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History could have been better

respect77 said:
Please realize, that your opinion is just that: one opinion. That does not mean everyone has to agree.
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you will need Time to realise I'm right... But you will reach that point too. I just brought facts.

You just have to listen now...
 
respect77 said:
Little Susie samples Sunrise Sunset from Fiddler on the Roof.

This song that you linked in does not resemble to Little Susie to me at all, let alone being a "rip off".
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some violins come from Sunrise Sunset yes and the Chorus too but whole Melody is from this Russian Theme.

Listen again..
 
loka said:
you will need Time to realise I'm right... But you will reach that point too. I just brought facts.

You just have to listen now...
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What "facts"? Music taste is not about scientifically provable facts that you can be right about. You prefer Nathalie Cole's version. We get it already. But it does not make you right about anything. It's just your taste. To say about music taste "I am right and you are wrong" is just very immature and childish.
 
DS is very inspired too by Higher Ground of Stevie Wonder and Party Train by Gap Band.

The guitar riff and the violins at the end are almost the same.

once again, just open the ears without preconceptions...

The violins especially are the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFLyjyqdJVQ

By the way i really like DS...
 
respect77 said:
I listened to it and I do not hear it. Plus I looked up the song and it says it was released in 1997.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Once_Upon_a_December
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It's a very very old Russian Theme... It was just used in the Movie Anastasia in 97 but it's very old.

Just like "Will You be There" is a very old Indian Theme.

That's why it was also in the song "Cigni di Balaca" of the Italien Singer Celantano (not sure of his name).
 
Show me the original Russian theme.

And generally speaking just because two songs share some small similarities it does not mean it's a "rip off". There are only 8 notes and sometimes songwriters end up with similar things even without ever hearing about the other.
 
back to my point :

some tracks are listenable but they bring nothing.

I think "Is it scary", "Ghosts" and "Morphine" are really outstanding and they should have made the finaal cut in History.

Almost nobody outside the Fans know them and it's a shame...
 
loka said:
Please, forget one second that you're a fan and listen to Nathalie Cole Version...

You will understand my Point.
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I'm not saying Nathalie's version is bad, quite the contrary, it's beautiful but I still prefer Michael's. Knowing and understanding Michael's adoration towards Sir Charles because I'm a huge fan of his as well, it's preposterous and even cruel of you saying he brought nothing with his version knowing how much he loved Charlie.
 
respect77 said:
Show me the original Russian theme..
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Ok, if you find me the original Theme from "will you be there" which is also and old Indian Music.

The guy who said this is Michael Jackson in his defense against Celantano for a copyright Infragment's case.
 
loka said:
back to my point :

some tracks are listenable but they bring nothing.
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Again that's just your opinion that they bring nothing. To you they don't. To others they do bring a lot. For example, I like the bittersweet sadness in Michael's rendition of Smile. I like the expressiveness of his vocals, the poignancy of it. The juxtaposition with Scream - as TonyR pointed out in his review, the album starts with a Scream and ends with a Smile. I think it all makes sense artistically and IMO it's genius. The song also makes a lot of sense in the life experience MJ was in at the time (and basically all the time after 1993). Again, you do not have to share these feelings about the song, but you have to learn that music taste and artistic sensibilities are not about being right or wrong. Different pieces of art mean different things to different people. Some people think the Mona Lisa is the greatest painting ever, others don't get it at all and think it's overrated and overhyped. Art is like that. Subjective.

To me personally if I had to leave off songs from HIStory, I'd leave off Come Together, This Time Around and DS. And yes, Morphine and Is It Scary should replace them. I'm not sure about Ghosts as it's lyrically too similar to Is It Scary.
 
Snow White luvs Peter Pan said:
If you dislike the HIStory album so much, I don't understand why you're even posting here tbh.
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I thought everuthing was said in the Title Of my Post : "History could have been better"...

I didn't know that i was in Church where History can't be criticised, sorry.
 
loka said:
Ok, if you find me the original Theme from "will you be there" which is also and old Indian Music.

The guy who said this is Michael Jackson in his defense against Celantano for a copyright Infragment's case.
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WTH does Will You Be There have to do with anything here? I'm well aware that MJ was sued for copyright infringement - by Al Bano and not by Celentano, by the way. And the Court ruled in favour of MJ and rejected the claim because both songs are similar to an 1939 Ink Spots song called Bless You for Being an Angel. So if MJ "ripped off" something then so did Al Bano, so he should not throw around stones while sitting in a glass house. Basically that's what the Court said with its ruling. But like I said, sometimes musicians just accidentally come up with similar themes, without the intention of ripping off anyone. I'm not sure why I'm supposed to look for that old Indian theme for you. I was not the one making a claim about MJ's ripping off someone. You said Little Susie is ripped off from an old Russian song. I just asked for that old Russian song. Since you made a claim you are the one who has to provide evidence.
 
I never said you can't express your OPINION (which aren't facts, BTW) but you don't give reasons why to you the songs bring nothing, you're just here bashing.
 
loka said:
DS is very inspired too by Higher Ground of Stevie Wonder and Party Train by Gap Band.

The guitar riff and the violins at the end are almost the same.

once again, just open the ears without preconceptions...

The violins especially are the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFLyjyqdJVQ

By the way i really like DS...
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That guitar riff is so common in songs with a bluesy feel. If you follow that logic, I can also say Higher Ground 'brought nothing new' since this song already existed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRKNw477onU
(and this is just one random example that came to mind)

You can find so many commonalities in music. Artists are going to be influenced by each other no matter what. And heck, some things just sound good. Songs do not have to be revolutionary to be great, right?
 
respect77 said:
WTH does Will You Be There have to do with anything here? I'm well aware that MJ was sued for copyright infringement - by Al Bano and not by Celentano, by the way. And the Court ruled in favour of MJ and rejected the claim because both songs are similar to an 1939 Ink Spots song called Bless You for Being an Angel. So if MJ "ripped off" something then so did Al Bano, so he should not throw around stones while sitting in a glass house. Basically that's what the Court said with its ruling. But like I said, sometimes musicians just accidentally come up with similar themes, without the intention of ripping off anyone. I'm not sure why I'm supposed to look for that old Indian theme for you. I was not the one making a claim about MJ's ripping off someone. You said Little Susie is ripped off from an old Russian song. I just asked for that old Russian song. Since you made a claim you are the one who has to provide evidence.
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Thank you for the link.

But it's a very old Indian Anthem and MJ said it himself.

That's why MJ showed this in the Dangerous Tour show with Indians on Stage.

It's the same with Anastasia's theme. A very old Russian anthem...

Both MJ and The composers of Anastasia Score know this old theme.

It's a Waltz very hard to find now on Internet just like the Indian Track for "will you be there".
 
respect77 said:
Little Susie samples Sunrise Sunset from Fiddler on the Roof.

This song that you linked in does not resemble to Little Susie to me at all, let alone being a "rip off".
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Proof that we are saying the same thing :

Fiddler on the Roof is a musical with music by Jerry Bock, lyrics by Sheldon Harnick, and book by Joseph Stein, set in the Pale of Imperial Russia in 1905.

You see the Russian connection that i'm talking about ?
 
loka said:
Proof that we are saying the same thing :

Fiddler on the Roof is a musical with music by Jerry Bock, lyrics by Sheldon Harnick, and book by Joseph Stein, set in the Pale of Imperial Russia in 1905.

You see the Russian connection that i'm talking about ?
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No. The song you linked in is different and it was even released after Little Susie and you failed to provide the orginal Russian song. Have you even heard it? And just because the story of Fiddler on the Roof plays in Russia it does not prove what you claim.

BTW, funny that you accuse MJ of "ripping off" a song then you provide a song as "proof" that was 1) released after Little Susie (and let's not forget Little Susie was actually written in the late 70s by Michael), 2) if it was inspired by an old Russian song it's not credited there either as according to Wikipedia the composers of Once Upon a December are David Newman and Stephen Flaherty. So should not you accuse them of "ripping off" a song as well? Or is that word only for Michael and while he "rips off" things others are just inspired?
 
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It isn't the music itself but what the artist does with it. Micheal was producing work that was no different to a million other artists. Micheal just took it to another level with his ability as a producer and as a singer.
All classical music is essentially the same from the standpoint of the notes and the instruments utilized to create it but the greats found a way to infuse it with something magical. Micheal had that same gift.
 
loka;4040162 said:
Please, bring some arguments...

Did you know the previous versions of Smile and please answer :

What did MJ bring to the track, except his name ?

I hope you really give a try to Nathalie Cole version which stills the reference...
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The Importance of Smile

Michael Jackson's Smile has always been one of my favourite records. Like many of my favourite MJ songs, I can remember hearing it for the first time, on the day HIStory was released when I ran to my room to play the album in its entirety.

To put Smile into perspective, you need to put the HIStory album into perspective. After the 1993 allegations, nothing about Michael Jackson would ever be the same, and that includes his music. Dangerous had already seen Michael move into darker territory; from light, pop melodies to a more sinister, anguished, socially conscious terrain.

With HIStory Michael went into full victim mentality, I've said before that if you want to know exactly how he felt following the occurrences of 1993, just listen to this album, it's the most auto-biographical he's ever been. In essence, it's a concept album with at least 8 of the tracks dealing directly with the allegations.

As such, it's a brilliant but very angry album. It's filled with hurt, hate, anguish, defiance and distress. Press play and after the initial distortion the first sound you hear is Michael Jackson screaming, setting the scene for songs like Scream, They Don't Care About Us, the beautiful but haunting Stranger in Moscow, D.S. This Time Around, 2 Bad – all songs answering his critics but all following the same themes. Only You Are Not Alone provides the listener with a respite from the album's theme, even songs not dealing directly with 1993 still show Michael's anger & feelings about the state of the world; Earth Song, Childhood & Little Susie.

Then we come to Smile, notable in itself being a cover version which up until Come Together had been absent on an adult Michael Jackson album, but also a song that the vast majority of listeners will not have heard.

After 70 minutes of Michael revealing himself to be tormented, lonely, fragile and hurt, he tells us that actually, life ain't so bad. The theme of anger is replaced by beauty. Beauty in the instrumentation, production and that sweet, sweet voice.

Lyrically, it's painfully obvious why Michael finally chose to record Smile for HIStory. He's telling us, and reminding himself, that despite all that's happened to him, he's the eternal optimist.
 
An album should have a concept.
For example, on Invincible MJ wanted to sound erotic, Dangerous revolved around social issues, HIStory was planned to present an aggressive look of MJ. By putting songs such as Morphine, Ghosts, Is It Scary and Blood On The Dance Floor it could have distracted the album from its main mission and direction (in other words, there was a danger of losing the album its main concept). The majority of the songs on any album (in this case HIStory) should serve the album’s mission (with the rest of the songs to be as neutral (lyrically) as it can be, for example Smile, You Are Not Alone).
Also, these songs (Morphine, Ghosts, Is It Scary & Blood On The Dance Floor) they were already finished (in terms of recording) by 1995 but there is a very long distance between recording a song and releasing it. In fact, after recording is done there is a whole new crucial procedure that waits (mixing, mastering, digital editing …) which requires the appropriate staff members and studios.
 
Michael Jackson King of Pop didn't bring anything new to the table? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!! Funniest thing I've read fo quite a while! When I first listened to the masterpiece that is HIStory my ears almost fell off. The production on this album is PERFECTION and the whole album GENIUS as is its creator. Proof??? Turn the volume up and LISTEN TO IT! The examples that were given by a poster here are not convincing at all. Michael did cite references in the credits of his album, so he didn't hide anything. But even if he did use a few samples he made something completely new. There is no rip-off. Period.
 
By the way, I have no problem with anyone questioning or not liking any of MJ's work, in fact I prefer that to the sycophants! I have done it with Invincible myself. It's just that with Smile & Little Susie I just can't see the problem.

Smile is the track I put on first after MJ's passing. Although there are lots of other MJ tracks I prefer, emotionally this hits the spot like no other. It is sublime.
 
Smile isn't one of my favorite songs, but it fits the theme of the HIStory album perfectly and it's a great song to end the album with
 
I don't think Michael's version of Smile was ever intended to be musically innovative (although you could probably make a pretty strong argument that the fact that it even appears on an album that includes songs such as Scream or 2 Bad is pretty innovative within itself). As others have suggested, what Michael brings to the table here is the inner essence of his vocal performance - that incredible gift he had for human connection. For me, that's one of the most important things about Michael Jackson, what completely sets him apart from other artists. Like what Sheryl Crow said on Bad 25 -- it's not necessarily just about technique, some sort of musical 'fact' that makes one artist's performance technically better than another's. It's also about feeling - how the music or the vocals connect to you emotionally, inside -- its not really something you can describe...

I do think that a lot of stuff from BOTDF is stronger than several of the tracks that ended up on HIStory, but I don't think I would remove Smile or Little Susie. Those songs are what take that album to another level, and they completely showcase Michael's uncanny ability to take songs from such disparate genres and fuse them together into a totally coherent concept. To me, Smile and Little Susie make perfect sense on HIStory thematically.


Also, I really don't see the problem with Michael perhaps drawing on Russian influences to create Little Susie..?? Unless its a note for note rip off, but I haven't seen any evidence of that. All artists draw influence from somewhere, and it is almost impossible to create something completely new - in fact, Michael was most likely deliberately drawing from several different sources (perhaps including traditional Russian music), so that he could create his own unique work. That doesn't really diminish the value of the song to me? Pretty much everything Michael did took influence or inspiration from something else, and that's usually what makes his music more interesting to me.

For example, as a design student, when I start a project, I'm required to do a huge amount of research on that particular subject in order to make an informed decision about what my design should be. You take a bunch of influences from different places, put them all together and build on them to make your own unique, and hopefully innovative final solution. At the end of the day though, whatever you come up with is going to bear some similarity to whatever your original influences were -- that's kind of the point! To me, being able to build upon what others have done before is often what enriches your work. Doesn't mean you're plagiarising.


Also, I'm very sorry for my long-winded rambling. It just tends to come out.. :blush:
 
mj_frenzy said:
An album should have a concept.
By putting songs such as Morphine, Ghosts, Is It Scary and Blood On The Dance Floor it could have distracted the album from its main mission and direction (in other words, there was a danger of losing the album its main concept).
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BOTDF yes. I like that song but it would not have fitted to HIStory well. But Morphine and Is It Scary IMO would have. Ghosts too, but as I said my problem with that is that lyrically it has very similar, even the same parts as Is It Scary, so if I have to choose from the two songs I'd put Is It Scary on the album. My Alternative HIStory (a mix of HIStory and the BOTDF album) would look like this:

1. Scream
2. They Don't Care About Us
3. Stranger in Moscow
4. Morphine
5. Earth Song
6. Money
7. You Are Not Alone
8. Childhood
9. Tabloid Junkie
10. Is It Scary
11. 2 Bad
12. HIStory
13. Little Susie
14. Smile

I'd actually like to add Threatened as well. It would fit well thematically too.
 
respect77 said:
1. Scream
2. They Don't Care About Us
3. Stranger in Moscow
4. Morphine
5. Earth Song
6. Money
7. You Are Not Alone
8. Childhood
9. Tabloid Junkie
10. Is It Scary
11. 2 Bad
12. HIStory
13. Little Susie
14. Smile
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That sounds about right to me!

respect77 said:
I'd actually like to add Threatened as well. It would fit well thematically too.
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Yeah, definitely. I can't listen to Is It Scary without wanting to hear Threatened afterwards.
 
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