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Murray Trial - Day 14 - October 20 - Discussion

xthunderx2 said:
they are very smart,,they are gonna challenge anything that the defense thinks it can say,,,this pros team is amazing,
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Yes Thunder and what I like it that they are challenging the defense expert before he gets on the stand. That is the most cleaver thing I have seen in years. We were all saying before why didn't the pros do this or that but now we see that there was a plan to wait for this expert to bring out all the information.

I wonder how the media who claimed Michael drank and took the drugs himself feel. Jerks!
 
Chilean study concluded no effects of ORAL ingestion of Profopol
the publicity of the possibilituy of MJ drinking propofol is tainting
the effectivenes of the drug. Any abuse of the drug can only be
done by the intavenous route
 
shaffer now gonna discuss the same isssue but with lorazapam. so this should be intresting re the whole stomach talk

sidebar again. no doubt chernoff is filling his pants!

white looks incompentant before hes even taken the stand with his opinion on oral ingestion.no wonder the defence pulled that theory. but very clever of walgren to still bring it up to show what white is like and to add more credibility to shaffer

intresting that the chile study was actually done by shaffer. the way it was reported was that it was just some random dr with not much credibility who did it. but knowing it was shaffer makes a huge difference
 
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Why hasn't Ms. Brazil done any examinations lately? I love Walgren, he's excellent but so is she & I like her voice its calming heh.
 
Some guy on In Session is suggesting that Michael could have taken some other drugs. They never give up.
 
The media reports defence are changing tact. Lorezpan is now the focus. The delay of yesterday starting time of the trial dillying and dwelling on the amount of lorazapan found in MJ's stomach.
Defence CHEATED on the amount.. INFLATED to 8 pills.
Interesting to find out the actual tests results.
Team Murray sweating bullets. LOL! Prosecution could EAT them for lunch!
 
Petrarose said:
Some guy on In Session is suggesting that Michael could have taken some other drugs. They never give up.
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Actually, what he said was that the defense could argue that it was the mixture of drugs with the oral ingesting of propofol that could had pushed him over the edge. The studies only talked about propofol by itself without any other mixture.
 
Muarry is either smirking or giving dirty looks, so that is not new.

Guys after the trial I think we should send Shafer, Walgren and the other expert an offical thank you letter. I know it is their job, but they need to be praised.
 
Ramona122003 said:
Actually, what he said was that the defense could argue that it was the mixture of drugs with the oral ingesting of propofol that could had pushed him over the edge. The studies only talked about propofol by itself without any other mixture.
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Yeah my point is that he still pushes that Micael took combination of drugs. Michael did not take anything. He was doctored by Muarry.
 
Petrarose said:
Yeah my point is that he still pushes that Micael took combination of drugs. Michael did not take anything. He was doctored by Muarry.
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In fairness to him, he was specially talking about defense theories or what the defense could argue. He didn't say he personally believe it.
 
That is why I try to move away from the TV before the commentators begin to talk. I simply want the facts from the trial, but sometimes I am not so lucky. This is going to be another strong day for the pros. I wonder what White is writing so earnestly on his laptop. Maybe he is looking for studies to support his defense.
 
sidebard finished. 22 page doument on loraz taken orally created by shaffer. and now going to be shown. he did a study on midaz and loraz given by IV that study was mentioned yesteray. study looked at loraz and midaz give in in the ICU by a computer so it gave the right amount.the records are very precise they increased and reduced the amounts as needed. done by the comp. it was a blind study. the comp picked the amounts given. they collected blood at intervals.got a huge amount of data from this study as they closely monitored paitents. he relied on this study to predict the concentrations of Loraz. the study was done at stamford uni.

he reviewed the toxis .169 in the fem blood in mj. murray says he gave 4 mg over the night in 2 doses. would those two doses match upto .169? did he look at that? yes he did. shaffer showing a graph. the graph has the times and the concentrations and how much concentration was there at a certain time

at 2am he gives 2mgs of loraz. blood concentration is about .05 at that point after being given 2mg at 2am. matabolism and the drug being distrubted to the liver etc the concentration drops quickly within an hour drops by a third. 5 am another 2mg. u get to .05. .03 is the level at 6am by noon the level is at 10% of what was measured.

so because of the above mj was given more than 4mg of loraz as the amounts at autopsy dont match with the femoral blood levels (we already know this ad pointed out by flanagan. but obviously in shaffers opinion from his previous testimony he believes murray gave the xtra dose not mj.)

mid morning break
 
Actually, what he said was that the defense could argue that it was the mixture of drugs with the oral ingesting of propofol that could had pushed him over the edge. The studies only talked about propofol by itself without any other mixture.
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oral ingestion does nothing. that levels are tiny and would make no difference regardless of the loraz etc. its like 03-05 where the haters will look for any excuse. these ppl no doubt blame john lennon for getting shot as he shouldnt have been outside!
 
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Dr Shafer

Walgren

Dr Shafer has reviewed Paul White's report dated march 8 2011, Paul White stated MJ could have swallowed popofol. Dr Safer was disapppinted because it's not possible. Propofol is so quickly metabolised that it would be absorbed by the liver. It's called the 1st pass effect = what the liver does. You would expect nearly all of the propofol to be removed by the first pass effect. 1st pass effect is taught to first year medical students.

Powerpoint presentation : propofol not orally bioavailable :

if you inject something, it goes directly into the bloodstream . if you eat something it may or may not get into the bloodstream, the part that goes into bloodstream is called bioavailable.

Showing picture of a digestive track : so the propofol would first be in the mouth, then eosophagus, stomach , propofol passes through membranes (through the stomach in very low levels), into the bloodstream, this bloodstream would go through the liver, then to the vena cava, then to the «*main*» bloodstream. All the blood first flows through the liver.

Showing another picture of a digestive track : all of the veins leaving the stomach and the intestine go to the portal vein and then go to the liver, where propofol is subject to metabolism; that's the first pas effect.

99 % of the propofol would be removed . The gut is very active against propfol, so both the gut and the liver would eliminate 99% of propofol.

First pass effect was confirmed with studies on animals.
Showing an article dated 1985 «*interaction and other investagations of the pharmacology of propofol «*written by Dr Glenn. Dr Glenn is a scientist, he's the one who saw the possibilitis of propofol , and pushed for the develepment of propofol. Dr Glenn can be cosidered the rel father of propofol. The study was done on mice : IV doses were effective, but a 20 times higher dose, ie a massive dose, given orally did not cause them to get into general anesthesia, they were just sleepy. The study established that it was due to 1st pass effect.

«*a caparative study of intravenous and rectal administration of propofol*» dated 1991 on pigs : shows the bioavailability is less than 1 % . The colon also drains to the liver, so the results are the same, because both ways lead to the liver. This study confirms the pevious one.

«*In vivo assesmement of intestinal hepatic and pulmoary first pass metabolism*» 1996 on rats : they found 10% propofol went into the bloodstream after the first pass effect. It's bigger cause it's a different species; this study confirms that at least 90% of the propofol is metabolised by the liver.

US patent 23/09/2009 : Dr Shafer found it with Google. Described a study in rats, bioavailability was less than 1% . the overall pattern of propofol is confirmed again.

US patent 17/11/2009 : oral bioavailability in dogs and monkeys : less than 1 %

So at the time of Dr White's report in 2011, these studies were available in Google or by doing a research.

Dr Shafer did a human study after Dr Whites report; there may have been other human studies, but they have not been published, probably because the answer was considered obvious.
Dr Shafer conducted a study in Chile, with Dr Sepulveda, on human volunteers who drank propofol.
6 subjects : 3 drank 20ml of propofol (200mg), 3 drank 40ml, (400mg) of propofol. Pulse oximetry was measured, BP was measured, sedation was measured, and at regular intervals blood was taken fom a vein in the arms ad measured for propofol.
There was no sedation at any time on none of the volunteers; their levels of oxygen never dropped, their BP never dropped.
This study was presented at the meeting in Chicago last Friday. Dr Shafer received a lifetime achievement award for his work in pharmacology at that same meeting.

The other reason for this study is the publicity about MJ drinking propofol : DEA wanted to restrict access to propofol like morphine, Dr Shafer thought it wasn't a good idea because anesthesiologists need a quick access to it. So Dr Shafer wanted to show that propofol could not be abused orally, by the general public.

Confirms that there is zero possibility that oral ingestion of propofol could have caused MJ's death.

Oral lorazepam and lorazepam in general : pharamcokinetics

Study «*double blind randomized... about lorazepam and midazolam in ICU (mentioned yesterday) that looked at lorazepam and midazolam given in ICU with a computer. Double blind : the person didn't know which of the drugs was given, only the computer knew. Blood was gathered at regular interval from the patients artery to study the concentration. The study was done at Stanford, and they colected a huge amount of data.

Femoral blood : .169 . CM said he gave 2X2 mg at 2 and 5 am.

Shows a model that shows the concentration obtained by 2 doses of 2mg given at 2 and 5 am, compared to the concentration found in the femoral blood. Shows that the concentration rises quickly, and falls very quicly because of redestribution (the drugs goes to other organs);
the model shows that the concentration of 2X2 mg at 2 am and 5 am is about 10% of what was found. So the 2X2mg is not consitent with what was found in femoral blood, there was more than 4mg lorazepam given to MJ.

Break
 
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i don wonder if there is any studies supporting OD by taking it orally? where did white get his opinion from?
 
Kingofpop4ever3000 said:
Didn't the defense abandon the idea that Michael drank the propofol?
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They did, but Dr. White was the one who wrote in his study to the defense that Michael could had died by drinking it to begin with. So, they're directly challenging Dr. White by saying as a doctor he should had known better not even consider such a theory.
 
thank you all elusvie, bouee and others for all the updates, just got home finished reading through your updates. thanks a million times for them
 
your welcome. im just getting my dinner so if others can carry on with the updates for 10 mins or so id appreciate it.
 
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