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Would your opinion on Victory change if Michael was the lead singer?

KOPV said:
Are we really going to say that we (and the general public) don't favor the songs MJ plays a more dominate roll vocally?
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The general (mainstream) public never paid that much attention to The Jacksons music anyway, because they were primarily marketed to R&B radio in the USA. They didn't have that much crossover. R&B listeners were their main audience, it's the same with Jermaine's solo records. I doubt a lot of the mainstream audience even know the 2 Gamble & Huff or the 2300 albums exist. Victory is the biggest selling Jacksons album, probably because it came out after Thriller. Even with that, R&B radio played The Hurt & One More Chance which weren't singles. Video Soul on BET showed the Body video a lot, and even broadcast a making of it.
 
zinniabooklover said:
Unfortunately, it doesn't predate the Brotherhood of Man performance in 1981 on the Eurovision Song contest. Skirt ripping just didn't survive that, for me. :ROFLMAO:
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What are you talking about? I youtubed but this band was in Eurosong in 1976. Explain!
 
filmandmusic said:
What are you talking about? I youtubed but this band was in Eurosong in 1976. Explain!
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oh, sorry! Was it 76? My brain is mashed potato atm, lol. Anyway, my point is, they did the skirt ripping thing before Mick Jagger ripped off Tina Turner's skirt and I can't get that dreadful image out of my head (Kylie!) and so the Mick/Tina thing doesn't work for me.

god, was it really 1976?

jeez!
 
a related question I have is, what would the ‘torture’ video be like if michael was in it?

although I find it disturbing (far more than ‘thriller’), it’s great to see so many of michael’s trademarks; the single sparkly glove and sparkly socks, the moonwalk, the aviator sunglasses 🕶️, the sparkly military jacket.. the video was made at the peak of ‘michael-mania’.💜

I can’t seem to find an official reason why michael (or jermaine for that matter) were absent. they were the lead singers of the song.

I heard that michael went to disneyland with emmanuel lewis. I can only speculate, but I think that because michael was already in hot water with the jehovah’s witnesses over ‘thriller’ (to the point where he wouldn’t even perform the song on tour), he didn’t want to be involved in something even darker.

who knows?
 
83magic said:
a related question I have is, what would the ‘torture’ video be like if michael was in it?

although I find it disturbing (far more than ‘thriller’), it’s great to see so many of michael’s trademarks; the single sparkly glove and sparkly socks, the moonwalk, the aviator sunglasses 🕶️, the sparkly military jacket.. the video was made at the peak of ‘michael-mania’.💜

I can’t seem to find an official reason why michael (or jermaine for that matter) were absent. they were the lead singers of the song.

I heard that michael went to disneyland with emmanuel lewis. I can only speculate, but I think that because michael was already in hot water with the jehovah’s witnesses over ‘thriller’ (to the point where he wouldn’t even perform the song on tour), he didn’t want to be involved in something even darker.

who knows?
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Michael most likely felt over exposed and wanted to step away from filming....not sure on Jermaine's reason for being absent but if that was the case, the video version should've been replaced with Jackie's original lead vocals on first verse.
 
filmandmusic said:
I doubt this

I thought I was the only one finding bad dated, I had no idea it was a thing in the fandom. I thought it was his most popular album by far.

I doubt this as well, people find the album too long and like Invincible a too drastic change in sound. Quincy wouldn’t have made a difference I reckon

I personally dislike 2300 I’m not a fan of the NJS sound I don’t find the songs particularly strong personally. Compared to what the brothers wrote in the early 80s for me there is a big gulf in quality material
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It is one of his most popular albums released (I’d say 2nd behind Thriller). The album being somewhat a product of its time has nothing to do with the quality of the album. I wish people in general would stop equating “dated” with “bad” (no pun intended) as in lesser quality. I’d like to say that 90% of the music from the 80s , especially mid to late, has that 80s sounds with gated snares etc but they’re still considered great classics. Prince, Phil Collins, Human League, Madonna, Whitney Houston etc.

Don’t get me started on the new Jack swing “dated” discussions going around as well.
 
Themidwestcowboy said:
It is one of his most popular albums released (I’d say 2nd behind Thriller). The album being somewhat a product of its time has nothing to do with the quality of the album. I wish people in general would stop equating “dated” with “bad” (no pun intended) as in lesser quality. I’d like to say that 90% of the music from the 80s , especially mid to late, has that 80s sounds with gated snares etc but they’re still considered great classics. Prince, Phil Collins, Human League, Madonna, Whitney Houston etc.

Don’t get me started on the new Jack swing “dated” discussions going around as well.
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I actually agree, I think I have never gotten over that it doesn’t sound like off the wall or thriller
 
Eh, not really. I might be more keen to listen to it, but the actual material is lacking across the board in my opinion.
 
To answer the thread: MJ would have definitely elevated some songs like Wait and One More Chance but I just don’t think the material was strong enough. I’m not too fond of the MJ penned tracks either.
 
Themidwestcowboy said:
To answer the thread: MJ would have definitely elevated some songs like Wait and One More Chance but I just don’t think the material was strong enough. I’m not too fond of the MJ penned tracks either.
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Don't you think "wait" has a really good drive about it. It is a great dance track. It's a class song in its own right, Michael on leads would have catapulted it to stardom I really believe that.

I'm most likely on the minority but the worst song on the album is state of shock. It's got a great guitar riff and vocals but It feels like an unfinished demo. It is also why Mick and Tina only performed it for half its length.
 
Dear me Be Not Always is so gloomy. It is one of the most nihilistic depressing songs I ever heard. It also just ends silent with the words death promises. It is very unlike Michael to be negative. Maybe he didn't want to associate himself more with this songs as he wanted to spread a positive message. I was listening to this song just now and all I could think of was the current Israel/Palestine war. This song is as hopeless as that conflict. Bow our heads in shame, bow our heads in blame. It makes a clear case that we are all guilty on atrocities.

I want to make a case we can change the world as well. This is a very layered song, with an absolute "sick" beat to use a youthful word. I think it would have been a perfect fit for Captain EO, more so than we are here to change the world. Michael you should have sang this man!

The Hurt is also pretty freaking sweet. There is the clear MJ autograph in it, his background vocals are fantastic and after the opening there is that synth melody coming in which comes straight from MJ's songwriting book. He should have sang this too...
 
Themidwestcowboy said:
To answer the thread: MJ would have definitely elevated some songs like Wait and One More Chance but I just don’t think the material was strong enough. I’m not too fond of the MJ penned tracks either.
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I'm sure he could've elevated them but Victory wasn't really a group effort.....just songs brought in individually. I'd love to hear the rest of the songs they worked on since they already had 15 songs ready by March of 83
 
filmandmusic said:
Don't you think "wait" has a really good drive about it. It is a great dance track. It's a class song in its own right, Michael on leads would have catapulted it to stardom I really believe that.

I'm most likely on the minority but the worst song on the album is state of shock. It's got a great guitar riff and vocals but It feels like an unfinished demo. It is also why Mick and Tina only performed it for half its length.
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Absolutely. Wait is my favorite track from the album (especially the 7 version) and MJ would have elevated that track for sure. I think it would have become a big hit if he sung the lead on that song.

I’m sorta torn when it comes to state of shock. I love the original demo with Freddie and the released version just doesn’t hit the same.
 
Controversial or perhaps not...

State of Shock is a poor song , regardless of the singer , could be Mick or Freddie it still sucks.

I much preferred Torture.
 
83magic said:
a related question I have is, what would the ‘torture’ video be like if michael was in it?
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I see a video with gothic vibes, lots of smoke, shadows, contrasts. We never see the mysterious woman, only glimpses or mirages, close ups, slow motion. I don’t know if you are familiar with films but there used to be an Italian genre called “giallo” which were basically murder mysteries but …edgy, not shy with nudity, controversial subjects, graphic violence. What I liked most about these films was the suspense and it is this suspense I can see working for a possible video

Now to make something coherent out of it 😀
 
it highlights the fact that ‘torture’ and ‘state of shock’ are just weaker versions of ‘thriller’ and ‘beat it’.
 
Actually state of shock would be more close to a the girl is mine sequel imo

Hmm Torture, I think it is really really good. Michael’s verse is phenomenal, the chorus is super catchy.
 
filmandmusic said:
Actually state of shock would be more close to a the girl is mine sequel imo

Hmm Torture, I think it is really really good. Michael’s verse is phenomenal, the chorus is super catchy.
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It's Beat It, P.Y.T, and Say Say Say thrown into a blender really
 
filmandmusic said:
Actually state of shock would be more close to a the girl is mine sequel imo

Hmm Torture, I think it is really really good. Michael’s verse is phenomenal, the chorus is super catchy.
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I really like ‘somebody’s watching me’. I wish there was a solo version. I think it’s leaps and bounds ahead of ‘torture’, though I do agree that michael sounds amazing on it.

the horror theme got really stale in my opinion though. neither ‘state of shock’ or ‘torture’ broke new ground compared to ‘thriller’.
 
Tbh, most of what MJ did in between Thriller and Bad has dated pretty poorly. Not Say Say Say or Somebody's Watching Me. You could make the case, even though I like it all. And the outtakes he shelved in this time was still excellent.
 
The 'Victory' album looked like a way for Michael Jackson's brothers to ride on his coattails, right after the big success of his 'Thriller' album.

In any case, the 'Victory' album is not really a good album because the songs are melodically weak and easily forgettable.

So, even if Michael Jackson was the lead singer of that album, this would not have improved the album overall.

For example, 'Torture' sounds like a cheap attempt to recreate the feel and appeal of the 'Thriller' song.

'Body' sounds like another cheap attempt to recreate the feel and appeal of the 'Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough' song.

'One More Chance' sounds like a very ordinary RnB ballad and Randy Jackson sings his lines with no emotion at all.

One wonders how even worse the outtakes from the 'Victory' album were.
 
mj_frenzy said:
The 'Victory' album looked like a way for Michael Jackson's brothers to ride on his coattails, right after the big success of his 'Thriller' album.

In any case, the 'Victory' album is not really a good album because the songs are melodically weak and easily forgettable.

So, even if Michael Jackson was the lead singer of that album, this would not have improved the album overall.

For example, 'Torture' sounds like a cheap attempt to recreate the feel and appeal of the 'Thriller' song.

'Body' sounds like another cheap attempt to recreate the feel and appeal of the 'Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough' song.

'One More Chance' sounds like a very ordinary RnB ballad and Randy Jackson sings his lines with no emotion at all.

One wonders how even worse the outtakes from the 'Victory' album were.
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Buffallo Bill (wink, wink)
 
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