Latest on MJJC

Would your opinion on Victory change if Michael was the lead singer?

mj_frenzy said:
The 'Victory' album looked like a way for Michael Jackson's brothers to ride on his coattails, right after the big success of his 'Thriller' album.
Click to expand...
Maybe but imo what they came up with was very good imo. Who knows how this album came to happen though, maybe Michael gave them some freedom? I wonder how cheated the album buyers felt in 84 expecting Michael on lead vocals.
mj_frenzy said:
In any case, the 'Victory' album is not really a good album because the songs are melodically weak and easily forgettable.
Click to expand...
Honestly I love it big time lol, all 8 songs!
mj_frenzy said:
So, even if Michael Jackson was the lead singer of that album, this would not have improved the album overall.
Click to expand...
It would have been even better. I’m guessing it would be be top 3 if he had done leads in my personal list
mj_frenzy said:
For example, 'Torture' sounds like a cheap attempt to recreate the feel and appeal of the 'Thriller' song.
Click to expand...
the only similarity is in the slightly scary lyrics I suppose
mj_frenzy said:
'Body' sounds like another cheap attempt to recreate the feel and appeal of the 'Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough' song.
Click to expand...
Wanna Be Starting Something imo
mj_frenzy said:
'One More Chance' sounds like a very ordinary RnB ballad and Randy Jackson sings his lines with no emotion at all.
Click to expand...
Again I love it but I somewhat agree on the vocals
mj_frenzy said:
One wonders how even worse the outtakes from the 'Victory' album were.
Click to expand...
I wonder too but in a much more positive way!
 
mj_frenzy said:
The 'Victory' album looked like a way for Michael Jackson's brothers to ride on his coattails, right after the big success of his 'Thriller' album.

In any case, the 'Victory' album is not really a good album because the songs are melodically weak and easily forgettable.

So, even if Michael Jackson was the lead singer of that album, this would not have improved the album overall.

For example, 'Torture' sounds like a cheap attempt to recreate the feel and appeal of the 'Thriller' song.

'Body' sounds like another cheap attempt to recreate the feel and appeal of the 'Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough' song.

'One More Chance' sounds like a very ordinary RnB ballad and Randy Jackson sings his lines with no emotion at all.

One wonders how even worse the outtakes from the 'Victory' album were.
Click to expand...
I have seen this argument being brought up many times (that it was ahead of its time when it was released in 2001), but I never agreed with that.

The sound of the up-tempo tracks did not really offer something that the listeners never heard before that album's release.

For example, the sound of the Rodney Jerkins tracks had already been prevalent before that album came out (such as, Destiny's Child).

MJ even whispers the word Darkchild (at the beginning of You Rock My World), a common tactic that Rodney Jerkins used to impose upon his artists at that time as a digital signature for his songs.

But also even lyrically, Invincible rehashed mainly old themes that never appealed to most people/fans.

You see the way you used to Almost talk like a normal person back in the day? What has happened to you?
 
83magic said:
I really like ‘somebody’s watching me’. I wish there was a solo version. I think it’s leaps and bounds ahead of ‘torture’, though I do agree that michael sounds amazing on it.

the horror theme got really stale in my opinion though. neither ‘state of shock’ or ‘torture’ broke new ground compared to ‘thriller’.
Click to expand...
Where would you rank tell me I'm not dreaming out of somebody's watching me and torture?

I really like tell me I'm not dreaming, I know it's technically Jermaine's song but Michael steals the show like always.
 
mj_frenzy said:
The 'Victory' album looked like a way for Michael Jackson's brothers to ride on his coattails, right after the big success of his 'Thriller' album.

In any case, the 'Victory' album is not really a good album because the songs are melodically weak and easily forgettable.

So, even if Michael Jackson was the lead singer of that album, this would not have improved the album overall.

For example, 'Torture' sounds like a cheap attempt to recreate the feel and appeal of the 'Thriller' song.

'Body' sounds like another cheap attempt to recreate the feel and appeal of the 'Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough' song.

'One More Chance' sounds like a very ordinary RnB ballad and Randy Jackson sings his lines with no emotion at all.

One wonders how even worse the outtakes from the 'Victory' album were.
Click to expand...
Reprehensible similia.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
MJ even whispers the word Darkchild (at the beginning of You Rock My World), a common tactic that Rodney Jerkins used to impose upon his artists at that time as a digital signature for his songs.
Click to expand...
That didn't start with him. Other producers before Darkchild had their names mentioned on songs and/or appeared in the artists music videos such as Full Force, Puff Daddy/P. Diddy, Timbaland, So So Def (Jermaine Dupri), Teddy Riley, etc. Today it's DJ Khaled's "We da best music" or "another one".
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
You see the way you used to Almost talk like a normal person back in the day? What has happened to you?
Click to expand...
I guess puberty hit. Lol. Imagine thinking you’re Wikipedia.org on a daily basis. Must be incredible. Regardless, here’s my nomination for “most normal Frenzy post ever”:

mj_frenzy said:
I do not want to digress but I have to say this:

I never liked Madonna’s persistent intervention in MJ’s style/image during those months (before the release of his ‘Dangerous’ album). Also, I find her remarks about MJ’s image a bit derogatory towards him. I mean, it does not look seemly to say publicly such things about changing one’s whole image.

Besides, MJ had already fashion ideas submitted to him (by top designers, such as Jean Paul Gaultier, or the Tunisian Azzedine Alaïa) as a part of his upcoming projects (album, music clips, tour, etc.). So, Madonna’s intervention also made no sense to me.
Click to expand...
 
Blues_Away2023 said:
Where would you rank tell me I'm not dreaming out of somebody's watching me and torture?

I really like tell me I'm not dreaming, I know it's technically Jermaine's song but Michael steals the show like always.
Click to expand...
with ‘tell me I’m not dreaming (too good to be true)’, I think michael sounded better on (some dates) of the ‘victory’ tour (not toronto), where he was smoother. unfortunately this was around the time that the throaty, grit began to take over on the uptempo tracks. one way that ‘torture’ is superior is michael’s vocals. though it isn’t enough to make up for it not being a good song.

I think ‘tell me I’m not dreaming (too good to be true)’ is bland and forgettable. if it’s on, I won’t skip it. unlike ‘torture’. I guess that puts it at (a distant) second place behind ‘somebody’s watching me’, in the three place ranking.

I honestly think that the only good release in ‘84 was ‘farewell my summer love’, and maybe ‘girl you’re so together’. ‘84 was michael being rightfully rewarded for what he did the previous year, which I believe to be his peak 💜
 
@83magic, I got a random question. Do you listen to songs like Liberian Girl and Little Susie, since they originated from 1978 and 1983 respectively?
 
mj_frenzy said:
For example, 'Torture' sounds like a cheap attempt to recreate the feel and appeal of the 'Thriller' song.

'Body' sounds like another cheap attempt to recreate the feel and appeal of the 'Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough' song.
Click to expand...
Caribbean Queen by Billy Ocean sounds more like Billie Jean than any of these songs do to each other. Billy's song was a big hit too. A lot hit songs starting in the mid-1980s are based on samples. So they directly sound like another song (ig. U Can't Touch This, Ice Ice Baby).
 
I think that if michael was the lead singer on the ‘victory’ album, it would be wrongly looked at as a solo project, and a follow up to ‘thriller’. as a result, it would be great disappointment, and mark a sudden decline in his career. besides, ‘thriller’ was at its peak in popularity. he would have to wait for the hype to die down before releasing another project.
 
83magic said:
I think that if michael was the lead singer on the ‘victory’ album, it would be wrongly looked at as a solo project, and a follow up to ‘thriller’. as a result, it would be great disappointment, and mark a sudden decline in his career. besides, ‘thriller’ was at its peak in popularity. he would have to wait for the hype to die down before releasing another project.
Click to expand...

Yes I think both Michael and his brothers decided it was better not to have him sing lead after thriller. The brothers didn’t just want to be seen as background filler after thriller (understandably) and Michael didn’t want this to be seen as the new thriller.

So why be part of the project, it was just an uneasy awkward solution…which ultimately lead to the buyers being kind of cheated. They weren’t given the product they expected.

But I maintain my stance that I love this album. It is in my all time list in fact. Sometimes things just accidentally work and for me this album works.
 
the jacksons themselves refuse to acknowledge that album to this day. they still tour, yet they perform no songs from it (or ‘2300 jackson street’). tito performs ‘love one another’ but not ‘we can change the world’. jermaine even went as far as to say it damaged their reputation, in an interview he did post 2009.

it all comes down to individual taste, and not what’s popular. I wouldn’t care if I was the only one in the world looking forward to the ‘thriller 40’ documentary 😂
 
filmandmusic said:
Yes I think both Michael and his brothers decided it was better not to have him sing lead after thriller. The brothers didn’t just want to be seen as background filler after thriller (understandably) and Michael didn’t want this to be seen as the new thriller.

So why be part of the project, it was just an uneasy awkward solution…which ultimately lead to the buyers being kind of cheated. They weren’t given the product they expected.

But I maintain my stance that I love this album. It is in my all time list in fact. Sometimes things just accidentally work and for me this album works.
Click to expand...
Michael's heart wasn't in it and he only agreed because of Katherine.....plus I think he was still recovering from the Thriller session....Thriller was released end of 1982 and by March 1983, the group already had 15 songs ready for Victory.....they maybe felt they can contribute to the album by bringing in solo material and collaborating further. I agree with you, I love Victory and even with all the changes that were happening between 1983 and 1984, if they would've honed in with one another, this could've been their Thriller as well
 
It’s sad to think that the victory era is truly where the bad things started for MJ. The controversy with the tickets, the dysfunction within the family (which I suppose had always been there but was amplified during this time) that lead to MJ not participating in the torture video for example. The Pepsi accident.

I’m retrospect, I wish he didn’t participate in the Victory project.
 
Last edited:
Themidwestcowboy said:
It’s sad to think that the victory era is truly where the bad things started for MJ. The controversy with the tickets, the dysfunction within the family (which I suppose has always been there but was amplified during this time) that lead to MJ not participating in the torture video for example. The Pepsi accident.

I’m retrospect, I wish he didn’t participate in the Victory project.
Click to expand...
In my eyes, problems were going to come either way. They were inevitable. After having reached that level of fame and success, there was no way they weren't going to try to drag him through mud, one way or another. Additionally, the Victory project was a great way to end his journey with the brothers and go on with his solo career, bringing it to new heights.
 
Honestly I think people's opinions could be altered on the Victory tour once they see a HD concert of the tour. The stage design imo is really cool, Love the lighting and the backing band in full view. Michael's stage clothes are fantastic too and so are those of the brothers. All of it matches the artwork of the album
 
filmandmusic said:
Honestly I think people's opinions could be altered on the Victory tour once they see a HD concert of the tour. The stage design imo is really cool, Love the lighting and the backing band in full view. Michael's stage clothes are fantastic too and so are those of the brothers. All of it matches the artwork of the album
Click to expand...
Does the average person even care about HD? DVDs still outsell blu-ray & 4K put together. A lot of people watch audience shot cell phone footage of current concerts on Youtube, with shakey footage. Also, except for a few cases I don't think filmed concerts were ever that big of a seller, even in the VHS days. Live albums were popular in the 1960s & 1970s.
 
DuranDuran said:
Does the average person even care about HD? DVDs still outsell blu-ray & 4K put together. A lot of people watch audience shot cell phone footage of current concerts on Youtube, with shakey footage. Also, except for a few cases I don't think filmed concerts were ever that big of a seller, even in the VHS days. Live albums were popular in the 1960s & 1970s.
Click to expand...
I don’t care if it sells or not, it is the idea that people will appreciate the victory tour more if they see it in good quality. The tour is now dismissed because Michael supposedly didn’t want to perform in it. It could be true but for anyone who makes the effort to watch the available shows they can only say that he was giving 100% on these shows and that he arguably never sounded better.

The average person cares about great(er) quality, most fans here were going crazy when it was announced that beat it and thriller videos would be available in the highest quality after decades
People who attended a victory tour show would no doubt want to relive the experience the way they saw it in perfect quality with their own eyes.

PS I use HD just to note “high quality”. I don’t know anything technical about it Nor do I know the differences between 4k and HD but I do know the difference between something looking good and something looking bad and what we have of the victory tour on youtube looks bad.
 
filmandmusic said:
I don’t care if it sells or not, it is the idea that people will appreciate the victory tour more if they see it in good quality. The tour is now dismissed because Michael supposedly didn’t want to perform in it. It could be true but for anyone who makes the effort to watch the available shows they can only say that he was giving 100% on these shows and that he arguably never sounded better.

The average person cares about great(er) quality, most fans here were going crazy when it was announced that beat it and thriller videos would be available in the highest quality after decades
People who attended a victory tour show would no doubt want to relive the experience the way they saw it in perfect quality with their own eyes.

PS I use HD just to note “high quality”. I don’t know anything technical about it Nor do I know the differences between 4k and HD but I do know the difference between something looking good and something looking bad and what we have of the victory tour on youtube looks bad.
Click to expand...
If a lot of people wanted to watch the Victory concerts, they'd watch it anyway no matter what the video quality. They don't. Very few Jacksons or J5 videos of any kind have a whole lot of views on Youtube. I Want You Back from the Indiana TV special has over a hundred million views and the video quality of that isn't HD.

As far as "most fans here" goes, that has nothing to do with the general public because most people do not post on fansites, A lot of the general public might post on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, or Facebook. This site is not even as busy as it was years ago when more people posted here, and not just in the Mike only section.
 
Can someone explain to me what the hell happened with Victory? I read Moonwalker and he tried really hard to prevent it, what went wrong?
 
filmandmusic said:
Honestly I think people's opinions could be altered on the Victory tour once they see a HD concert of the tour. The stage design imo is really cool, Love the lighting and the backing band in full view. Michael's stage clothes are fantastic too and so are those of the brothers. All of it matches the artwork of the album
Click to expand...
i personally think think this is the best representation/summary of the tour.
not sure if this is exactly ‘new’, but I don’t think I’ve seen it before 🤔
 
HD isn't exactly necessary; Motown 25 will be SD forever. It's still an iconic moment. Remastered quality means nicer detail and a nicer viewing experience.

DVDs are cheaper and more common with that said. Streaming and YouTube is mostly free and everywhere in comparison.
 
83magic said:
what do you think of it?
Click to expand...
The same as always, I wanna see more lol
I love the victory tour over the bad tour it is as simple as that.

3.22 great spinnig by Marlon and 3.58 nice little move from MJ
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top