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Wembley DVD Critique /Quality and other prefered concerts over Wembley go here

You guys just saw BJ. I watched the Amateur concert of July 23rd in Wembley and MANY shots were extremley identical and pretty much the same to the DVD. It seems that the DVD was edited. My assumptions of why;
The part of the VHS was too distorted or there was a problem with the tape, maybe it was skipped over that due to VHS issues,
They liked the other shots of July 23rd,
Or for all we know maybe Michael's tape was edited from other Wembley shows? Who knows.
I really don't mind other shots from other concerts, I actually like them. I love and some what miss all the crowd shots in this concert, but Bucharest had way too much.
The thing I am very upset about is that the estate said this would be 100% July 16th and un edited. This concert seems to be edited and I really don't like when people lie. The fact that the estate lied is very disapointing.
 
This release obviously isn't just pure July 16. It has other Wembley parts in it. But I don't think they edited them in because quality is the same, it definately looks taken from the same source (you would notice if it was different source). Most likely the VHS tape they used was already mixed and compiled like that for some reason. Since that was all the Estate supposedly could come up to, it is fine by me. About the July 16 date which is taken from jumbotrons just like Princess saw it thang (plus saying it was Michael's personal VHS which I tend not to believe), imo it's just a marketing strategy. Better sales that way.
Bucharest was also titled Live in Bucharest but it has footages from Wembley and Munich. Not sure if Michael was in charge of that and mixed that in by himself or anyone else, but this is common that things aren't quite 100% straight when we're talking about releases. Bucharest even has HWT SC lean picture on the DVD's back which I always was wtf about.
 
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code753cr said:
Or for all we know maybe Michael's tape was edited from other Wembley shows? Who knows.

The thing I am very upset about is that the estate said this would be 100% July 16th and un edited. This concert seems to be edited and I really don't like when people lie. The fact that the estate lied is very disapointing.
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so assuming that it was Michael's own tape was edited back in the day, then you do realize that is not an edit done by the Estate and something they could not know and lie about, right?

Also did any of you ever consider that Michael performed the songs pretty much the same way and the camera angles and shots were pretty much the same across the concerts? this is a world tour of the same concert X hundred of times, it's not an extremely different concert each day.
 
ivy said:
Also did any of you ever consider that Michael performed the songs pretty much the same way and the camera angles and shots were pretty much the same across the concerts? this is a world tour of the same concert X hundred of times, it's not an extremely different concert each day.
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Partly agree, but not entirely. Michael doesn't always do significant moves 100% the same. Like, head turning here and there, sudden arm swing or something. Those little things are the differences that geeky fans (I'm slightly a bit of that lol) who watch and analyse amateurs notice. True, his performances are pretty much the same, but the little things vary.
 
ivy said:
Also did any of you ever consider that Michael performed the songs pretty much the same way and the camera angles and shots were pretty much the same across the concerts? this is a world tour of the same concert X hundred of times, it's not an extremely different concert each day.
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This is a point I was going to make. By this point in the tour both Michael and the video crew have a pretty set pattern in place which they would probably only deviate slightly from night to night. For instance, "Another Part Of Me" probably always started with the shot of the guitar superimposed over Michael dancing.
 
ivy said:
welcome to the club.

there's a fine line between fair criticism and obsessed negativity.

I have also seen another person claiming Estate is lying that Wembley DVD ranked #1 in USA because they can't see it on the online Billboard charts. They fail to realize that Wembley DVD ranking was first written by Yahoo music and Billboard charts are also published as hard copy and also sent to all of the industry people.
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I agree. Fans go to Amazon and give the release one star because they are displeased with the package! I have seen that today on Amazon. The review was nothing but whining about how the package sucks. Even if someone thinks so, surely there is something positive in the release too, like the demos or Michael's performance in the concert, but you give it one star because you don't like the package? Obsessive negativity - yeah, that is the right term.
 
I don't think they added footage from other Wembley concerts. They had almost same camera angles and effects for the JumboTron video every Wembley concert so it may look like some clips are from other concerts.
 
I mean here is the biggest international forum, right? So many fans all around world are here. So, they have to check this website. They have to read what we want, what we expect. They have to share infos etc. They have to speak with us.

IMO these discussions are helpful, they have to know we search everything; even cameras on tours :) They have to be careful when release something new.
 
http://tx7.me/2012/09/30/the-michael-jackson-estate-lie-again/

I just watched the both videos at the same time and only the camera angles were almost the same. The performance is a little different. Only time it looked almost the same was before the 2nd chorus.

DJ_OXyGeNe_8 said:
I mean here is the biggest international forum, right? So many fans all around world are here. So, they have to check this website. They have to read what we want, what we expect. They have to share infos etc. They have to speak with us.

IMO these discussions are helpful, they have to know we search everything; even cameras on tours :) They have to be careful when release something new.
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I hope too that they read this forum
 
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Can anyone tell me how the quality of the "Bad In Japan" DVD is when compared to this one of the Wembley show included in the Bad25 package?

Please split up the comparison in video quality and audio quality when comparing.

Thanks in advance, appreciated !
I am considering buying the "Bad In Japan" DVD, that's why I am asking.
 
gbee sorry for bad english, really hard to translate for me. Is there any different way to say the same thing?
 
Im not sure. what you were trying to say? Estate supporters maybe - that's what I understood anyway
 
I think Oxygene was trying to ask if Estate representatives are members on MJJC. The answer is partly yes, they also read the forums and we can also send them questions but partly no in the sense that they don't actively take part in discussion on the forum.
 
Thank you Ivy I believe you are correct DJ was asking if any part of the estate was members here. I misunderstood.
I know the Esates represenatives "MJonlineteam" reads the BAD25 forum so they can stay informed..
 
Yes that was exactly what I asked :) Thanks for the info. So if they read, I'm happy.
 
So Billie Jean is cut from two shows. Look at the lead to the right of the middle set of steps. Just before the end it disappears, then comes back for Bad.
 
If you blame estate, the video editors, then you can blame MJ then! -_- Remember how sloppy MSG 2001 was edited?

It wasn't the estate that did the editing of the VHS, they simply added some crowd shots after WBSS and stuff. Other than those crowd shots, all the songs are clearly from the same source. MJ likely had this VHS made from Nocturne and if he wanted more than one show, he had control over editing as well. Read his Ebony 2007 interview, where he states the importance of editing. But MJ sees things differently from how we see things hence we sometimes get sloppy editing.

And it is completely normal, even when MJ was alive, for the use of more than one concert audio/video. Look at Bucharest and Munich! It is possible this VHS was thought by the estate to just be July 16 (and used July 16 audio anyways) but the video was edited as a "best of Wembley" mix.

I am still unsure what to say about if there is another concert or not. His movements and the camera angles are VERY similar in many of the concerts. They are programmed in such a way plus the performances of Billie Jean in the Bad Tour were more consistent and more of a fixed length, always around 7 minutes. HIStory had playback but the length always varied even in concerts right after each other - Copenhagen was ~ 8:10 while Gothenburg was ~8:50. Helsinki and Auckland were record-long at 9 minutes.
 
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Frankyboy5 said:
If you blame estate, the video editors, then you can blame MJ then! -_- Remember how sloppy MSG 2001 was edited?

It wasn't the estate that did the editing of the VHS, they simply added some crowd shots after WBSS and stuff. MJ likely had this VHS made from Nocturne and if he wanted more than one show, he had control over editing as well. Read his Ebony 2007 interview, where he states the importance of editing. But MJ sees things differently from how we see things hence we sometimes get sloppy editing.

And it is completely normal, even when MJ was alive, for the use of more than one concert audio/video. Look at Bucharest and Munich! It is possible this VHS was thought by the estate to just be July 16 (and used July 16 audio anyways) but the video was edited as a "best of Wembley" mix.

I am still unsure what to say about if there is another concert or not. His movements and the camera angles are VERY similar in many of the concerts. They are programmed in such a way plus the performances of Billie Jean in the Bad Tour were more consistent and more of a fixed length, always around 7 minutes. HIStory had playback but the length always varied even in concerts right after each other - Copenhagen was ~ 8:10 while Gothenburg was ~8:50. Helsinki and Auckland were record-long at 9 minutes.
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It's not the camera angles or moves that are the issue, it's the lead which moves and then comes back again at the end of BJ. The most likely explanation is that a few frames of the video were damaged and they replaced them with frames from another show. No big deal. I can't see why Michael would edit one small part of his own private video.
 
Some people sayin that the Estate shouldn't lie about it being untouched because they supposedly edited Billie Jean for the first half of the song..

how should they have market this DVD then?, '' Michael Jackson Live from Wembley July 16th 1988, straight from Michaels private VHS, untouched, (Except for the first half of Billie Jean that was edited in from July 23rd for various reasons). ''

thats a bit ridicilous if you ask me.
 
StellaJackson said:
It's not the camera angles or moves that are the issue, it's the lead which moves and then comes back again at the end of BJ. The most likely explanation is that a few frames of the video were damaged and they replaced them with frames from another show. No big deal. I can't see why Michael would edit one small part of his own private video.
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No, the estate couldn't have edited it. The quality of the tape is constant throughout. MJ probably requested for an edit during the making of the VHS. As for why TWYMMF was not edited into the VHS, this was because he had it on other sources than this specific VHS, as he showed snippets in Private Home Movies.

Another possibility, that amateur tape had footage from both concerts throughout and may have been edited by the fan. There are some parts where it sorta breaks off.

And ugh TJ. As much as I agree with him on some subjects like the Michael album, he's full of bs. The performances simply don't look the same. In July 23 he jumped real fast to the mic stand for his last line but in the DVD one wherever it's from, he does a neat pointing move.

Makes me wanna see July 23 in full though, blue shirt and TWYMMF.
 
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and I see the ending of BJ, that's quite stupid looking, he's walking on the wrong leg when it changes angle. And I see a black thing at the end of the staircase. Also the position of his hands are not the same either.

Although what Stella pointed out was reasonable, because the frames really start to judder real bad when you view the previous angle before it changes angle (the fail edit I mentioned above, while MJ walks back for the last shuffle tap).

It's definitely not from July 23. Probably 15th or 14th or 22nd.
July 16
WembleyHopPointJuly16.jpg

Mystery concert
wembleypoint.jpg


Note the black thingy at the top step. In the previous Wembley (or possibly Barcelona) snippet we've had for years, it's a huge black thingy in the middle step. Interesting thing in the DVD is that a black thingy on the third step is there on WDAN and Human Nature for example, but it's not in Bad or Billie Jean, but in those cases it is thinner unlike this big black blob at the end of Billie Jean.


Actually now I think there IS a difference in quality. This mystery concert video (I'm talking about the one edited into the DVD not the YT vid above) looks more pixely (but actually looks a bit better because it has some grain) and has a more greenish-grey tint compared to the purple and red tint of the rest of the performance.
 
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The lack of continuity editing you've described (with the feet and hands) reminds me of the Smooth Criminal scene in This Is It where the editing in the intro sequence is very poorly done, as the arms never truly match up. It's quite funny to watch, actually. But anyway, the fact that it begins to jitter as you said corroborates the theory that these shots were placed in to supplement frames that were do damaged by VHS wear.
 
which makes me wish we had the unknown Wembley concert, the pointing (MJ normally did not hold his hand on his hat while pointing in the Bad era) and side-crouch he does there are SICK!
 
Frankyboy5 said:
and I see the ending of BJ, that's quite stupid looking, he's walking on the wrong leg when it changes angle. And I see a black thing at the end of the staircase. Also the position of his hands are not the same either.

Although what Stella pointed out was reasonable, because the frames really start to judder real bad when you view the previous angle before it changes angle (the fail edit I mentioned above, while MJ walks back for the last shuffle tap).

It's definitely not from July 23. Probably 15th or 14th or 22nd.
July 16
WembleyHopPointJuly16.jpg

Mystery concert
wembleypoint.jpg


Note the black thingy at the top step. In the previous Wembley (or possibly Barcelona) snippet we've had for years, it's a huge black thingy in the middle step. Interesting thing in the DVD is that a black thingy on the third step is there on WDAN and Human Nature for example, but it's not in Bad or Billie Jean, but in those cases it is thinner unlike this big black blob at the end of Billie Jean.


Actually now I think there IS a difference in quality. This mystery concert video (I'm talking about the one edited into the DVD not the YT vid above) looks more pixely (but actually looks a bit better because it has some grain) and has a more greenish-grey tint compared to the purple and red tint of the rest of the performance.
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Your right. That black thing just appears on the steps. Its not there on 6:37 but it is there on 7:03

 
I realize this judder or choppiness I mentioned is not in that upload. It only appears when you play back the video at 60fps (59.94 deinterlaced). It should be there at 6:48.

Although it is understandable that they did that because they couldnt recover those frames there, if they could at least get something every few seconds and add some motion blur or something to "fake" the framerate, I would be okay with that. (Sony and other TV makers have this "motionflow" technology, which make up frames that don't exist).
 
I want to say to those who mistake critism with complaning. Just because the restaurators get money for that, doesn't mean they do it right and propertly.
just because they are "professionals" doesn't mean they are "experts". just because none of us does do remastering for living, doesn't mean we are not right and can't not judge.
Yes, we don't know how the original vhs looked like, but that doesn't mean we can't see the mistakes that are done in the final product.

Here is example . even with HQ source (in this case original print), can be screwed.

left: vhs releasse, right : restored blu-ray

open in new tab to see in full size

Cinderella_VHSvsBD.jpg


Conclusion. over-filtering can distory the best sourse. this has happened to many remastered movies and that's what happened with this live dvd.
And to me someone who makes such mistakes is amateur and not "expert".

Most of the time, less is better.

I must correct myself.

Always, less us better.
 
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I've started to think that these estate hater, conspiracy people either have no life or no job, seriously. I've seen some of this shit on twitter and who seriously has time to pick apart every single second of everything and come up with theory after theory!?

As for "fans" giving Bad25 one star on amazon, that reflects on Michael. If non fans go there and see that, they're not going to buy it either. If you don't like it, boohoo, but don't try ruin it for everyone else and for Michael's legacy.
 
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