Ok, this is getting "deep." But who is going to decide what purpose each creature has in relation to another? What is prey to one creature is predator to another--a bird 'preys' on an insect, but can be itself a 'prey" to another species (a bigger bird, etc). It's all one big interconnected ecosystem IMO and way beyond our full comprehension. BUT the big problem is one species--humans--have disrupted the balance and that cannot be restored by them once it is broken. In medicine there is the famous first step--DO NO HARM--and I wish humans would take that as a motto in their dealings with the wild creatures and wild nature. This is also nonviolence (Ahimsa). But too many people think nothing of treating other species as just there for whatever--shark fin soup, research, bear bile, fur, etc etc--and it's gotten out of hand. These are feeling, sentient beings that often have a greater intelligence and greater sensitivity than we do. Chimps are an example of a very smart species.
Well--I should not say any more b/c I feel very strongly about this. I am really worried about where we are headed environmentally speaking, esp. in regards to BIG ecosystems like the oceans (now crowded with jellyfish instead of fish) and the atmosphere (warming).
I am with you on this ^^. Great post!!
About this part:
"But who is going to decide what purpose each creature has in relation to another? What is prey to one creature is predator to another--a bird 'preys' on an insect, but can be itself a 'prey" to another species (a bigger bird, etc). It's all one big interconnected ecosystem IMO and way beyond our full comprehension."
^^That's it right there.
No One should decide the purposes of each creature in relation to another and define who is predator or prey. [I think that humans' decisions about these things have caused all these problem, which are connected to trade/colonilization/indrustralization/money/greed/the West's ideologies on modernization, etc., and as you say it has gotten worse.] Each organism knows what it is. I mean a lion knows what he has to do and what he is all about. He does not need a human to tell it. It is humans who came in and started a lot of problems by subjugating not only animals but also people. However, essentially as you put it before with the intrinsic value, all creations have within themselves the ability of knowing. Knowing what to do, knowing who they are, knowing where to get food, etc.
I would just like to add a little more about this defining problem: To me a plant knows he is a medicine/food/cover for the forest/home for little creatures, etc. So, if a dog goes and eat grass which is medicine, the dog did not define that grass as medicine. The plant as part of his value was already created as a medicine and more. Now if humans decide something is useful, like an animal, they are not supposed to go and exploit it, make it unhappy, and suffer. I think it all boils down to humans' behavior and attitude.
Yes, we are similar with that one big interconnected ecosystem. Yes I agree that a prey can also be a predator and I spoke about how within an organism there are different worths when we were talking about your intrinsic worth.
Actually, Jamba I don't think we have a diverse of opinion on this topic, we just pushed the topic in a different way.
Yes I am with you on the problems humans caused, but think about this. In spite of humans destructive actions, humans can't change the organisms intrinsic value. In other words, they may go out and hunt the deer you love, but they can't change the value the deer has where when you see them you feel joy, calmness, happiness. They can take the deer's life, but can't take away its intrinsic value. They can't change the intrinsic value the deer has of knowing which plants to eat. They can exploit the Amazon and cut down the trees, but they can't change the intrinsic value of the plants to be food, or even to be medicinal. Yet, in spite of all the problems humans caused animals still need/help plants, humans still need/help animals and plants, plants still need/help humans, etc.
I get your hurt about the plight of non-human species. Even the scientists you mention above, to me, are part of the problem even though they have done much to help. Above you mention scientists have shown that some of the animals have a greater sensitivity and intelligence than us. I think what they should be stressing is not how close or unlike us an organism is. Once they begin to do that they are falling into that trap where you treat something/someone Well because they are
like us or almost like us. I understand why they like to do those studies and show the similarities between the chimps/apes/monkeys and humans and the intelligence of the dolphins, etc. However, they should focus less on these types of analyses and more on showing the importance of life/existence of organisms & the contributions of these organisms to our large interconnected ecosystem that you mentioned. We all know how important that little ant is, and it is the ant's value that should be stressed and not how similar it is to humans or how smart it is. What has happened partly due to these researches is that organisms that people find are not close to humans or not as intelligent as humans, they tend to ill-treat and exploit more.
