead of a hijab as she did in the beginning of her comvertion to Islam, also having many doubts and inquiries about that faith. I tried to encourage telling there was nothing wrong if she had questions and doubts to search for the truth, to think for herself and to be critical as long she didn't express it to people around her, if she had to pretend to be Muslim, admired her bravery either way but she didn't reply me back anymore. I'd feel guilty if I didn't help her, this was my first and longest conversation I had with Muslim (closeted atheist) 5 years ago.
I guess it's a little easier in European countries where atheism is rising. I think your country is one of them. You tell me if my perception is wrong, Michael's Lover. How ironic, European nations were the conquerors imposing Catholicism and Protestantism to our ancestors in the four continents through slaughter and slavery and nowadays it's the continent with the majority of atheist population. Sorry I wrote too much, oops! :blush: