Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[ivy]

 

[Tygger]

plaintiffs are in control of who they call to the stand. They don't need a doctors note to not call Paris to testify. A doctors note can only determine if AEG can call her - if they even want to.

Ivy, I do not share the fear of others and maybe yourself that the plaintiffs will call her. This is to ensure the defense cannot. The same as with the youngest.

The issue is you are approaching it like a fact however the reality is there had been a claim of Gongaware being told about MJ's dependency issues (we are yet to see Dr. Finkelstein deposition / testimony) and Gongaware denied it. there's no way to know what will the jury will decide about what Gongaware knew or did not know.

Ivy, it is a fact it is an issue in this trial and that is how I stated my comment.

So you agree that if Michael said "no", he couldn't be seen by a neutral doctor - unless of course as Dr. Metheson continues to say "Phillips said you cannot come back to rehearsals after you see a doctor" - which is a threat.

And he could have, he treated Michael for 3 years before the tour and he could have continued to treat Michael for 30 years after the tour - as long as Michael wanted him.

Dr. Matheson disagrees with you or you disagree with him. He said such would still make Murray feel beholden to AEG.

I am not going to agree or disagree with your question. I only explained Dr. Matheson’s suggestion. Dr. Matheson was very aware that the defense’s question was not an advance but, referred to pre-production cost figures ($34M and $1.5M) which would include alleged employment by AEG. Those questions did not refer to an advance that did not include alleged employment by AEG regardless of the words advance and front being used.

I believe you may be missing the fact that the doctor was not going to be a tour doctor. To have a contract where a personal doctor is released from his duties with the termination or cancellation of the tour is a conflict for that personal doctor. It means his salary is based on the tour lasting. After a possible tour termination/cancellation, the doctor could very well continue to treat Michael but, NOT at the negotiated rate of $150K that the doctor depended on. And, no Michael would most likely not continue the doctor at that rate as he could not compensate the doctor at that rate originally thus, AEG stepping in. Can you see how this is an issue?

If you need further clarification : some people say why Murray was hired given he was a cardiologist and Michael did not have a heart problem. My post said Murray was also an internal medicine doctor which is by all standards competent to handle general care of adults. It's a fact.

Ivy, you have restated your point and it is still shocking. The doctor was hired to aid Michael’s sleep issues and he was not qualified. Not one stitch of his training qualified him for anesthesiology. He was not hired for anything else. If he was, why was AEG looking for other medical and non-medical professionals to assist with Michael’s health?

I believe Bouee said it best:

then why is so hard to say that sleep issues were talked about ? Why feel the need to lie about it, or say that you "don't remebmer" (PG) and that they were NOt talked about. What is a sleep issue if it's not insomnia ? I guess your point is to say they were not aware of how serious the insomnia was, and I agree with that. But they knew it WAS an issue.

Your'e taking this discussion back to where it was 2-3 days ago, as if we hadn't talked about it already. Why need a nutrtionnist when you have a full time doctor ? That's the point of the nutritionnist talk. PG could not explain it himself. Why can't the doctor take care of that ? Why did AEG accept that Murray couldn't take care of that ? Why did they accept to pay for a nutritionnist/food person when they had a full time doctor and costs were already well over the limit ? Because they knew it was NOT his job. And that was a good occasion to realise Murray was not competent as well.

not many realize that Prince created an employment between Michael and Murray long before even AEG come into the picture.

Please do not confuse his testimony. Before April/May 2009, Michael paid the SELF-EMPLOYED doctor for a service. From April/May 2009, whenever the doctor’s contract was to be retroactive to, Michael gave money to his children to give to the doctor (as the doctor was prideful) in the absence of the salary he was to receive from AEG.



TJ Jackson, Taj Jackson and Michael’s oldest are testifying to the lost the plaintiffs suffered. The plaintiffs have to prove a lost was suffered or there would be no purpose to a wrongful death trial. They are not playing violins for damages. It is protocol to give examples of lost during a wrongful death trial. Some fans are counting AEG’s possible monetary damages with more fervor than the defense.

 

[ivy]

only one thing

Ivy, you have restated your point and it is still shocking. The doctor was hired to aid Michael’s sleep issues and he was not qualified. Not one stitch of his training qualified him for anesthesiology. He was not hired for anything else. If he was, why was AEG looking for other medical and non-medical professionals to assist with Michael’s health?

show me where it says Murray is hired for "sleep issues" or that AEG knew the sleep issues.

If he was hired for sleep issues or anesthesiology - yes he's not competent. but the contract said he was being hired for "general care", he was competent for that. reportedly Michael said "my body is the machine and I need Murray to take care of it", he was competent for that. If Michael said "I can't sleep more than 3 hours and I need someone to give me anesthesia" Murray wasn't competent for that. and if it's not clear I'm talking from AEG's perspective which is all this case about - what AEG knew.

the other medical professionals is the "team" that you were talking about in your previous posts, or the specialists that people use when needed. A nutritionist is far more knowledgeable and expert on nutrition than a internal medicine doctor. We cannot even compare a psychiatrist to a internal medicine doctor.

 

[MIST]

why was AEG looking for other medical and non-medical professionals to assist with Michael’s health?

In Sweden it´s the nutritionist who is the experts on nutrition, not the doctor.It´s the same with for example naprapaths, physiotherapists, they have more knowledge than doctors, in their own field.

 

[Vici]

Looking back at those videos that was shown in court. I wish the kids will reach some kind of state of happiness again one day. They deserve to be happy healthy children.

 

[Tygger]

Ivy, Mist, no.

This is the dialogue Bouee is having with Passy001 and Bouee has not been successful regardless of how much testimony she posts from AEG’s independent contractors (Walker, Sankey, Payne, and possible Ortega when he testifies) and the memory lost of AEG’s employees.

You are looking for Gongaware and Phillips to admit to knowing on the stand and they have maintained their convenient memory loss regarding sleep issue discussions. This leaves each of us, including the jury, to decide if we believe Gongaware and Phillips knew the true purpose to the doctor’s service to Michael.

Regarding a medical team, Michael should have had one and he did NOT. He only had a personal doctor who, on paper, was to give general care but, in reality only anesthetized him. AEG only attempted to create a team when push came to shove. Bouee has a better memory than me as to when that team creation attempt started.

 

[ivy]

This leaves each of us, including the jury, to decide if we believe Gongaware and Phillips knew the true purpose to the doctor’s service to Michael.

If you realize this why are so surprised that some people don't believe what you believe? and why do you have the need to write everything like it's a fact when it's merely what you believe in, your personal take on the events?

and what I believe in is quite simple - even though people might know about Michael's sleep issues, it doesn't mean they knew about anesthesia. I mean isn't that what people testified? For example Ortega knew Michael could not sleep but did he know Propofol? Without knowing Propofol how could anyone even consider whether Murray is competent or not in anesthesia?

 

[Ashtanga]

Oh God..... *big sigh*

is just done to emotionally influence the jury. the judge is very slack with anything goes attitude

Obviously! I have no doubt that's it!

 

[Tygger]

Ivy, I am very aware I am posting in a thread where the majority prefer the plaintiffs, Michael's mother and children, lose this trial for whatever reasons. I am not in the majority and I am not surprised others do not believe what I do.

I have no idea why you continually suggest that my thoughts in particular are stated as fact when I am stating my thoughts just like every other poster. I do not understand how this encourages conversation unless you prefer to hinder it.

 

[Smooth72]

Oh God..... *big sigh*









Obviously! I have no doubt that's it!

In the end everything is being over analyzed. IMO. The hard thing is we are not there to see the testimony. We are reading words and second hand reporting. How the jury views the witnesses will determine the verdict. We shall see. In the end IMO its better for MJ if the Jackson's win.....

 

[ivy]

@tygger

you twice said you were "shocked" and can't you really the see the difference between your "the doctor was hired for sleep issues" - a very matter of the fact statement and for example bouee's hypothetical and let's checks?

In my mind this matter of the fact statements - like we all think like your version of the events - is actually hindering the discussion. And it requires a constant reply of "okay show me the basis for this fact like claim". A little "I believe" or "I think" can do great wonders for the discussion. If someone is going to push their opinion on me like it's a fact even after I twice explained my position, I kinda have no more interest in the discussion mainly because that's not a discussion.

 

[Vici]

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP30 m
Stebbins Bina then asked TJ whether he believed his uncle Michael was murdered. “I do,” TJ responded.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP29 m
Michael Jackson told TJ and his brothers a couple times that he thought he would be murdered, he said. He said he didn't believe it at first

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP28 m
“My mother was murdered for money,” TJ said. “I don’t put anything past anyone.”

 

[Vici]

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP27 m
Shortly after this, there was an afternoon break and they held a sidebar hearing over notes that Taj was going to testify about.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP27 m
One of the notes was from Paris to her father, expressing happiness that she got a hug. The judge ruled it couldn’t be shown to jury.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP27 m
Another note that Jackson wrote about something Blanket said at age 6 will be shown to jury, but with his age will be redacted.

Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP27 m
Plaintiff’s attorneys argued that the notes were “classic wrongful death evidence” and should be allowed in.

---------------------

How are notes 'wrongful death evidence'?

 

[AngieJ]

I find myself so confused by The Jacksons. One minute they're going on about conspiracies, but then the next minute, they are bizarrely careless when it comes to the kids of the man they say has this conspiracy against him. Or they themselves are in bed with the most shadiest people.

 

[ivy]

How are notes 'wrongful death evidence'?

to determine emotional damages

 

[Ashtanga]

In the end IMO its better for MJ if the Jackson's win.....

Well, everyone knows that this judgment is about money ..... nothing more. :fear:

 

[Tygger]

Ivy, Ivy, Ivy, did you miss that I quoted Bouee’s comment that the doctor was hired for sleep issues?

To say that my posts, thoughts, and/or “matter of fact statements” are hindering 260 pages of discussion is giving me far too much credit and is untrue.

My opinions were never forced on you. You simply do not agree with them and I do not agree with some of yours. I do not have an issue with this so, what is the real problem?

 

[ivy]

what is the real problem?

really? I clearly stated what I feel which you disagreed. Just because you disagree doesn't change how I feel.

 

[Aquarius]

It makes perfect sense to me. Prince said Michael ate less meal with them in June. Don't forget although the children were homeschooled, they followed the school schedule strictly. 23th, 24th, Michael rehearsed in staple centre all days. When Michael woke up, his children were in class. when he went home, they slept. So it's quite normal, if prince didnt talk with his father in june 23th. he said it could be 23th, or 24th. He couldn't remember the date but remember it's the last conversation with his father. Latoya's words are the things she heard from the children. what picture of Paris celebration? A cake? What others did for you doesn't mean you want it yourself.

Yeah, Michael was a strict father and a loving father too, so I don't think he would go one day without talking to his children and now you're adding an extra day.

If the last time he spoke to Michael was when he told him about the meeting then, to me, it had to be on the 24th because I can't imagine Michael going thru a day without talking to his children. I think he mixed up the sequence of events.

 

[sfosteredi]

The only positive I see out of this lawsuit is that it answers some questions I had about Michael's deterorating health.
I see a correlation between the testimony sleep expert, Dr. Charles Czeisler gave on Friday and Prince’s and other witnesses’ testimony.
Dr. Czeisler said the symptoms MJ exhibited — laid out in emails and testimony from people who watched him during rehearsals for his scheduled London concerts — were "consistent with what you might expect to see in someone suffering from total sleep deprivation over a chronic period of time."
When Murray was administering propofol during the last 2 months of Michael life, he wasn’t getting the REM sleep we need to keep the brain working properly. Those symptoms included weight loss, paranoia, anxiety, chills, difficulty with balance and an inability to perform his dance steps,etc. Examples:

Paranoia - Michael saying "They're gonna kill me ... they're gonna kill me."

Chills - Michael wore multiple layers of clothes, was shivering

Weight loss – Michael dramatic weight loss from April to June. loss of appetite in last weeks

Difficulty with balance/Inability to perform dance steps – Michael saying “I need more time to rehearse” (It’s been said that in the past Michael attended rehearsals to see how everyone else was coming along, he knew his part, this time he was having trouble)

Anxiety – Michael worried about his popularity fading, worried about his health (according to Chef Chase he said” I need you to keep me healthy. I'm working hard. They're killing me” Even Michael knew something was wrong.)

Hand tremors – Michael could not feed himself, hand shaking

Hallucinations – Michael repeating “God is talking to me “ (I’m not saying God wasn’t talking to him but it can be caused by hallucinations) Talking to himself repeatedly.

Memory Loss - MJ asked for the teleprompter. These are words that Michael had sung hundreds of times. Michael lost dance moves in the last days.

The symptoms that many of the witnesses have talked about seeing during the last 2 months of Michael’s life can be traced back to lack of REM sleep which Propopol deprived him of. I am pretty sure when he was “sleeping” at Dr. Arnie’s office it was Propofol then too, not real sleep. Too bad the doctors treating Michael didn’t know about the effects of lack of REM sleep and Propofol.
This is just my attempt to make sense out of this horrible senseless loss.

As for who wins, the only Jacksons I care about are PPB and this won't help them. They have enough money. The people who will benefit the most didn't loss a dad. So there is no "win" for me.

 

[Joyce]

Well, everyone knows that this judgment is about money ..... nothing more. :fear:

I agree. MJ has already been trashed and his dignity damaged even more. No one cares about the man, only the commodity except for the three children. I think it was MJ himself who said that money in itself isn't evil, but the love of money is evil. He's right.

 

[8701girl]

Or they themselves are in bed with the most shadiest people.

Yep la toya being buddies with victor guiterrez for one

 

[8701girl]

I have a frightening scenario in my mind of MJ being hooked up to propofol and awake and RP standing right there and threatening MJ..such as, either perform or die. I'm sure something like that couldn't be the case, could it?

I thought of this also and its scares the hell out of me

 

[Justthefacts]

Under propofol and waking up? Oh boy. Good night everyone

 

[ivy]

I have a frightening scenario in my mind of MJ being hooked up to propofol and awake and RP standing right there and threatening MJ..such as, either perform or die. I'm sure something like that couldn't be the case, could it?

it couldn't be. first you can't be hooked up to Propofol and awake, also Michael's death time is probably 1-2 hours before paramedics called - so it was morning when chef was in the house and the kids were awake and playing downstairs and fans & paps waiting outside. Unless there was some sort of invisible ninja, it would be impossible for anyone to walk past fans, security, mj's kids, household staff and go upstairs kill Michael and leave before paramedics arrived.

the only remotely possible murder scenario would be Murray intentionally overdosing Michael but as we have seen from the criminal trial, there's no basis to prove any intent.

Everyone's - meaning AEG and/or Murray - best interest was Michael alive and touring for months and years and years, not dead.

 

[CherubimII]

I believe Michael Jackson was murdered.

Things do not happen. Things are made to happen.

quote from President John F. Kennedy

 

[Tygger]

Ivy, alrighty then.

I believe Michael Jackson was murdered.

CherubimII So does TJ as per his testimony today.

TJ and Taj did share lovely, family memories that were pleasing to hear.

 

[PrɛttyღBµʈʈɇrƒℓу]

Still on the testimony of Prince. I don't understand very well that part. What Joe has to do? Does anyone know?

Anthony McCartney @mccartneyAP 19 h
Prince: “People from AEG, they got let in, but people like my grandpa would get turned away.”

Like the Prince, the testimony of TJ was very tender. Michael really should be a mainstay for him and his siblings after everything that happened to them. How many traumas ... they have strength.

AEG must have agreed with TJ that there was nothing wrong with Michael, apparently.

 

[Ashtanga]

Everyone's - meaning AEG and/or Murray - best interest was Michael alive and touring for months and years and years, not dead.

MJ the cash machine. *big sigh*

TJ and Taj did share lovely, family memories that were pleasing to hear.

What did they say?

 

[crillon]

I just wanted to say kudos to Ivy for her good sense, endless patience and dedication. Being a moderator is a tough job (I know from personal experience) and oftentimes a thankless one. She does an extraordinary job and is one of the reasons MJJC has the most highly respected legal sections among all Michael Jackson forums. I think she deserves our gratitude, not attitude. JMO