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StellaJackson
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Pentum's sig didn't have any unreleased tracks in it. Strange.
Grent
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I think I saw a link to a Soldier Boy or Burn 2 Night comparison though.
Maybe by mistake ? I was quite surprised. Especially along to the "only released songs" comment.
Or was it the sig? Or was it there shortly and then edited out?
I'm quite sure I saw it. Not that I have anything against it, just thought you'd like to know.
Keep your head up, buddy ! In the sky !
And then better go and look for two jobs, since today we need 3 (!) to find a finer place to stay.
Maybe by mistake ? I was quite surprised. Especially along to the "only released songs" comment.
Or was it the sig? Or was it there shortly and then edited out?
I'm quite sure I saw it. Not that I have anything against it, just thought you'd like to know.
Pentum said:
Keep your head up, buddy ! In the sky !
And then better go and look for two jobs, since today we need 3 (!) to find a finer place to stay.
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define swift action.
like thinking that we know the "truth" and everyone else is obviously "wrong"?
like ignoring the fact that not everyone is feeling / thinking the same way and forcing a group's opinion on to everyone?
like making criminal accusations and being sued?
fantasy land of "I know it all and they should do whatever I say just because I said so" is fine and dandy but perhaps sometimes we should step into that little thing called "reality".
The day Sony/ Estate streamed Breaking News they had already made their evaluation and determination in regards to this issue. No "swift action" would have changed it.
The HA! comes from Unbreakable 'And when you bury me underneath all your pain, Im standing laughing HA! while surfacing'
StellaJackson
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Swift action? Well here's how I see it. Firstly, these songs should never have made it on to an MJ album in the first place. Now I appreciate that the Estate and allegedly Sony investigated these tracks prior to November 8th. However, their investigations were either flawed or simply not thorough enough. The only investigation they did with regards to Jason Cupeta was to phone his manager, who obviously, if he was aware of Jason's involvement, was not going to admit it. As far as the so called tests by the musicologists goes, we have still haven't seen any results, we don't know what they tested or what they tested them against. What was the margin of error etc? So as far as I'm concerned, their "evaluation and determination" was worthless. It would be incredibly foolish to take the statement of Howard Weitzemann at face value, based of it's inaccuracies and lack of detail.
Secondly, despite all the debate, discussion, arguing that has gone on, there is still one thing that doesn't change. One undeniable fact that we can all agree on. These songs sound unlike any other MJ recording. Now if there were some hard evidence to explain away the discrepancies, or if it was just one or two songs then it may be a little easier to accept. However, what we have are 12 songs, whose very existence was not known about until almost a year after Michael died. The "MJ Songbook" is a worthless piece of the equation because we don't know what it contains. No mention of any specific titles was revealed until May 2010. Yes, in a world where these people play by the rules, that songbook registration would contain what we hear on these songs, but these clearly aren't people who are playing by the rules. Now let's not forget, it isn't just that these songs sound "different" to Michael, they also sound identical to a known impersonator. This includes said impersonators dreadfully shaky vibrato, snorts when going from one word to another, regional accent, pronounciation etc. That's a little too many similarities for my liking. And as we now know from the material that leaked several weeks ago, "processing" is not a justifiable excuse anymore, as those aspects were present on the vocals from the beginning. We also know, as first revealed by Birchey, and later verified by others including myself, that these songs are made up of multiple takes. We are supposed to believe that Michael recorded all these takes for 12 songs, yet failed to do any of his trademark vocal tics, breaths, finger snaps, claps or footstamps anywhere on any take? Of course, people will say that the vocals must have got screwed up at the Cascio studio, but that fails to account for two things: the vocals on WBSS 2008 were recorded in the same place, at the same time yet sound fine and there is no processing technique or flaw in any type of recording that can make someone sound 100% identical to Jason Cupeta.
Thirdly, taking all this into account, I am dissappointed at the constant "sweeping under the rug" of this issue. We have three, verifiably fraudulent tracks on an official MJ album. A total of 39 fan clubs and several thousand fans petitioned to have those songs removed. I applaud them for that but if the fans had stuck together, and all got behind this, we could have made a bigger noise and maybe things would have been different. The fact remains that genuine MJ tracks that Michael poured his heart and soul into, were rejected in favour of fraudulent material that was made purely to inflate the ego, career and bank balance of 4 individuals who, up until Michael's death, claimed to be his friends/fans/supporters.
As far as making criminal accusations go and being sued? Well I don't see them suing anyone for alleging these songs are fake. If anything, they have simply gone to ground and done absolutely nothing to refute the allegations against them. they've provided not one single shred of proof that Michael ever went anywhere near these songs.
It absolutely disgusts me that someone can upload a song like Slave To The Rhythm or Escape to youtube and nobody bats an eye lid, yet when someone uploads ten seconds of a Cascio track, people act like they've just murdered the pope. I've seen the emails from Sony to fans on twitter, including those who are only talking about the tracks, and it's pure corporate bullying. They know they messed up, for the same reasons that Joe Vogel now knows the songs are fake, yet rather than try and address it, they treat their consumers like dirt.
I will not be at all surprised if more of these songs appear on another album. They clearly hadn't learnt their lesson when it came to Cirque, and despite their statements that BN and Monster had been removed, one only needs to look at the Cirque videos on youtube to hear Jason's voice accompanying the show. This issue isn't going to go away and the more they ignore us, the worse they are making it, as they may well learn come the fan fest.
@StellaJackson
I still cannot see any "swift action" in that long post other than "we should have protested". Unlike other fan clubs, to us majority agreeing on a subject is important before taking a side. The reaction was divided - and still is.
and with "they ignore us" you basically say what I'm saying , nothing would have made any difference. As a business academic , I can assure you that the day they streamed that song they had made their investigation (regardless of u agree with it or not) and knew that it would have stood in a court of law. That's part 1 of the reason that they don't make changes (such as releasing those songs and keeping monster rap), part 2 is although your long post everything is nothing more than an alternative opinion of a group of people.
and that's what I call reality.
I still cannot see any "swift action" in that long post other than "we should have protested". Unlike other fan clubs, to us majority agreeing on a subject is important before taking a side. The reaction was divided - and still is.
and with "they ignore us" you basically say what I'm saying , nothing would have made any difference. As a business academic , I can assure you that the day they streamed that song they had made their investigation (regardless of u agree with it or not) and knew that it would have stood in a court of law. That's part 1 of the reason that they don't make changes (such as releasing those songs and keeping monster rap), part 2 is although your long post everything is nothing more than an alternative opinion of a group of people.
and that's what I call reality.
StellaJackson
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It is not an alternative opinion. It is absolutely a fact, based on the songs themselves for starters, that Michael Jackson is not the lead vocalist on those songs, and Jason Cuepta is. I don't know how anyone could possibly think that a song like Fall In Love is Michael Jackson. Have you ever, ever heard Michael sound like that? It doesn't matter what is said or not said in a court of law. It isn't Michael on those songs. Not an opinion, a fact based on the evidence, including the twenty odd tracks and demos that have now surfaced.
MusicMan26
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I said the same thing a while back and a few people basically told me I couldn't hear right (even though I'm a musician and have my computer hooked up to my music equipment).
StellaJackson
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If you want to truly understand how BN is constructed, listen to the original demo and then the acapella, although I'm sure you have already!
MusicMan26
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It is because of these actions that I believe Sony very much had something to do with this whole thing.
you keep telling that to yourself.. based on anything not happening I'll continue to be realistic and call it an opinion. If it was "based on evidence" we wouldn't be having this debate for almost a year now. and that's a fact.
StellaJackson
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and if you feel like this why were you accusing us of not taking "swift action"? Like I have been saying there was "nothing" to be done to change this issue.
If anyone had any "evidence" (that would have hold in court) they could have started a trial for a mere thousand dollars. No one had that "evidence", it's as simple as that. for your information : milli vanilli was sued by a housewife in ohio. so it could have been done if there was "evidence".
so I'll repeat it once again. "Swift action" was not an option and it wouldn't have changed anything. Us still discussing this issue a year later is a clear demonstration of this.
StellaJackson
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The swift action I was talking about has nothing to do with "a court of law" . And where is the evidence that proves it's Michael? The fact that the vocalist sounds identical to Jason Cupeta would perhaps suggest, it is in fact Jason Cupeta. Still no one who supports these songs has provided any of Michael's vocals to compare them to. Yet the fact that we have countless matching comparisons to JC far outweighs the non existent evidence of it being Michael. Us doubters still asking for such proof a year later is a clear indication of what a travesty these songs are.
Aniram
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Very true.. That's what made me realize Jason sang the songs. When no one could make comparisons and prove it's Michael, that did it for me. And when I could be given comparisons of Best Of Joy and Hollywood Tonight and Hold My Hand that all proved, without a doubt, Michael is the lead on those songs.
What it showed me is how easy it is to make comparisons between a vocalist and prove that it's them. They are bound to make some sort of noise, note, tic or any sort of characteristic that is similar to something they've done before. It is inevitable. That is why the comparisons work. That is why my mind was completely blown when I heard the Best Of Joy comparison and the TPI comparisons.
What it showed me is how easy it is to make comparisons between a vocalist and prove that it's them. They are bound to make some sort of noise, note, tic or any sort of characteristic that is similar to something they've done before. It is inevitable. That is why the comparisons work. That is why my mind was completely blown when I heard the Best Of Joy comparison and the TPI comparisons.
StellaJackson
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Have you heard all the Cascio demos Aniram? It shocks me that people can think Water or Fall In Love are MJ. It's like listening to bad karaoke.
And it's true what you're saying about vocal tics. We now know that the vibrato, snorts and pronounciation is exactly what came out the singers mouth. When did Michael ever do that? I guess it's hard for some people to accept.
And it's true what you're saying about vocal tics. We now know that the vibrato, snorts and pronounciation is exactly what came out the singers mouth. When did Michael ever do that? I guess it's hard for some people to accept.
Aniram
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Did the full versions come out or are you talking about the minute-or-so previews of the songs that were up a couple months ago? I heard those but they were so disgusting I couldn't even finish them all and they didn't keep my attention. I've heard enough... It's Jason. There's never been a Michael Jackson song, even the 7-second clip of Can't Get Your Weight Off Of Me(I think is the title), or I Am The Loser(only about 18 seconds?), or Place With No Name(about 30 seconds?)... I am completely hypnotized by Michael and I am filled with happiness and tears of joy.
It is the complete opposite with the Cascio tracks, however I do enjoy a few of them because they make me think of Michael, however they upset me so I don't listen to them as much as I would if they were actually Michael or if they'd been released with honesty.
It is the complete opposite with the Cascio tracks, however I do enjoy a few of them because they make me think of Michael, however they upset me so I don't listen to them as much as I would if they were actually Michael or if they'd been released with honesty.
BUMPER SNIPPET
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Ivy, please stop with the "court of law" argument. Have you worked in the court of law enough to see the reality of it? It is not the truth that reigns there, but the best lawyer defending the case by twisting the words and facts with ultimate objective to convince the jury and/or the judge that their client is right no matter how wrong the case could be. The lack of evidence of one fact does not equal to the absolute truth of the opposite fact. In other words, it's not because you can't prove something that the reality is the opposite of it.
Recently, Troy Davis was executed despite serious doubts of his guilt. So the court of law might have executed an innocent man only because this latter couldn't prove his innocence. I really don't understand why you bring that "court of law" argument into the debate relentlessly. You are missing the point with that argument.
Firstly, the court's ruling wouldn't change the fan's ears. Secondly, it is obvious that the responsible woul have made sure to cover their back before releasing those songs in the eyes of the court: erase any potential tangible evidence.
You know, we are not in a movie. In the real world a murderer can erase all his/her traces and have a perfect alibi that no one ever would be able to find out the truth behind.
In real world people daily steal, rob, mug, blackmail, kidnap, and what not and the responsibles are never neither caught, nor tried, nor proven guilty because of lack of evidence in court. On international level some countries constantly violate U.N. resolutions despite the striking evidence, yet are never punished by the international community thanks to some powerful countries' veto.
Explain the court of law and justice in the case of the current financial crisis - who was jailed in "your" court of law for speculating with our money in huge amounts and causing the collapse of the global crisis leaving people jobless and broke? No one. So please stop with the court of law argument, because the court of law is far, far, far away from being perfect or a reference when it comes to "lack of evidence" despite what you see, hear, smell, taste, feel or live.
Welcome to the real world.
It is not the same case, but still, when Michael had issues with SONY machinery back in the Invincible era, his moves were desperate and useless against SONY, because SONY knew how to remain untouchable in "your" court of law. The same happened to George Michael, Mariah Carey, Prince, ... they all got in trouble with the companies they were doing business with and they all were helpless.
[youtube]o1tj2zJ2Wvg&ob=av3n[/youtube]
p.s. Michael is so right when he says:
[...]
You Got School Teachers
Who Don't Wanna Teach
You Got Grown People
Who Can't Write Or Read
You Got Strange Diseases
Ah But There's No Cure
You Got Many Doctors
That Aren't So Sure
[...]
We've Got More Problems
Than We'll Ever Need
You Got Gang Violence
And Bloodshed On The Street
You Got Homeless People
With No Food To Eat
With No Clothes On Their Back
And No Shoes For Their Feet
[...]
We've Got Drug Addiction
In The Minds Of The Weak
We've Got So Much Corruption
Police Brutality
We've Got Streetwalkers
Walkin' Into Darkness
Tell Me
What Are We Doin'
[...]
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If you read it carefully I only mentioned "court of law" to the comment of "we have evidence and that's a fact" comment. It is not the case. 99% of my post had nothing to do with the court of law. It was all about the "swift action" comment. Please pay attention.
and furthermore your post is highly irrelevant. it was not a point of who might have won or if the truth might have prevailed or not.It's not about the system. It's the point that no one did anything. For example look to the very recent events. Hayvenhurst being sold news, Estate confirming that, Estate refusing Jermaine saying Katherine doesn't want that, Katherine saying she doesn't want it sold. Estate pulling the proposed sale back.
And that's the reality of the probate. It's not about money, it's not about evidence, it's not about fraud. Katherine as a beneficiary could have complained about the album, she didn't. And that's my point - not who might win or if the system is fair or not. It's a fact that no one even really complained. It's the fact that no one ever put their money where their mouth is. and that's what I was mentioning.
And stella knows this and still asking for "swift action". That's a such a double standard. At one post saying fans couldn't have done anything , family didn't do anything and then in another post blaming this website for not taking "swift action" is absurd.
and still the "swift action" is still undefined. It's not court of law, okay then what is it? Saying Sony / Estate there's a controversy about the songs and some people aren't happy with it - already done that's how we got the Estate statement. Asking for more information such as the expert reports - already done as well they are not willing to share that info. Telling these songs are still problematic and not be a part of Cirque - already done as well.
a group of fan sites lobbied against the album , we have been a part of an effort against the Michael forever tribute concert. In both instances events / album happened despite the unhappiness and protests. There's nothing that says that protests are going to be successful.
So again I'm curious about the "swift action" being talked about...
It's easy to sit across a computer and dictate what should be done and portray people as bad people because they don't fit into your behavior requests.
and furthermore your post is highly irrelevant. it was not a point of who might have won or if the truth might have prevailed or not.It's not about the system. It's the point that no one did anything. For example look to the very recent events. Hayvenhurst being sold news, Estate confirming that, Estate refusing Jermaine saying Katherine doesn't want that, Katherine saying she doesn't want it sold. Estate pulling the proposed sale back.
And that's the reality of the probate. It's not about money, it's not about evidence, it's not about fraud. Katherine as a beneficiary could have complained about the album, she didn't. And that's my point - not who might win or if the system is fair or not. It's a fact that no one even really complained. It's the fact that no one ever put their money where their mouth is. and that's what I was mentioning.
And stella knows this and still asking for "swift action". That's a such a double standard. At one post saying fans couldn't have done anything , family didn't do anything and then in another post blaming this website for not taking "swift action" is absurd.
and still the "swift action" is still undefined. It's not court of law, okay then what is it? Saying Sony / Estate there's a controversy about the songs and some people aren't happy with it - already done that's how we got the Estate statement. Asking for more information such as the expert reports - already done as well they are not willing to share that info. Telling these songs are still problematic and not be a part of Cirque - already done as well.
a group of fan sites lobbied against the album , we have been a part of an effort against the Michael forever tribute concert. In both instances events / album happened despite the unhappiness and protests. There's nothing that says that protests are going to be successful.
So again I'm curious about the "swift action" being talked about...
It's easy to sit across a computer and dictate what should be done and portray people as bad people because they don't fit into your behavior requests.
BUMPER SNIPPET
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You seem not to understand that when some institutions or companies are hiding behind the law, it makes them unreachable. Hence, swift action is not necessarily immediately "go to court". What people do when they feel helpless? They don't go to court, they protest.
Michael protested back in time against SONY, didn't he?
People in the streets of New York protest in front of Wall Street, don't they?
When people feel disadvantaged by the law and by the court in advance, they act otherwise than going to court. But every time when someone mentions the evidence you mention the court.
It is a fact that we can't prove those songs to be fake in court with the comparisons we have at disposal, but it doesn't make it a fact that those tracks are not fake in the light of those comparisons outside the court. The only reason why it can't be proven in court is because of lack of evidence, but to us, the fans, we have enough evidence. How clever. And the executor of will, the one that you seem to find the logical one, allowed all this.
They even don't see that fans are furious for what they did and that the fans don't care about court or whatever. They care about listening to MJ. They should at least have the decency to release MJ's songs where we can recognize him and where there's no the slightest shadow of doubt it's him. Now that Mike's dead, it's a bit too easy to release garbage, which the "bright" Branca allowed.
It is not a request of two-three people, it is a request of many fans not to cast doubt when it comes to MJ's legacy, that's the only request.
@bumper
probate is a lot different than the courts you keep mentioning. I will again clarify it probate isn't about having evidence or being able to prove it. Probate gives Katherine the chance to voice her concerns simply based on the fact that she's a beneficiary. they didn't even do that and it's as simple as that.
and I already mentioned the protests. they didn't work in multiple instance. and we voiced any and all unhappiness to the parties involved. that's action in my belief..
that being said I simply do not like the innuendo of trying to put the blame (partially) on this community either..
I know that even as a "supporter" I tried to reason to get more information (such as the expert reports) so I do not appreciate being labelled as the party to blame in this instance.
and seriously some behavior and/or message really wanna make me ignore such people and behavior for good. Assuming that sony/ estate experiencing this in multiple folds it's not surprising to me that they turned very much a blind eye to such complaints.
probate is a lot different than the courts you keep mentioning. I will again clarify it probate isn't about having evidence or being able to prove it. Probate gives Katherine the chance to voice her concerns simply based on the fact that she's a beneficiary. they didn't even do that and it's as simple as that.
and I already mentioned the protests. they didn't work in multiple instance. and we voiced any and all unhappiness to the parties involved. that's action in my belief..
that being said I simply do not like the innuendo of trying to put the blame (partially) on this community either..
I know that even as a "supporter" I tried to reason to get more information (such as the expert reports) so I do not appreciate being labelled as the party to blame in this instance.
and seriously some behavior and/or message really wanna make me ignore such people and behavior for good. Assuming that sony/ estate experiencing this in multiple folds it's not surprising to me that they turned very much a blind eye to such complaints.
BUMPER SNIPPET
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Lol @ me keeping on talking about court.
I don't see any innuendo here, I see criticism of all of us for not doing any action. I don't see it as if one particular web site or person has been targeted. I see it as a negative criticism that we fans are unable to deal with such situations and that despite the fact that we feel helpless, there is no solidarity nor strong bond whatsoever. Hence lack of swift or any other action.
p.s. Who was talking about Katherine and what she could or could not do? Talking about being irrelevant...
Aniram
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I think we were too divided in the beginning, and still are...
I know that when I first heard Breaking News I felt strange, I felt like it sounded like Let Me Let Go, I didn't think it was normal Michael... but I believed the Estate, I wanted to believe it was Michael. Keep Your Head Up assured me it was Michael.
So you can see in my example that I couldn't have taken part in any swift action... I didn't know it was Malachi at first. And a lot of people didn't realize it until much later also...
So I think they did a really good job at pulling this off. They probably had to think hard about it beforehand... But I'm glad we know the truth at least.
I know that when I first heard Breaking News I felt strange, I felt like it sounded like Let Me Let Go, I didn't think it was normal Michael... but I believed the Estate, I wanted to believe it was Michael. Keep Your Head Up assured me it was Michael.
So you can see in my example that I couldn't have taken part in any swift action... I didn't know it was Malachi at first. And a lot of people didn't realize it until much later also...
So I think they did a really good job at pulling this off. They probably had to think hard about it beforehand... But I'm glad we know the truth at least.
you talked about all those evidence, jurors, truth not prevailing and so on and so on. the only reason that I mentioned Katherine is such things do not apply to probate court. they had something at their disposal that was solely based on the "beneficiary" of the estate not wanting a certain thing to happen, they didn't even use that.
With that reality I find the argument of it's hard to win against corporations with evidence as an excuse. they had an alternative that didn't require all of that and they still didn't use it.
If we are talking about "actions", Jackson's non action also has be discussed as well.
true and that's what I pointed out as well in regards to the protests theory.
the fact is - despite of any evidence you think you have - community have been and still is torn about this subject. there's no common agreed upon stand. I told this before as well we did the survey and got over 800 completed results.
cascio songs was often mentioned. we had seen that there was a group that was against the songs and wasn't happy with the limited one thread (this thread) approach and complained why MJJC didn't officially denounce the songs.
yet there was another group that complained about the still existence of this thread and how some people take the cascio issue to other parts and other threads (such as frank's book and the most recent example of cirque show)
simply put you have different opinions that has to be respected - but unfortunately they aren't.
Well, the thing is, I think the mass majority of opinion is that these songs shouldn't have been released in the first place, regardless of anyone's beliefs in the authenticity of the vocals. Putting that aside, I think we can pretty much all agree that these songs caused more controversy that was necessary and the vocals, even if they were Michael, do NOT represent his legacy to the degree of which it deserves. They shouldn't have been released the minute ANYONE was doubtful of the authenticity or the fact that the songs had to be tested in the first place...Just for those reasons alone, the community could have taken action if we all banded together....Just like with any other protest we've made (Cirque, tribute, Aaron Carter issue, etc...)
I guess people still want Cascio tracks to be released in the future and don't see the issue at hand...I think that's sad ...
I guess people still want Cascio tracks to be released in the future and don't see the issue at hand...I think that's sad ...