Michael - The Great Album Debate

To be honest, I don't think any such tests ever took place. I believe the extent of their investigation was a couple of phone calls to Thad Nauden and that listening session, which was anything but unanimous.

That's why I am extremely surprised the forensic analysts said it was definitely MJ. None of those analysts were named nor any report was shown. Yet I am still giving them credit that they did those tests. But something is terribly wrong as I myself work as a forensic in another field and I've never seen such a secret surrounding something that is supposed to be public such as informing the clients.
 
That's why I am extremely surprised the forensic analysts said it was definitely MJ. None of those analysts were named nor any report was shown. Yet I am still giving them credit that they did those tests. But something is terribly wrong as I myself work as a forensic in another field and I've never seen such a secret surrounding something that is supposed to be public such as informing the clients.

The tests never happened. I guarantee it.
 
We've got nothing to trust them on because they haven't provided anything in the way of evidence to prove it is Michael. No logical explanation for any of the discrepencies, nothing to compare the vocals too, nothing that can explain every vocal trademark of Jason Cupeta on all these songs.

and this is exactly what I was mentioning. It would be hard to get any support for your opinions when your stand is so divisive yet you expect those group to support you on an "official stand"

I never asked in my argument any believer to change their mind, but to bond together with the doubters and to pressure and demand proof from SONY/Estate that those tracks are indeed authentic. In the process the believers would have nothing to lose. On the contary, they'd prove to the doubters that they were right and the doubters would be relieved to see that on those tracks it is indeed MJ.

have you read my previous posts that we indeed asked for expert reports?

The tests never happened. I guarantee it.

Randy confirmed them and claimed the experts were "bought". So wanna change your guarantee?
 
I feel to understand the angryness, the real angryness and indignation 'believers' feel about Jason Malachi (I hate to say this and to mention his name, but I also believe it's him) singing the lead on a Michael Jackson album is because we know there never (not in my lifetime) has been any artist who sang this way. He was unique. Maybe others after him tried to do the same, but I've never heard any singer sing like Michael. Otherwise I'd already mentioned him here, lol. So...the easyness in which Michael's talents were completely shoved aside and replaced, that angries me. And I hate it that 'new' fans and new young fans who discovered Michael after his death get the wrong impression of the singer/artist Michael was.

It has to be corrected and made undone.
 
Well without slightest detail of the report it is hard to believe there was a test, but not impossible. The question is what was tested as there is a lot of copy-pastes?

If anything - they played a song or two for an "expert" and asked - does this sound like MJ? Said expert probably didn't even know of the existence of Cupeta. And that's the catch. If the songs sounded like Justin Timberlake, everyone would spot it straight away. But who, outside of die hard MJ fans, has ever heard of Jason Malachi? And look at all the people that still think Let Me Let Go is an MJ track.
 
and this is exactly what I was mentioning. It would be hard to get any support for your opinions when your stand is so divisive yet you expect those group to support you on an "official stand"



have you read my previous posts that we indeed asked for expert reports?



Randy confirmed them and claimed the experts were "bought". So wanna change your guarantee?

My stance isn't divisive. I'm just saying that not one single piece of supporting evidence has been put forward by those who think it's Michael. And I wouldn't trust Randy as far as I can throw him. He also said that Sony had a deal for 10 new albums, which is wrong. He clearly isn't fully informed.
 
have you read my previous posts that we indeed asked for expert reports?

Have you read mine? I didn't use the verb "ask" but "demand" and "pressure" SONY/Estate instead of them pressuring us.

No one asks to actually support us doubters for the sake of supporting us, but for the sake of MJ's legacy in order to show that we can't accept that easily songs without anything to back it as a clear evidence it is him. At the end of the day, you believers, what guarantee do you have it is MJ's work other than what the thin and short report says? Nothing. You can't deny the copy-pastes in the middle of the sentences on those tracks though and you don't seem bothered by them.

I can understand some pasted ad-libs, but can a single believer offer me a plausible theory why the word "breaking" is pasted between "you're" and "the news"? Aren't you curious enough to also discover what happened there?
 
I feel to understand the angryness, the real angryness and indignation 'believers' feel about Jason Malachi (I hate to say this and to mention his name, but I also believe it's him) singing the lead on a Michael Jackson album is because we know there never (not in my lifetime) has been any artist who sang this way. He was unique. Maybe others after him tried to do the same, but I've never heard any singer sing like Michael. Otherwise I'd already mentioned him here, lol. So...the easyness in which Michael's talents were completely shoved aside and replaced, that angries me. And I hate it that 'new' fans and new young fans who discovered Michael after his death get the wrong impression of the singer/artist Michael was.

It has to be corrected and made undone.

Majority of new fans haven't even heard all of the Cascio songs in their entirety other than the ones that were commercially released. And if they did, I'm pretty sure they'd be aware of the controversy, which surround the records.
 
If anything - they played a song or two for an "expert" and asked - does this sound like MJ? Said expert probably didn't even know of the existence of Cupeta. And that's the catch. If the songs sounded like Justin Timberlake, everyone would spot it straight away. But who, outside of die hard MJ fans, has ever heard of Jason Malachi? And look at all the people that still think Let Me Let Go is an MJ track.

That's a good point. When they played the cascio songs for these ''experts'' did they also play them any Jason Cupeta songs? I don't think so.
 
This thread is created purely for those who wish to discuss the authenticity and thier opinions of the Album "Michael"

The will be no talk of those who believe this is Michael and support this album.

Lets dissect analyse and make our feelings and concerns known - In a respectful manner of course.

If you do not agree with those wish to discuss in this manner then please do not come here to read and respond.

Edited Thread title and description disclaimer:

Members coming into this thread you do so at you own responsibility, if you do not like the tone or what is being said here then you are duly asked to steer clear of this thread, as of now we will not accept any responsibility should members complain about what is written or if debates get out of hand. again it is your own responsibility as to whether you come in here and what your participation might be.

Okay I'm a Cascio song believer and I posted something saying that I like Monster and they told me to post it here so can I discuss why I support the Cascio songs here or not ?
 
Okay I'm a Cascio song believer and I posted something saying that I like Monster and they told me to post it here so can I discuss why I support the Cascio songs here or not ?

Of course you can, that's why this thread has been created.
 
Believers should watch This Is It, then pause and listen to a Cascio song. Then go on with the movie, pause it again half way through and listen to another Cascio song. And so forth. Try to find fitting Cascio songs for where you are in the movie. This doesn't feel right at all. Especially the pronounciation discussed right now. It's a dead giveaway. It is a different person. If you don't want to listen to the timbre, at least - please - listen to the pronounciation.

Okay I'm a believer that it is MJ singing now what you are saying is weird cause This Is It was a live rehearsal unlike the Cascio songs which were recorded in 07 in a basement studio and then the vocals were cleared using Melodyne and should I add over produced
 
Okay I'm a believer that it is MJ singing now what you are saying is weird cause This Is It was a live rehearsal unlike the Cascio songs which were recorded in 07 in a basement studio and then the vocals were cleared using Melodyne and should I add over produced

Sure, we are open to any observational excuse why the vocals sound so different. So, now you take any MJ song, voice from a phone call with the worst possible conditions and melodyne it upside down and inside out and try to make it sound the same as on the Cascio tracks so that we can observe it and hear it. Then we'll also believe it's MJ.
 
@ADKI, have you ever heard this:

[youtube]rMxHkLMH-kk&feature=related[/youtube]
 
I still think theres a difference between Jason and the Cascio Singer "Weather its a unknown, or crap MJ vocals...or a heavy mix of both"
 
Have you read mine? I didn't use the verb "ask" but "demand" and "pressure" SONY/Estate instead of them pressuring us.

how are you going to "demand" and "pressure"? protest, not buying the album, accusing them of fraud, cursing people, stealing and leaking songs? all happened and made no difference.

and in a realistic approach if you followed the tribute concert event all we could do was to "ask to consider" the concert - and that had worldwide support in fan community. The only way to demand can be done through a lawsuit.

I can understand some pasted ad-libs, but can a single believer offer me a plausible theory why the word "breaking" is pasted between "you're" and "the news"? Aren't you curious enough to also discover what happened there?

michael is dead, they needed to complete the songs so they copy pasted. sorry but I can't really understand why the doubters find it plausible that they had a living, willing and able Jason but yet had to do that many copy-pastes? One minute Jason is good enough to fool a portion of MJ fans and music experts but in another minute he's crappy enough that he can't get through a song. In my mind any copy-paste shows that they actually didn't have an imposter and/or soundalike and had to work with what they have to finish the songs.

I worked with musicians, I have seen people do 22 takes to get the song perfect. I have never seen words copy pasted. To me that shows the singer is not alive to record any more vocals so that they needed to do cut and pastes from already existing takes and other songs to complete the songs
 
Reasons why I believe that Michael Jackson is singing on the Cascio songs

#1 The songs were recorded on a basement studio which at the time makes sense for the vibrato to be there since the microphone was in a shower.

#2 The year was 2007 we seen MJ try something new on Invincible so how do we know that he didn't want to try something new again ?

#3 The background vocals were mixed with James Porte's and that is said on the booklet.

#4 The songs were cleared using Melodyne which is a computer program that is used by many artists now to fix their vocals or change the pitch digitally.

#5 The songs were over produced just as Teddy Riley said.

#6 The demos do exist and they are a bit different so it does prove that the songs went through Melodyne.

#7 It's not 1982 people's voices do change through the years and maybe these songs were recorded but never really meant to go on an album.

#8 Why would a multi billion dollar company risk being known for publishing fake songs and even be sued for fraud and The Michael Jackson Estate too ? (And please don't say that Sony would do anything for $$$ cause remember MJ signed back with them in 08 and his problem was with Motolla not really Sony)

#9 Sony and The Michael Jackson Estate had 2 of the best musicologists in the world test the songs and friends of Michael Jackson that worked with him for over 20 years including Bruce Swedien that worked with MJ since his first solo album on Epic Records and they all confirmed that it was MJ singing.

#10 Think why would the Cascio family lie they known MJ for so many years and MJ treated them as a family and lived with them at times.


I'm not saying that you have to believe me or accept this I ask you just to think of that and the risks Sony, Epic Records, The Michael Jackson Estate, Those 2 musicologists, and The producers would take if it was fake
 
#8 Why would a multi billion dollar company risk being known for publishing fake songs and even be sued for fraud and The Michael Jackson Estate too ? (And please don't say that Sony would do anything for $$$ cause remember MJ signed back with them in 08 and his problem was with Motolla not really Sony)
Because when you're a "multi billion dollar company" you think you're untouchable, especially when there's money involved. And I'm sure a lot of it was passed around. It has nothing to do with the Tommy Motolla thing.
 
how are you going to "demand" and "pressure"? protest, not buying the album, accusing them of fraud, cursing people, stealing and leaking songs? all happened and made no difference.

and in a realistic approach if you followed the tribute concert event all we could do was to "ask to consider" the concert - and that had worldwide support in fan community. The only way to demand can be done through a lawsuit.



michael is dead, they needed to complete the songs so they copy pasted. sorry but I can't really understand why the doubters find it plausible that they had a living, willing and able Jason but yet had to do that many copy-pastes? One minute Jason is good enough to fool a portion of MJ fans and music experts but in another minute he's crappy enough that he can't get through a song. In my mind any copy-paste shows that they actually didn't have an imposter and/or soundalike and had to work with what they have to finish the songs.

I worked with musicians, I have seen people do 22 takes to get the song perfect. I have never seen words copy pasted. To me that shows the singer is not alive to record any more vocals so that they needed to do cut and pastes from already existing takes and other songs to complete the songs

And that explains all Jason's vocal characteristics that are present on the original untouched vocals how exactly?

By pasting such words, and adlibs in, it fools the listener into thinking they are hearing MJ all the way through. You need to hear those original tracks to understand exactly how these songs were constructed. Do you really think that the young, out of tune Italian American accent on Fall In Love is Michael? The one who pronounces his words just like Cupeta? Who breathes just like Cupeta? Who just happens to have Jason's exact vibrato, tone, husk and timbre? And all this on the raw, untouched, unprocessed vocals? Oh the joy of protools.
 
ADKIc3AmX - I will answer your points one by one.

1. Yet we have other vocals recorded at the same time in the same place that sound perfect - WBSS 2008. It has never been stated that Michael recorded the vocals in that shower. What Eddie actually said were the backing vocals (most probably referring to WBSS 08 vocals as they are credited as backing vocals without realising it - a little Freudian slip) were recorded there. In fact, on Oprah, a picture of a microphone stand is shown in the actual studio. WBSS 08 completely wipes out the "they sound different cos of the environment" excuse.

2. On Invincible, Michael still sounds like Michael Jackson. I doubt trying something new involves making himself sound like Jason Cupeta. For 12 songs. And just leaving out any of his trademarks in the process. For all those takes on 12 songs? Really?

3. So? How does that make a difference? Should still sound Michael and not Jason.

4. Melodyne doesn't cause someone to develop all Jason Cupeta's vocal characteristics. We have tried melodyne on many of Michael's songs and demos and it just doesn't have that affect.

5. Actually, it's surprising how little overproduction there is. What you hear is essentially what came out of the singers mouth. And you trust Teddy Riley? The same man who keeps telling people on twitter that Michael is alive and the whole trial is a sham? Hardly a reliable witness.

6. Yet all the questionable aspects of the vocals are in the demo versions, hence melodyne is clerly not to blame.

7. Michael's voice didn't change on other songs that were recorded around this time such as Hold My Hand, WBSS 2008, Best of Joy and the This Is it rehearsals. Why suddenly for 12 songs whose existence is not known about until almost a year after his death? And why does it change to the point of sounding just like a known impersonato?

8. Neither Sony or the Estate were involved in the making of these songs. Sony bought them from Eddie Cascio. By the time they realised they had been duped, the album was out. Too late to admit such a foolish mistake.

9. Plenty of other producers said it wasn't Michael. And who were these musicologists? What did they test? Were they aware of Cupeta? What was their margin of error? What were the specifics of their conclusions? We know so little, that frankly this argument is worthless at this stage.

10. Plenty of other people have stabbed Michael in the back and exploited him since his death, including members of his own family. Why should the Cascio's be any different? These tracks would have been sold for considerable amounts of money. Just how much was given to charity I wonder?
 
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ADKIc3AmX - I will answer your points one by one.

1. Yet we have other vocals recorded at the same time in the same place that sound perfect - WBSS 2008. It has never been stated that Michael recorded the vocals in that shower. What Eddie actually said were the backing vocals (most probably referring to WBSS 08 vocals as they are credited as backing vocals without realising it - a little Freudian slip) were recorded there. In fact, on Oprah, a picture of a microphone stand is shown in the actual studio. WBSS 08 completely wipes out the "they sound different cos of the environment" excuse.

2. On Invincible, Michael still sounds like Michael Jackson. I doubt trying something new involves making himself sound like Jason Cupeta. For 12 songs. And just leaving out any of his trademarks in the process. For all those takes on 12 songs? Really?

3. So? How does that make a difference? Should still sound Michael and not Jason.

4. Melodyne doesn't cause someone to develop all Jason Cupeta's vocal characteristics. We have tried melodyne on many of Michael's songs and demos and it just doesn't have that affect.

5. Actually, it's surprising how little overproduction there is. What you hear is essentially what came out of the singers mouth. And you trust Teddy Riley? The same man who keeps telling people on twitter that Michael is alive and the whole trial is a sham? Hardly a reliable witness.

6. Yet all the questionable aspects of the vocals are in the demo versions, hence melodyne is clerly not to blame.

7. Michael's voice didn't change on other songs that were recorded around this time such as Hold My Hand, WBSS 2008, Best of Joy and the This Is it rehearsals. Why suddenly for 12 songs whose existence is not known about until almost a year after his death? And why does it change to the point of sounding just like a known impersonato?

8. Neither Sony or the Estate were involved in the making of these songs. Sony bought them from Eddie Cascio. By the time they realised they had been duped, the album was out. Too late to admit such a foolish mistake.

9. Plenty of other producers said it wasn't Michael. And who were these musicologists? What did they test? Were they aware of Cupeta? What was their margin of error? What were the specifics of their conclusions? We know so little, that frankly this argument is worthless at this stage.

10. Plenty of other people have stabbed Michael in the back and exploited him since his death, including members of his own family. Why should the Cascio's be any different? These tracks would have been sold for considerable amounts of money. Just how much was given to charity I wonder?

#5 if funny cause he says Michael's spirit is alive and after all Teddy worked with MJ since 91 so do we listen to You or Him ?
And Teddy was recommended to MJ by Quincy Jones.

Some of you doubters find anything or make anything to think that it's not him but I guess that's your opinion and not the official thing (Not starting a war just it's true)
 
#5 if funny cause he says Michael's spirit is alive and after all Teddy worked with MJ since 91 so do we listen to You or Him ?
And Teddy was recommended to MJ by Quincy Jones.

Some of you doubters find anything or make anything to think that it's not him but I guess that's your opinion and not the official thing (Not starting a war just it's true)

You are aware that Teddy claimed that Michael is physically alive and the whole trial is fake right? And we hardly have to find anything when the reality is right there in the songs.
 
how are you going to "demand" and "pressure"? protest, not buying the album, accusing them of fraud, cursing people, stealing and leaking songs? all happened and made no difference.

I never said that any of the above mentioned was a good method. All that you mentioned is the secondary thing.

and in a realistic approach if you followed the tribute concert event all we could do was to "ask to consider" the concert - and that had worldwide support in fan community. The only way to demand can be done through a lawsuit.

Again lawsuit! Sure, what else? Umm, in realistic world you don't always win a lawsuit because you are right or wrong, you win it if you have both proof and good lawyers. We have neither of those, but as I said the absence of it doesn't make it opposite truth of a fact. So the lawsuit can be left aside.

Other organized actions exist such as:

-act united (it's crucial), all MJ fan websites should have continued with the petitions due to the controversy
-write publicly to the press relentlessly about our controversy
-ask the press to interview all the people supposedly involved with a list of questions that we would make all together
-write public and open letters to SONY/Estate to clear things up till they react
-in the case of this web site not bow under SONY's pressure and make this thread visible to the general public
-forensic analysts' addresses are public, we could send them the samples of our comparisons around the world and simply ask them if our approach is conclusive, at least some of them would probably respond
-build and multiply the number of websites regarding the controversy till they respond in accordance with our demands to clear things up
-ask SONY/Estate to render their analyses public, at least partially or complete, they should have nothing to hide regarding this issue
-and all other ideas from the fans would have been welcomed till we know what and how it all happened


michael is dead, they needed to complete the songs so they copy pasted. sorry but I can't really understand why the doubters find it plausible that they had a living, willing and able Jason but yet had to do that many copy-pastes? One minute Jason is good enough to fool a portion of MJ fans and music experts but in another minute he's crappy enough that he can't get through a song. In my mind any copy-paste shows that they actually didn't have an imposter and/or soundalike and had to work with what they have to finish the songs.

Are you saying that Michael couldn't sing a simple line "you're breaking the news", he would sing only portions of lines? Or are you saying that MJ needed that many takes for a single line despite the fact that he could record entire portions of songs in one take? Are you saying that MJ had time to half-record 12 songs with half sentences and didn't have time to finish a single song or at least his sentences among those 12, so they needed to copy-paste on each of the 12 songs yet they erased all the previous takes? And finally, what I find strange is that the copy pasted material doesn't sound the same as the recorded one, the voice is blatantly different, you can directly spot the difference in the voice timbre.

I worked with musicians, I have seen people do 22 takes to get the song perfect. I have never seen words copy pasted. To me that shows the singer is not alive to record any more vocals so that they needed to do cut and pastes from already existing takes and other songs to complete the songs

I imagine MJ after decades of experience with Seth Riggs coaching his voice needed 22 takes to record "you're breaking the news" line. Whatever, but your musicians and MJ don't seem to be comparable.
 
Reasons why I believe that Michael Jackson is singing on the Cascio songs

#1 The songs were recorded on a basement studio which at the time makes sense for the vibrato to be there since the microphone was in a shower.

Could you clear some things up?

A) What has the vibrato got to do with the shower environment?
B) Does it mean that Jason Malachi who has exactly the same vibrato recorded all his songs in the shower environment too?

#2 The year was 2007 we seen MJ try something new on Invincible so how do we know that he didn't want to try something new again ?

Are you saying that MJ tried not to sound as usual on 12 songs in order to do a new innovative thing, but never planned to play a single note of it for This Is It show and never talked to anybody about those songs, yet we've seen him in the studio with Will I am?

#3 The background vocals were mixed with James Porte's and that is said on the booklet.

So when you see something written for you it is enough to believe it is a fact?

#4 The songs were cleared using Melodyne which is a computer program that is used by many artists now to fix their vocals or change the pitch digitally.

Ok, have you heard the version before it was melodyned? I haven't.

#5 The songs were over produced just as Teddy Riley said.

Ok, have you heard the songs before they were overproduced? I haven't.

#6 The demos do exist and they are a bit different so it does prove that the songs went through Melodyne.

The so called demos aren't different, they're simply richer in copy pastes from previous songs such as "what about us" that was removed from KYHU.

#7 It's not 1982 people's voices do change through the years and maybe these songs were recorded but never really meant to go on an album.

The voice does change, but after decades of career it bonifies, it doesn't need melodyne. Furthermore, if it changes it doesn't mutate into unrecognizable voice in 2007 and then back to usual voice in 2009.

#8 Why would a multi billion dollar company risk being known for publishing fake songs and even be sued for fraud and The Michael Jackson Estate too ? (And please don't say that Sony would do anything for $$$ cause remember MJ signed back with them in 08 and his problem was with Motolla not really Sony)

First, with all erased traces of proof they risk nothing at all. Second, SONY does not care about MJ as an artist, they care about themselves and uses MJ's name as a label to advertize their own company rather than they would advertize MJ. Try it for yourself. Invest some money in a product and stick a renown name to your product, it'll sell.

#9 Sony and The Michael Jackson Estate had 2 of the best musicologists in the world test the songs and friends of Michael Jackson that worked with him for over 20 years including Bruce Swedien that worked with MJ since his first solo album on Epic Records and they all confirmed that it was MJ singing.

I know who's the best football club in the last world cup. I know who's one of the best scientists in the 20th century. I know who's been voted the best musician, singer, band, author, prize nobelist, doctor of medicine, etc in different years and domains.

Now you tell me first who determines who is the best forensic musicologist? And second, if they are the best we should automatically know their names. You know, forensic people's contact address is public, so tell me who they are?

Regarding Bruce, he's not a musicologist. He even couldn't remember who wrote the song Childhood whereas any MJ fan knows it. That shows how well the fans know MJ vs Bruce.

#10 Think why would the Cascio family lie they known MJ for so many years and MJ treated them as a family and lived with them at times.

I asked that same question back in 1993 and 2003 when two families whom he considered as his own stabbed him in the back and eventually caused MJ to die so soon. He was tremendously affected. The Cascios just didn't take advantage of MJ when he was alive, they're taking advantage of him now that he's dead. Isn't Frank Cascio writing a book?
If each MJ's friend wrote a book about MJ, we'd have a whole library of books on MJ.


I'm not saying that you have to believe me or accept this I ask you just to think of that and the risks Sony, Epic Records, The Michael Jackson Estate, Those 2 musicologists, and The producers would take if it was fake

They did not take any risk actually, they're untouchable and covered. Plus, they have people who believe them and who are backing them. Among those people you have MJ fans.
 
Reasons why I believe that Michael Jackson is singing on the Cascio songs

#1 The songs were recorded on a basement studio which at the time makes sense for the vibrato to be there since the microphone was in a shower.

#2 The year was 2007 we seen MJ try something new on Invincible so how do we know that he didn't want to try something new again ?

#3 The background vocals were mixed with James Porte's and that is said on the booklet.

#4 The songs were cleared using Melodyne which is a computer program that is used by many artists now to fix their vocals or change the pitch digitally.

#5 The songs were over produced just as Teddy Riley said.

#6 The demos do exist and they are a bit different so it does prove that the songs went through Melodyne.

#7 It's not 1982 people's voices do change through the years and maybe these songs were recorded but never really meant to go on an album.
But that doesn't explain the emotionless and unconvincing way of singing. When you watch the YT of Michael and Barry Gibb in the studio, you see Michael bolding his fists and you see his whole bodylanguage. And when he sings "Only God knows"... Each word is placed in the perfect spot. There are lots of ways he could have sung them. But the tempo of that sentence and the tempo of each word separately makes the difference, because Michael felt the song. I don't think that changed over the years.

Just one example, but there are so many.

Do you know what I mean?
 
ADKIc3mAnX, how long have you been a fan? I am just wondering, you don't have to answer if you don't want to.
 
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