Coroners Report released - GRAPHIC CONTENT (Threads merged)

[ensleyave]

So if he was too sleepy or out of it to do these other things, Why would a doctor listen to a patient in this state supposedly begging for propofol. In a hospital they definetly would not give it to you or any other medicines that is not sufficient for that particular situation.

 

[daisy]

So if he was too sleepy or out of it to do these other things, Why would a doctor listen to a patient in this state supposedly begging for propofol. In a hospital they definetly would not give it to you or any other medicines that is not sufficient for that particular situation.

I´m saying that almost from my first post here. I´m wondering whether Michael was consious at themoment of being given propofol. Even if formulating words, patients in this state say nonsense and are never taken seriously by the doctors, just monitored in terms of their state.

 

[sophie]

the male nurse had a urine concentration of 5.4 and the urine bladder was 450ml , while MJ had a urine concentration of 0.15 with a urine bladder of 550 . We can not determine for sure how much he was given , but it wa for sure for only minutes and not hours like the male nurse .

its possible murray gave earlier injections, and the propofol from these would have metabolized and show in the urine. to know this we need the amount of propofol found under urine hydrolysis.

same for the urine found on the scene which was probably from earlier the night. it contained only a small amount of propofol but most of it would have metabolized. to estimate how much propofol mj was given while the urine was collected we need the amount under hydrolysis.

 

[daisy]

its possible murray gave earlier injections, and the propofol from these would have metabolized and show in the urine. to know this we need the amount of propofol found under urine hydrolysis.

same for the urine found on the scene which was probably from earlier the night. it contained only a small amount of propofol but most of it would have metabolized. to estimate how much propofol mj was given while the urine was collected we need the amount under hydrolysis.

I have a question (sorry if not relevant) - does propofol metabolise in urine in the bladder just the same way it would do in the bottle (when outside of the body)? Quicker in the bottle than in the bladder'? The other way around? Does not matter'?

 

[AllForMJ]

Here's another thought about the beads...

What if they ended up under MJ from Murray lifting him up to put his arm behind his back while performing that one-handed CPR crap that he was doing?

 

[daisy]

Here's another thought about the beads...

What if they ended up under MJ from Murray lifting him up to put his arm behind his back while performing that one-handed CPR crap that he was doing?

this is possible.
It has been considered here that these abrasions were the effect of moving Michael on the bed once Murray noticed what´s happened, only that it was exactly THE moment of Michael´s death.

 

[sophie]

I have a question (sorry if not relevant) - does propofol metabolise in urine in the bladder just the same way it would do in the bottle (when outside of the body)? Quicker in the bottle than in the bladder'? The other way around? Does not matter'?

i dont think the metabolization continues once its in the urine. from what i understand it only shows in the urine. the metabolization is done inside the body, like the liver. i'm not a medically trained person however. do we have an expert on the board who can comment on this?

watch this diagram:

http://www.metrohealthanesthesia.com/edu/ivanes/propofol3.htm

 

[Soundmind]

Here's another thought about the beads...

What if they ended up under MJ from Murray lifting him up to put his arm behind his back while performing that one-handed CPR crap that he was doing?

yeah , that's what I believe happened , but as someone else said that only means he was there beside his bed and noticed immediatley because clearly they are assuming in the coroner's report he was giving him bolus injections .

 

[rainny]

So we have concluded MJ did or did not have a catheter (urine) on?

On page 3 about body examination:

' There was also an external urine catheter.'

 

[wendy2004]

Second point. The 2 Urines. This seems very interesting to me for 2 reasons. Propofol, lidocaine and benzos were found in BOTH samples. Now think about this for a second or two. Urine production STOPS or declines after death, yet Michael had more urine in his bladder waiting to be excreted (550 ml)....just a little more than what was found in the bottle (450 ml). His bladder was distended...which sorta means it was kinda "full" and time for him to possibly "go" again.

Now, if BOTH samples contain propofol and benzos, could Michael have had that much liquid in him to produce BOTH propofol and benzo laced urines in such a small amount of time? To me, it suggests Murray was giving Michael propofol earlier/longer than he claimed?

What do you think? Do you think it's possible that Michael could have been able to produce the sample in the bottle AND what was STILL in his bladder between 10:40 til when the paramedics got there and he appeared to have lost signs of life? Remember if Murray, per his version of things, put Michael out at 10:40. Michael couldn't have produced enuf urine to "go" twice in that amount of time, could he? In less than 2 hours? I know they found lots of empty orange juice bottles on the nightstand so MAYBE he was drinking a lot to hydrate himself. But if he didn't receive propofol til 10:40am he could have gone to the bathroom on his own (all night and into the morning) and empty his bladder. He'd only need the catheter thingy for when he was going to be put out for long periods of time and unable to go on his own, right?

If any of you have ever been catheterized can remember how often you "went" (this is one time where TMI might be helpful) or if you had any control over how often you "went"...or if it just happened randomly without any control from you, this might be helpful.

its possible murray gave earlier injections, and the propofol from these would have metabolized and show in the urine. to know this we need the amount of propofol found under urine hydrolysis.

same for the urine found on the scene which was probably from earlier the night. it contained only a small amount of propofol but most of it would have metabolized. to estimate how much propofol mj was given while the urine was collected we need the amount under hydrolysis.

Thank you for the clarification about hydrolysis. The bolded part is what I initially thought as well. The exact same things were found in both the urine bladder and the urine in the bottle. So I guess the other issue is whether or not the urine in the bottle came from an earlier release that night/morning (via cathether?) or from a previous night...which somehow I doubt. It wouldn't be farfetched but IF the contents in the bottle came from a previous night, that would date the urine as being over 24 hours old. If one is to believe Murray, he hadn't given Michael propofol in over 24 hours (no propofol was allegedly used to put MJ to "sleep" on the night of June 23rd). So that propofol-benzo-ephedrine laced urine in the bottle had to have come from the night of the 24th-25th OR from the 22nd (which would have been more than 24 hours prior). It's possible, the bottled urine is what Murray took off of Michael when he "found him" not breathing and was cleaning up the scene. If I remember the autopsy report correctly, they only found the catheter on Michael, no bag was attached. Perhaps Murray emptied the contents of the bag into the bottle.


I think it was Soundmind who mentioned that Murray seems to be telling another Fat Fib about what he gave Michael in the days leading up to the 25th. The tox reports, thus far, do not support his statements.

Translation: We can't really rely on Murray's statements about squat. It's all about the tox reports and what THEY say. Looks like those tox reports are going to have to do the majority of the speaking for Michael and Murray about what really happened that night/morning. It's obvious the doc hid evidence (medical items found in other places) and withheld information on the scene (didn't tell paramedics about propofol). NOTHING that comes out of this ***********'s mouth is reliable. NOTHING. The more FACTS we find out, the more I'm convinced of this. He's full of it.

The only problem I'm worried about concerning the tox reports and science doing ALL the talking is that right now I have very little faith in the prosecution being able to put it all into proper context...especially considering their preconceived notions about MJ's health. Time will tell how aggressively they plan to be in putting the pieces of this puzzle together... or if they give 2 craps to even bother...BUT Imma give them the benefit of the doubt and wait and see. This case shouldn't be hard, but if they misread what the tox reports are revealing to them, they can muck this up badly. The preliminary hearing might give us a better idea of exactly how well they're deciphering the evidence they actually have before them...whether it gives us a better idea of what took place that night and/or how much of it discredits Murray's statements.


The thing about the beads is very interesting, too. Kinda makes me wonder tho. Did Michael sleep with his beads on or did he take them off every night? One thing is for sure, he couldn't have been conscious when those beads were under him as they would have been uncomfortable. Naturally, he would have moved them himself. And if he was in bed unconscious, under the influence of propofol, he surely wasn't moving around in that bed for the beads to casually roll beneath him on their own. Someone PUT Michael on top of those beads (not realizing they were there, of course.) He was definitely moved or Murray moved his body around. When, from where, and WHY is the question.

Using the information that bouee pulled from the search warrants and posted to show the time and dosage of the various things Murray gave to MJ, combined with a breakdown of the approximate 47 minutes worth of phone calls that Murray made while he claimed he was in the restroom for only 2 minutes, combined with the time that Murray finally ran downstairs to get help, and combined with the time that the 911 call was finally made, etc., the timeline, or chain of events, look something like this...

1:30 am Diazepam 10 mg

2:00 am Lorazepam 2 mg IV

3:00 am Midazolam 2mg IV

5:00 am Lorazepam 2mg IV

7:30 am Midazolam 2 mg

10:40 am Propofol 25 mg

11:18 am - Phone call to Las Vegas office (32 minutes / as being reported)

11:49 am - Phone call to a Las Vegas cell phone (3 minutes / as being reported)

11:51 am - Phone call to Houston (11 minutes / as being reported)

12:05 or 12:10 pm - Murray runs downstairs and screams, "Go get Prince!" (According to Chef)

12:12 pm - Phone call to a Jackson associate at Neverland Ranch (1 minute / as being reported)

12:21 pm - 911 is called by someone other than Murray while Murray is performing CPR in an unusual way. (To hear Murray in background during 911 call, go to Youtube)

12:26 pm - Paramedics arrive at MJ's house

1:14 pm - Paramedics' approximate arrival time at UCLA Medical Center with MJ

2:26 pm - MJ pronounced deceased at the UCLA Medical Center after a team of doctors, including cardiologists, tried for more than 1 hour to resuscitate him.


NOTE: Murray would not sign death certificate


Diazepam
http://www.rxlist.com/diazepam-injection-drug.htm

Lorazepam (Given to MJ twice: once at 2am, once at 5am)
http://www.rxlist.com/ativan-drug.htm

Midazolam (Given to MJ twice: once at 3am, once at 7:30am)
http://www.rxlist.com/midazolam-injection-drug.htm

Propofol
http://www.rxlist.com/diprivan-drug.htm


After reading the above info about what was given to MJ, does it seem like it was safe for Murray to give all of this stuff to him in the course of approximately 9 hours, outside of a hospital setting, and without the proper monitoring and resuscitation equipment?

How dare they say Murray didn't give MJ anything that should have killed him. How dare they even word it like that. A list of things went wrong, and it either went this way by accident, or went this way on purpose.

AllForMJ, great post. I didn't quote all of it, as it's very long, but thanks for putting all the info together like this. :flowers:

 

[elusive moonwalker]

ppl noted there was some equipment in another room which room was this and what equipment?

 

[ensleyave]

Ok. I do see where it says catheter was found on him when describing the hospital scene. So are we saying it was put on at the home and not the hospital. Imo I am thinking it was done at the house because of the bottle of urine already present. This goes to show what state MJ was in. I can't wait to here his defense. Murray sort of box himself in on the answers he already gave and even if he changes some of his answers it seems to box him in even more with the information WE HAVE AT HAND right now. I am sure it is mountains of evidence we don't know.

 

[daisy]

i dont think the metabolization continues once its in the urine. from what i understand it only shows in the urine. the metabolization is done inside the body, like the liver. i'm not a medically trained person however. do we have an expert on the board who can comment on this?

watch this diagram:

http://www.metrohealthanesthesia.com/edu/ivanes/propofol3.htm

OK. Anyway, once the propofol was present in the bootle it indicates the prior use of it, which was not reported by Murray.

 

[rainny]

He called Neverland before calling 911?! Is this a fact?

 

[ensleyave]

Wendy 2004
I know from having an epidural I could not move my legs but my bladder was so full I was in severe pain. The nurse had to use a catheter to empty my bladder. If I could walk and had use of my lower body functions I would have gotten up to go myself.

Do you think MIke was already not conscious, because if he was he could have told Murray to empty him?

 

[elusive moonwalker]

He called Neverland before calling 911?! Is this a fact?

theres no evidence of that at all. remember that being a tabloid story from when it happened

 

[Soundmind]

OK. Anyway, once the propofol was present in the bootle it indicates the prior use of it, which was not reported by Murray.

very true .

1:30 am Diazepam 10 mg

2:00 am Lorazepam 2 mg IV

3:00 am Midazolam 2mg IV

5:00 am Lorazepam 2mg IV

7:30 am Midazolam 2 mg

10:40 am Propofol 25 mg

I highly doubt he gave it at that time

 

[wendy2004]

ppl noted there was some equipment in another room which room was this and what equipment?

I believe it was a blood pressure cuff or something like that. It wasn't anything that would be considered "lifesaving" or that would fall into the category of equipment meeting the standard of care for administrating propofol at general surgery levels tho.

Ok. I do see where it says catheter was found on him when describing the hospital scene. So are we saying it was put on at the home and not the hospital. Imo I am thinking it was done at the house because of the bottle of urine already present. This goes to show what state MJ was in. I can't wait to here his defense. Murray sort of box himself in on the answers he already gave and even if he changes some of his answers it seems to box him in even more with the information WE HAVE AT HAND right now. I am sure it is mountains of evidence we don't know.

I believe it was at the house as well.

Agree with the bolded. Murray is in deep doo. But if the prosecution drops the ball, he will walk. They seriously need to get over what they THINK or wanted to believe about MJ and see the evidence with clear unbiased eyes.

Wendy 2004
I know from having an epidural I could not move my legs but my bladder was so full I was in severe pain. The nurse had to use a catheter to empty my bladder. If I could walk and had use of my lower body functions I would have gotten up to go myself.

Do you think MIke was already not conscious, because if he was he could have told Murray to empty him?

The reason I think MJ was not conscious is becuz there's propofol in the bottled urine. Once you're out, you're out. He'd be unable to ask...until he woke up. And we now know Michael didn't wake up. The only way he could ask is if he received a round of propofol earlier that morning and woke up, asked Murray to empty him, and then received a second batch of propofol from which he didn't wake up. However, according to Murray, he gave Michael one dose that morning. Michael could only metabolize the propofol AFTER it entered his body. And once propofol entered his body, we was unconscious.

That's why I initially asked if it was possible for Michael to produce enough propofol-benzo laced urine (urine bladder AND bottled urine) during the time Murray gave. If Michael died almost immediately after getting that ONE dose of propofol, it would be impossible. The urine had to have been produced MUCH earlier...either from that night or earlier that morning in order for both samples to have propofol in them.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

I believe it was a blood pressure cuff or something like that. It wasn't anything that would be considered "lifesaving" or that would fall into the category of equipment meeting the standard of care for administrating propofol at general surgery levels tho.

ok thanks. yeah the pulse oxyi thing. i was at work the other night and we were stood about waiting and talking to the medic we work with and starting messing around with one of them. measuring everyones levels. everyone was asking what it was. i thought to myself i know dam well what that is *Sigh* i just read that ppl said diff things.interms of some monitoring equipment was in the other room

 

[daisy]

very true .

I highly doubt he gave it at that time

Maybe he gave propofol before instead or sometime near
that´s why we have propofol in that bottled urine.

But would he then give Michael second dose of lorazepam after that
makes no sense. just thinking

 

[Soundmind]

I believe it was a blood pressure cuff or something like that. It wasn't anything that would be considered "lifesaving" or that would fall into the category of equipment meeting the standard of care for administrating propofol at general surgery levels tho.



I believe it was at the house as well.

Agree with the bolded. Murray is in deep doo. But if the prosecution drops the ball, he will walk. They seriously need to get over what they THINK or wanted to believe about MJ and see the evidence with clear unbiased eyes.




The reason I think MJ was not conscious is becuz there's propofol in the bottled urine. Once you're out, you're out. He'd be unable to ask...until he woke up. And we now know Michael didn't wake up. The only way he could ask is if he received a round of propofol earlier that morning and woke up, asked Murray to empty him, and then received a second batch of propofol from which he didn't wake up. However, according to Murray, he gave Michael one dose that morning. Michael could only metabolize the propofol AFTER it entered his body. And once propofol entered his body, we was unconscious.

That's why I initially asked if it was possible for Michael to produce enough propofol-benzo laced urine (urine bladder AND bottled urine) during the time Murray gave. If Michael died almost immediately, that would be impossible. The urine had to have been produced MUCH earlier...either from that night or earlier that morning in order for both samples to have propofol in them.[/QUOTE]

MJ died immediatley after a bolus injection , or died minutes after he was given propofol if it was give through an IV infusion , he died while he was under propofol , there is no doubt about it . and there is no doubt the amounts he was given were small relatively , it would not have been enough to sedate him for more than counted minutes .

as for the urine at the scene , I don't believe MJ would have been able to produce all that urine , the amounts 460 +550 means 24 hours , I can't explain it .

 

[Popescu]

as for the urine at the scene , I don't believe MJ would have been able to produce all that urine , the amounts 460 +550 means 24 hours , I can't explain it .

No, it could be only 12 hours or less, remember the dehydration during and following strenous exercise (rehearsal).
"The amount of urine produced depends on numerous factors including state of hydration, activities, environmental factors, size, and health. In adult humans the average production is about 1 - 2 L per day."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine

 

[Popescu]

I have always felt he was dead before the time Murray gave. Especially when I heard of the assistants going to the storage.

Yeap, me too. They arrived at the storage unit at 9.22 LA time.

 

[wendy2004]

MJ died immediatley after a bolus injection , or died minutes after he was given propofol if it was give through an IV infusion , he died while he was under propofol , there is no doubt about it . and there is no doubt the amounts he was given were small relatively , it would not have been enough to sedate him for more than counted minutes .

as for the urine at the scene , I don't believe MJ would have been able to produce all that urine , the amounts 460 +550 means 24 hours , I can't explain it .

So we have a genuine mystery here.

I'm about to ask a really elementary and probably stupid question here for those of you who have medical experience. Can you tell how old a urine sample is? Would it be determinable whether the urine in MJ's bladder and the urine in the bottle are part of the same batch and/or whether both came from the same day?

No, it could be only 12 hours or less, remember the dehydration during and following strenous exercise (rehearsal).
"The amount of urine produced depends on numerous factors including state of hydration, activities, environmental factors, size, and health. In adult humans the average production is about 1 - 2 L per day."
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine[/URL]

But if Murray hadn't given Michael propofol in over 24 hours (last given on the night of the 22nd), his urine should have been free of propofol by the morning of the 25th before Murray claims he gave the one dose then, right?

 

[Soundmind]

No, it could be only 12 hours or less, remember the dehydration during and following strenous exercise (rehearsal).
"The amount of urine produced depends on numerous factors including state of hydration, activities, environmental factors, size, and health. In adult humans the average production is about 1 - 2 L per day."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine

what do you mean by NO ? Murray was giving MJ a white fluid through the IV , there was a bag there and certainly it was there for a reason , that's might explain the HUGE amounts of urine he produced that day , but I can't say that for sure . If the propofol in the urine from the scene was given early that night , then as someone said before Murray was caught in another lie .

the question remains why did he even use lorazepam between them :smilerolleyes:

But if Murray hadn't given Michael propofol in over 24 hours (last given on the night of the 22nd), his urine should have been free of propofol by the morning of the 25th before Murray claims he gave the one dose then, right?

the only way Murray said the truth would be if MJ urinated in that bottle in the early morning of June 23.

 

[xthunderx2]

I was just reading on a websight and it says that urine starts to grow mold if kept more than 24 hours also that you can get a false positive response form the old urine.

 

[Popescu]

what do you mean by NO ? Murray was giving MJ a white fluid through the IV , there was a bag there and certainly it was there for a reason , that's might explain the HUGE amounts of urine he produced that day , but I can't say that for sure . If the propofol in the urine from the scene was given early that night , then as someone said before Murray was caught in another lie .

the question remains why did he even use lorazepam between them :smilerolleyes:

That's my point, I think it may be just another lie. There's no point in keeping urine from the prior night, or nights. I just said that the whole amount of urine may of been produced in that night, 24 to 25th. So the doctor has another problem.

I'm researching now the time it takes for urine to deteriorate, on marijuana.com it says only a few hours, then the the normal levels of protein and other substances start to deteriorate.

 

[Beachlover]

it was the morning of the 25th i think sometime around 9am L.A time

u know sometimes i wonder if the D.A is even gonna bother with all these changed timelines covering it up etc cause surely you would ahave charges related to it or is he just sticking to the negligence of not having the tight equipment and nothing else

Well, it is possible the last Propofol was given at 11:40, not 10:40. It is also probable the DA knows the exact times because there were others in the house that spoke to the police and these people have never given any interviews.

 

[Beachlover]

I was just reading on a websight and it says that urine starts to grow mold if kept more than 24 hours also that you can get a false positive response form the old urine.

False positive of Urinary Tract Infection. NOT tox screen.

 

[Soundmind]

by the way why lorazepam & midazolam were detected in his heart blood and not in his blood ? what's the difference ?