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Michael - The Great Album Debate

Dorian said:
Maybe Fall In Love couldn't be fixed?
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I'm very sorry, but that means you have no idea what you're talking about. No offense.
You shouldn't talk about melodyne and 'processing', basically repeating what you hear, without any insight.
However, it's better to remain neutral then. So you're right.
 
Billyjeanplxiv said:
i believe theres moe than enough goat in the fall in love
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You got Fall in Love? Can you send me a link or something? Heard it before, but this is the only song I can't recall..:thinking:, so would really want to listen to it again.

ETA: Everytime I read 'Fall in Love', Tom Jones' song plays in my head now..:unsure:
 
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Grent said:
I'm very sorry, but that means you have no idea what you're talking about. No offense.
You shouldn't talk about melodyne and 'processing', basically repeating what you hear, without any insight.
However, it's better to remain neutral then. So you're right.
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Believe me, I know what I'm talking about.There are some frequences that even they are fixed they sound like sh*t.It's like autotune for example.The high notes sound so robotic...
 
Have these songs leaked in full yet? (Fall In Love, Black Widow etc) or are we just going off of the 1minute or so leaked snippets?
 
I have:

Breaking News [Album]
Breaking News [40 sec Early Version w/ DJ tags]
Keep your head up [Album]
Monster [Album]
Monster [solo version]
Monster [35 sec Early version w/ DJ tags]
Soilder Boy [no tags]
Burn Tonight [used to have it with no tags, now i have tags]
Stay(Carry on)
All I Need
Water [1 min snippet, no tags]
Black Widow [1 min, no tags]
Ready 2 win [! mins, no tags]
All right [1 min, no tags]
Fall in Love [1 min, no tags]

I put them all in my Michaels Demo album. :) Michael or not, i listen to them. If more Cascio tracks are on future albums. i will be upset, but ill buy the album for the real MJ. But i will frown upon Sony.
 
would u mind PMing me these lol

Ready 2 win [! mins, no tags]
All right [1 min, no tags]
Fall in Love [1 min, no tags]
 
Dorian said:
Well basically now you are telling me that Korgnex might be wrong.I can tell you that also the fans who told you that they were "rough demos" could be wrong also.

Let's take an in depth look.The so called Monster demo had a slower tempo, but it still had the copy pasted adlibs.This could mean two things.

1.The producers put they're touches on the songs.No, I'm not referring only to Teddy Riley.Most people said "THERE ARE COPY PASTED WORDS ONLY IN TEDDY'S SONGS!".No they're not.Check Keep Your Head Up, Soldier Boy and also Black Widow.

Some of you even said that there could be half of a word copy pasted and half not ("feeling like your love is DANGerous" - Water [I think Bumper said this months ago]).

2.The Estate already worked on the songs.Before they got to the producers, they were in The Estate's hands.

Secondly the hearing thing is really subjective.Everybody was like "The "hee-hee-hee" in Breaking News is so fake!The rough voice isn't Michael!"

In the end geso (user of Max-Jax) demonstrated that the "hee-hee-hee" was copy pasted from In The Closet, apparently down-pitched and WITH weird vibrato.As for the last parts of Breaking News, they always sounded like Michael to me.
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True these aren't "rough demos" but just pre-mixes. The ad-libs are already there. However, they did indeed change stuff like the speed of Monster or the "mmmhmmm" in KYHU.

When Tricky defended KYHU, he didn't comment on the sampling of Earth Song and instead just said "it's MJ"

I compared the hee hee hee myself, using Melodyne. It's CLOSE to the one in ITC, but there one in BN has more "huff" in the first "hee" like the singer is forcing it out. The vibrato is similar but it's not the same. The one in BN sounds more forced.

MJ has fast vibrato in Keep the Faith and SOOML, but not like that.
 
“….Tis the end of the world
listen on a chance to fall in love [you got it]
Feeling like your love is dangerous
But, I love you girl, Feelin’ like I’m never good enough
Let the heavens open
Its raining in heaven, feels like warm delight
Well hes something new, I’m here for you
And theres no need to cry [ooohhhhh]

If its like water, water, drowning my soul [it feels like]
If its like water, water, it wont leave me alone
If its like water, water
[what am I, what am i] Too do?”

~Water Lyrics


~Black Widow Lyrics

[Ha!] [G’on] [Dog’one, Aoww!]
She drink to the mind
She drink to your fate
You walkin the line
She making you stay
She keeping the count
She making you pay
She ready again, get ready again

Don’t stop, she wants you boy [don’t stop, don’t stop, don’t stop]
She needs you boy [don’t stop, don’t stop, don’t stop]
She wants you boy [don’t stop, don’t stop, don’t stop…][oooh ohh]
Don’t you see she got….

Black Widow on my mind [get ready, baby]
In a web of seduction [stop lying baby]
Shes a looking the women
Shes something to say [get ready, get funky]
Shes no friend of mine [Shes the one, the one for me]
[Dah!] She fed you a lie….]


Ready 2 Win

Its time up put away your fears [do do do (uh) do do do]
And its time you try to dream a little bit [do do do (ah) do do do]
Its time you give your dreams, another chance [do do do, do do do]
And its time to take away the winning hand
To the plain that’s burning strong, to the rain has come and gone
Ill be holding on to memories, I can make it on my own
I believe I’m ready to win,
I know I’m ready to soar
If you pick me up, when I get down, turn it all around
I know I’m ready to win



Fall in love

[uhhhhhohhhhhh]
Tear me apart, break me heart
Let me in this wonder land with you
Your desire warms my heart
I love you from the moment of your sigh

She said she wanna fall in love
She said she wanna give it up [oh]
She said she wanna turn my life, all around
She said she wanna play the game
I love you when you say my name
I love it when you say you want, me around

{I wanna fall, wanna fall in love with you}
{Ooh, just let me fall, let me fall [let me fall with you] in love with you}
{Girl, just let me fall, let me fall in love [with you]}
{Please just let me fall in love with you} [myyyeyye] [oh]


Allright

{cuts into end of sentence}[eee]
[ohh wooowow] [uh]
We can walk away, but I turn my head to see if will {taaakemaaayk?} baby
We can laugh today, then I’m hoping that we throw the storms away [yea yea yea yeaaa]
Baby don’t you leave me standing here
Why you leave me waiting here
Now you got me here in tears

[hold me] hold me tonight [ahh]
Swear to love tonight [uh-yeaa]
Its gonna be all right [myyy]
And everything will be just fine
If you lovin’ me tonight
[tell me that it will be all right, said its going to be just fine]
Gonna be all right, and every things just fine [yea-yeaaa]
And everything will be just fine [dah]
 
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hi Dorian :)

Dorian said:
Well basically now you are telling me that Korgnex might be wrong.I can tell you that also the fans who told you that they were "rough demos" could be wrong also.
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I know you have a lot of respect for Korgnex, but why do you take his word for it? Did he bring any element to prove what he claims? Or do you just trust him..?

Dorian said:
Let's take an in depth look.The so called Monster demo had a slower tempo, but it still had the copy pasted adlibs.This could mean two things.
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ok, lets take a real in depth look.
0:10 : sample from scream
0:42 : sample from escape
0:54 : "yeah-eah-eah" sample from invincible
1:02 : sample de "on the line" ? (sped up?)
1:04 : sample from ghost (short film)

the 2 first samples are easy to extract, because they are in acapella parts but the 3 last ones were taken from acappella that are not available on Internet. This makes me think indeed that Eddie couldn't have inserted them himself, unless he was provided the materials by Sony or the Estate (multitracks of the songs).

Now lets compare the speed of these samples between the early and later versions. I choose the most easy to compare, cause the longer : "yeah-eah-eah", but feel free to compare the others.. ;)
It seems to me that the "yeah-eah-eah" is slower in the demo than in Invincible whereas its slightly faster in the final version of Monster. Could anyone confirm this? (I don't have the spectrogram software to be so accurate..)
This would tell us which version is the original tempo. Maybe the real tempo is in between the demo and the final mix?


Dorian said:
1.The producers put they're touches on the songs.No, I'm not referring only to Teddy Riley.Most people said "THERE ARE COPY PASTED WORDS ONLY IN TEDDY'S SONGS!".No they're not.Check Keep Your Head Up, Soldier Boy and also Black Widow.

Some of you even said that there could be half of a word copy pasted and half not ("feeling like your love is DANGerous" - Water [I think Bumper said this months ago]).
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sorry, but I repeat "THERE ARE COPY PASTED WORDS ONLY IN TEDDY'S SONGS!" :D (until if you prove me the contrary) :)
There are samples, screams like "yeah", "ooh", "doggone" and a "youu" (from Butterflies)... but MJ words inserted into the lyrics themselves can only be found on Breaking News and Monster, the two songs on which Teddy Riley worked. And the "DANgerous" in Water is ALL Jason.

Dorian said:
2.The Estate already worked on the songs.Before they got to the producers, they were in The Estate's hands.
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How do you know about that? Please justify with a source..

Dorian said:
Secondly the hearing thing is really subjective.Everybody was like "The "hee-hee-hee" in Breaking News is so fake!The rough voice isn't Michael!"

In the end geso (user of Max-Jax) demonstrated that the "hee-hee-hee" was copy pasted from In The Closet, apparently down-pitched and WITH weird vibrato.
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I don't know why Geso confirmed such a thing about the "hee-hee-hee" but they really doesn't sound the same to me. Please have a look at this comparison: http://soundcloud.com/mjmaaax/hee-hee-hee

Dorian said:
As for the last parts of Breaking News, they always sounded like Michael to me.
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the "keep" is taken from invincible. Normal, it's Teddy's work ;)
 
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mjmax said:
0:54 : "yeah-eah-eah" sample from invincible
1:02 : sample de "on the line" ? (sped up?)
1:04 : sample from ghost (short film)

the 2 first samples are easy to extract, because they are in acapella parts but the 3 last ones were taken from acappella that are not available on Internet. This makes me think indeed that Eddie couldn't have inserted them himself, unless he was provided the materials by Sony or the Estate (multitracks of the songs).

Now lets compare the speed of these samples between the early and later versions. I choose the most easy to compare, cause the longer : "yeah-eah-eah", but feel free to compare the others.. ;)
It seems to me that the "yeah-eah-eah" is slower in the demo than in Invincible whereas its slightly faster in the final version of Monster. Could anyone confirm this? (I don't have the spectrogram software to be so accurate..)
This would tell us which version is the original tempo. Maybe the real tempo is in between the demo and the final mix?



sorry, but I repeat "THERE ARE COPY PASTED WORDS ONLY IN TEDDY'S SONGS!" :D (until if you prove me the contrary) :)
There are samples, screams like "yeah", "ooh", "doggone" and a "youu" (from Butterflies)... but MJ words inserted into the lyrics themselves can only be found on Breaking News and Monster, the two songs on which Teddy Riley worked. And the "DANgerous" in Water is ALL Jason.


How do you know about that? Please justify with a source..


I don't know why Geso confirmed such a thing about the "hee-hee-hee" but they really doesn't sound the same to me. Please have a look at this comparison: http://soundcloud.com/mjmaaax/hee-hee-hee


the "keep" is taken from invincible. Normal, it's Teddy's work ;)
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I think the yeaah isn't from Invincibvle as Geso said before, too raspy. It's likely from Threatened with some "processing"

The "hoo" from YRMW has been processed differently each time for BN, as with the "WHY" in monster.

No you must use Melodyne to compare the hee hee hee, plus your comparison is at the wrong pitch. Still they do not sound the same. The BN one sounds more forced
 
Frankyboy5 said:
I think the yeaah isn't from Invincibvle as Geso said before, too raspy. It's likely from Threatened with some "processing"

The "hoo" from YRMW has been processed differently each time for BN, as with the "WHY" in monster.

No you must use Melodyne to compare the hee hee hee, plus your comparison is at the wrong pitch. Still they do not sound the same. The BN one sounds more forced
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Well.. Geso said the "yeah-eah-eah" is not from Invincible but she ensured "hee-hee-hee" is from ITC ?!? - huh :-/
Trust your ears before to trust softwares ;)
I do agree that the "yeah" from invincible sounds slightly more raspy.. but I think it so identical from the beginning to the end. It's just a bit processed in my opinion. And as far as I remember, the "yeah" from Threatened are however notably different.

you know how much time it took me to make this comparison ? :D They sounded so different that I didn't even try to adjust the pitch..
 
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Also, how is the "keep" from Invincible? When he sings "If I could tear down these walls that keep you and I apart" it doesn't sound as raspy as the end of Breaking News, but I could be wrong. Also seems like he sings "keep" in Invincible a bit higher as well as softer. I'm not sure though, I'm definitely no expert at this...

I agree that the end of Breaking News sounds very Michael-ish to me. The verses and chorus don't but at the end with the "You keep on breaking the news, breaking the news - hoo!" sounds closest to Michael on the song. Could it be made up of copy-and-pasted MJ ad-libs just like the "stalking me" bit at the end of Monster?

Haven't given Breaking News a listen in a while...

It would be nice to know Michael at least made some contribution to these songs even in the slightest way I guess I want to feel a bit of his presence.
 
mjmax said:
Well.. Geso said the "yeah-eah-eah" is not from Invincible but she ensured "hee-hee-hee" is from ITC ?!? - huh :-/
Trust your ears before to trust softwares ;)
I do agree that the "yeah" from invincible sounds slightly more raspy.. but I think it so identical from the beginning to the end. It's just a bit processed in my opinion. And as far as I remember, the "yeah" from Threatened are however notably different.

you know how much time it took me to make this comparison ? :D They sounded so different that I didn't even try to adjust the pitch..
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When you adjust the pitch, they become remarkably similar.

No I don't know if Geso said hee hee hee was from ITC. In ITC MJ's vibrato is very fast on the last "hee" but it's not as long as the BN note. Plus later on they add more hees.

http://www.box.net/shared/y1ez2vkod4n4g4gmy37e

I compared the "keep" from BN, with some pitch correction it's an exact match (there are 2 different "keeps" in the song, one appears to be "Jason" the other is MJ in the adlibs near the end). The raspiness can be cleaned up but I still don't believe that "yeah" is from Invincible. It sounds a lot like Threatened, with some editing done to pitch and timing (like how they edited for This Is It).

This is another comparison of Keep the Faith vibrato with KYHU:
http://www.box.net/shared/nfc88xqdm6
 
mjmax said:
hi Dorian :)
I know you have a lot of respect for Korgnex, but why do you take his word for it? Did he bring any element to prove what he claims? Or do you just trust him..?
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Hey Maxi.Well I respect Korgnex because he is always telling us real info about the releases and unreleased stuff.Just like most people here (including me) Believe Birchey, I also believe Korgnex.I'm trying to say that both of them can tell something wrong.I am not taking anybody's part.It's just a little sad, you know?People, both believers and non believers trying to make others to sound wrong.I'm really analizing this from a neutral position.

mjmax said:
sorry, but I repeat "THERE ARE COPY PASTED WORDS ONLY IN TEDDY'S SONGS!"
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Black Widow?Same "HA!" like in Monster.

Earth Song adlibs in Keep Your Head Up early version.

Breaths/"Noo!Noo!" - Soldier Boy.

mjmax said:
How do you know about that? Please justify with a source..
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I'm trying to find the link.They are the only guys who had acces to the whole archieve though.

mjmax said:
I don't know why Geso confirmed such a thing about the "hee-hee-hee" but they really doesn't sound the same to me. Please have a look at this comparison:
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I'll contact him personally on the other board as the topics are closed.We also have the clean ITC acapella made from extracting the central channel from the HIStory Greatest Hits.
 
I have respected Birchey more than Korgnex for only the fact that Korgnex seems to act disrespectfully at times, short tempered, trying to twist things to fit the believer perspective. However, Birchey was very honest, kind, simple, to the point, didn't fight with anyone and didn't play games.
 
Dorian said:
It's just a little sad, you know?People, both believers and non believers trying to make others to sound wrong.I'm really analizing this from a neutral position.
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I agree mostly with you on this. People from both sides are too hasty when they get an element that confirms their opinion...
Please notice that I didn't make any conclusion.. for me, these songs don't seem to be the demos as they were given by the Cascio (for the reasons I mentioned).. but I still miss some elements to be sure..

Dorian said:
Black Widow?Same "HA!" like in Monster.

Earth Song adlibs in Keep Your Head Up early version.

Breaths/"Noo!Noo!" - Soldier Boy.
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indeed.. and there are many other samples. But the technique is not the same. I don't know if I could make myself clear enough. I meant words replaced into the lead vocals, like :

- "why" (in the last verse of the song)
- "he's" ("and HE'S moving in the air")
- "me" ("why you keep on stalking ME" )
- "keep" ("you KEEp on breaking the news")

all are taken in Invincible.. and this technique is very specific to Monster and Breaking News. Samples in other songs aren't meant to be "embedded" in the song.. they are just like a "seasoning" put on the top of the lyrics to make the song more Michaelish.. :)

Dorian said:
I'm trying to find the link.They are the only guys who had acces to the whole archieve though.
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I think you're referring to what Friedman said.. but when he said that the Estate worked on songs, he actually didn't mention the Cascio tracks. But maybe you have another source in mind?


Frankyboy5 said:
When you adjust the pitch, they become remarkably similar.

No I don't know if Geso said hee hee hee was from ITC. In ITC MJ's vibrato is very fast on the last "hee" but it's not as long as the BN note. Plus later on they add more hees.

http://www.box.net/shared/y1ez2vkod4n4g4gmy37e
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I still don't think they are similar.. sorry. The "hee-hee-hee" from BN is breathed out and the vibrato is different.

Frankyboy5 said:
The raspiness can be cleaned up but I still don't believe that "yeah" is from Invincible. It sounds a lot like Threatened, with some editing done to pitch and timing (like how they edited for This Is It).
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Show us a comparison between Threatened and Monster.. if you think it's better. But I'm skeptical.. :-/

Frankyboy5 said:
This is another comparison of Keep the Faith vibrato with KYHU:
http://www.box.net/shared/nfc88xqdm6
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this one was good.. it shows clearly the difference between Michael and Jason :)

Aniram said:
I agree that the end of Breaking News sounds very Michael-ish to me. The verses and chorus don't but at the end with the "You keep on breaking the news, breaking the news - hoo!" sounds closest to Michael on the song. Could it be made up of copy-and-pasted MJ ad-libs just like the "stalking me" bit at the end of Monster?
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Haven't given Breaking News a listen in a while...

you made a good point here.. the "keep" I was referring to is of course the one at the end of the song (which is different from the "keep" sung by Jason). My guess is that Teddy Riley wanted, in a way, to "extend" the songs.. I mean that there is a similar work done at the end of BN and Monster. The final parts are made by mixing words of Jason and Michael, repeated over and over... these parts sounds more like Michael of course... When you think of it, it was rather a good idea to make the sentences begin with Michael so that our brain retain his voice as first impression... but in fact it didn't work so well with experienced fans :)

Aniram said:
It would be nice to know Michael at least made some contribution to these songs even in the slightest way I guess I want to feel a bit of his presence.
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it would be nice.. but it's not the case unfortunately.. everything is taken from existing songs.. and widely "Invincible" :-(
 
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mjmax said:
all are taken in Invincible.. and this technique is very specific to Monster and Breaking News. Samples in other songs aren't meant to "inlay" in the song.. they are just like a "seasoning" to make the song more Michaelish.. :)
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I think this is likely because Breaking News was a promo single and Monster was supposed to be a single. If they were going to get radio play they needed to be a bit more deceptive.
 
Dorian said:
Believe me, I know what I'm talking about.There are some frequences that even they are fixed they sound like sh*t.It's like autotune for example.The high notes sound so robotic...
Click to expand...

Have you every actually used Melodyne yourself ? Have you ever listened to "Fall in Love" yourself?
If a singer is 'off' that means, he's off by let's say 2-3 semi tones at the very very most. Mostly it's less than a semi tone, which still is painfully heard very clearly.
2-3 semi tones change with Melodyne sounds pretty good. Quite often you won't even notice.

"couldn't fix" ...

I tell you something. If Michael Jackson actually sang those pieces, and if he was off let's say 8 semitones - pitched up by Melodyne it would STILL sound better, than the Cascio singer.
 
mjmax said:
indeed.. and there are many other samples. But the technique is not the same. I don't know if I could make myself clear enough. I meant words replaced into the lead vocals, like...
Click to expand...

I was pointing out that what leaked were not the original demos, but already worked-on versions of the songs.Most people claim they're original untouched demos.

Edit: Apparently the quoting system has some severe problems...
 
mjmax said:
I still don't think they are similar.. sorry. The "hee-hee-hee" from BN is breathed out and the vibrato is different.


Show us a comparison between Threatened and Monster.. if you think it's better. But I'm skeptical.. :-/


this one was good.. it shows clearly the difference between Michael and Jason :)


Haven't given Breaking News a listen in a while...
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I do think they're different as the one in BN is much more forced and breathy, but I meant they sound more similar if you correct the BN hee hee with melodyne, compared to if you were to just use a simple pitch corrector (like in Vegas).

In Vegas you can use FORMANT under properties of the audio file (which works a bit like Melodyne this way) but it isn't always accurate.

The "you" in "why you stalkin me" is also from another point in Invincible according to Pentum, but I haven't checked on that yet.

Monster vs Threatened:
http://www.box.net/shared/vhh3fq4qrcf8u5o16kzv
It's similar but Threatened has a bit more raspiness and sounds forced. Monster's sounds "clean"

Points that doubters get divided on are the "ha" from Monster and Black Widow. Although I think the ha sounds a lot like MJ, I cannot make a comment on it, some other people say it's Jason because it's very boyband-ish. Black Widow has ad-libs similar to MJ in Superfly sister but I believe these are Jason.
 
The hee hee's in BN, I'm convinced are from ITC. They sound identical except for the pitch and the fast vibrato. However the fast vibrato on them doesn't sound very natural to me, which means to me, the original was not only copy and pasted, but put through something to make it sound that way.
 
I believe the hee hees are Jason. They sound MORE like his own falsetto than MJ's.
 
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