Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

Status
Not open for further replies.
When did Murray start ordering Propofol, did that come up in Mr. Putnam's closing at all?

Oh and I totally agree with you regarding Mr. Dukes next article. LOL! Somebody needs to tell him that all of his hard work will not garner him an interview with MJ's children after the verdict has been announced. That promise has already been extended to Oprah Winfrey, in my opinion. I mean, why mess with a small potato like Alan Duke, when you have Ms. Winfrey on SPEED DIAL.

CM ordered propofol April 6th--first time, and then 3 (?) more orders after that. I think it was 120 vials all together of propofol, plus 80 combined of lorazepam and midalozam (sp?).

Does anyone know re Kai Chase's testimony when CM started staying over at Carolwood? When did she see the oxygen tanks?
 
morinen;3908792 said:
Why is the plantiff allowed a rebuttal? Isnt't the defendant supposed to have the last word?

Bubs;3908800 said:
Because the plaintiff or government has the burden of proof, the lawyer for that side is then entitled to make a concluding argument, sometimes called a rebuttal . This is a chance to respond to the defendant’s points and make one final appeal to the jury.

http://www.americanbar.org/groups/p...network/how_courts_work/closingarguments.html

exactly, due to burden proof. if you remember Walgren also had the rebuttal in which he did the incredible "poor Conrad Murray" bit
 
exactly, due to burden proof. if you remember Walgren also had the rebuttal in which he did the incredible "poor Conrad Murray" bit

Thank you both for explaining. I didn't watch the Murray trial after that photo was shown.
 
Aquarius you should try to look at it. Putnam was very good in explaining what the plaintiffs HAD to prove. I saw the difference in just reading a selection of tweets vs looking at evidence that relates to specific issues from the jury instructions. We saw Panish's side and now we have Putnam's side, so it is very easy to see the strengths and weaknesses. Now let's see what the jury will think.

Gee I wish I could be at the Jackson's meeting tonight. I wonder if Randy will tweet?
 
This whole thing makes me sad because Michael was such a private person. There are things that only he can explain and we can't get that.
 
Does anyone know re Kai Chase's testimony when CM started staying over at Carolwood? When did she see the oxygen tanks?

Kai Chase started working at Carolwood at the end of March and then in the begining of May she was let go and returned in June.

She said she first saw Murray in April (I don't remember if begining or mid).
In April she used to see Murray 2 or 3 times a week. In June, she saw him everyday (she also had Sundays off, I think).

She would see Murray walking down the stairs with the oxigen tanks more in June than in April. In April only occasionally and the tanks were smaller.
 
re Kai--she said she met CM last weeks of April (rather vague here) but she didn't see him bring anything into the house and he wasn't there much. Then she was let go in May. In June she was back and saw him more often and with the oxygen tanks.

I was thinking maybe we will have all this behind us soon, but then if there's an appeal, it will go on. Makes me realize why MJ settled the Chandler civil suit back in 94--imagine the news coverage and the long trial with all the horrible accusations--would have been awful.

edit--thanks, smoothlugar--(seems to be a discrepancy re the tanks tho'. Hmmm)
 
In relation to the occasional oxigen tanks she saw in April, I don't think that's a conclusive evidence they were used to administer propofol. They might have been used to administer the IV benzos or just for other medical reasons.
 
^^Yeah he has the rebuttal closing.

Well I have to say Putnam's closing made me realize we missed a lot of key testimony. We were only getting tweets that helped the family side. Now from what Putnam said I see a lot of information came out that supported AEG. I did not know they had a timeline with Muarry's activity with Michael before AEG's first contact with Muarry, for example. If we had that, we could have discussed all this at the time.

Putnam made a very strong, clear argument for AEG Live. I think the only way they will lose is if all the jury members are deaf.
 
Please.. MJ will be fine... you are overexaggerating.. If his image wasn't destroyed with false allegations over 25 years and a fake 2005 molestation trial, then it won't be over this bullcrap... If anything this trial made me more sympathetic to MJ because it proved he had real medical conditions and it showed his doctors took advantage for money and didn't help him at all.. He was the victim in my opinion. The medical profession and the doctors let him down and his family or friends didn't help him.

I think you don't follow the views of general public opinion about possible results of this trial and the total lack of advertisement deals in future for an estate (because of the "new" addict image) is not your concern. It doesn't has to be. But I think that after the criminal trial and Murray conviction there were the chance for MJ's rehabilitation in the eyes of general public. He definitely deserved it. Unfortunately this trial just increased number of people thinking that his death was self inflicted.
 
it's fairly safe to say that from the facts proven today is that Murray** has been in associates with Michael first since he was hired to be the family doctor in 06', we also learn that Michael has been taking propofol for more than 20 years, requesting it from many different doctors and most of the time being rejected.. after these rejections Michael didn't have any contact with most of them. So, AEG insisted on allowing Murray to be Michael's doctor on this Tour, Murray said he would give Michael Propofol for the Tour, his other doctors (past friends) said "no." also let's bring in the evidence that Michael asked for this knowing that he could die, surely AEG should have done something to ensure that Michael was being given the best standard of care with minimal risk of death. which should have been done by them monitoring the job that Murray had been doing on Michael.

anyway, it's been a long day! night guys :)
 
Last edited:
Not responding to Aquarius, just repeating the question as it hasn't been answered. Is there a link so we can watch some of the closing for both sides?

Thanks.

I wanted to watch AEG's closing but HLN didn't show much. By your comments I think Putnam did a good job. Is there a link where I can watch it?
 
check the testimony summary thread. it has about half of each sides closing arguments in video format
 
So...as I predicted AEG puts Michael Jackson on trial and asks a jury to find him guilty.
I will refrain from giving my opinions about AEG.
Instead, I will take this opportunity to say:
"Thank you" Michael Jackson for the
"Love".
:girl_in_love:

My prayer is that God grants Michael Jackson and his children
(Prince, Paris, and Blanket) a heavenly peace.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1QiUCIOxw8




 
No matter which side wins, Michael already lost. That disgusting trial didn't make him any justice. :( I hope you're both happy Randy and Katherine Jackson!:angry:
 
Putnam is truly gifted. I agree much of what he said made logical sense however, it lacked depth as did AEG's defense. Putnam understands it is not what is said, it is how it is said. The jurors have access to the evidence. Matching evidence to many of Putnam statements will disprove them and I hope the jurors take the time to do just that.

Putnam said Dileo signed a declaration that he viewed an employment contract draft for the doctor. He stated this proves Michael’s team saw a draft. Beneath the surface of that statement, Putnam gives no evidence of which draft Dileo saw, if Dileo saw each draft as there were a few, if Dileo spoke to Michael about it or only saw a draft, and lastly and most importantly, if anyone else on Michael’s team, particularly one of his lawyers saw any and all drafts which would not be the final copy that was emailed directly to the doctor for his signature.

Putnam said Michael died of a propofol overdose and that it was inevitable. AEG could not prove Michael was a propofol addict yet, they suggest it and some may find it logical. Beneath the surface of that statement, Putnam refused to mention the doctor serving two years for involuntary manslaughter for his negligent administration of propofol. Propofol did not cause Michael’s passing, the negligent administration of it did. It was not inevitable that Michael would pass from the negligent administration of propofol.

Putnam said Michael paid the doctor ten times before he passed. Beneath the surface of that statement, the doctor was paid in Vegas more so than in Carolwood, before Michael signed the TII contract, and often included the general care of Michael’s children, not for the administration of propofol.

Putnam dodged instances of AEG having any possible responsibility whatsoever when they inserted themselves into the doctor-patient relationship. All onuses were placed squarely on Michael’s shoulders. He repeated Michael hired the doctor with no substance behind it; just a directive statement to the jurors to accept blindly when AEG never touched this ideal once during their defense.

The written contract that was not valid because it lacked two signatures should have its clauses considered valid when those clauses might benefit AEG. Putnam was extremely fond of the indemnity clause and the "general care" phrase in a contract that is not valid. For Putnam, an implied contract did not exist and a relationship between AEG and the doctor did not exist despite evidence (including conversations and emails) contradicting him. The implied contract does not take into account the indemnity clause or the "general care" phrase as it relies on verbal clues and actions.

And I remember you said the sleep issues came again later so MJ had the right to not remember about it during medical for insurance.

Elapentela, allow me to repost my statement again. If the evaluation was in February and Michael found he could not sleep the following April, how could he honestly state he had sleep issues in February during the insurance evaluation if he did not? Should he predict he may not be able to sleep in July? When he found he could not sleep in April, how many medical professionals did he reach out to as per testimony? Was he fabricating his insomnia to any of those medical professionals then? Was he keeping his insomnia a secret then?

As for the remainder of your post, AEG decided on their defense which included besmirching Michael’s character and past actions to deflect from their own actions in 2009. They have blamed a Jackson for their actions since this suit has been filed; namely Michael. It is not surprising when those who support AEG being found not liable blame Michael and other Jacksons as well.

Tygger;3908510 said:
Elapentela, repeating, Michael’s insomnia did not resurface until April and the insurance evaluation was in February. Michael did NOT fabricate his answers during that evaluation. I am unsure why you insist that he did.

I think you don't follow the views of general public opinion about possible results of this trial and the total lack of advertisement deals in future for an estate (because of the "new" addict image) is not your concern.

Elapentela, you are referring to the general public without a chart, graph, or survey being requested. No need to fret, no one will request one.

Ironic that AEG is supposed to have noticed a deterioration that his own mother and father did not notice or if they did, did nothing about.

Jamba, none of the numerous emails to AEG executives about Michael’s visible deterioration were sent to Michael’s parents.
 
Last edited:
What Putnam said about Michael made me angry. But I can't blame him. I'm sorry. But I blame Katherine for this mess. This case did nothing except make Michael look terrible yet again as if Murray had never been in the picture. This would never have happened if Katherine had just left Michael alone to rest in peace, in my opinion. I can only feel sorry for her for the loss of Michael. Nothing else.
 
Last edited:
Tygger;3908864 said:
Putnam is truly gifted. I agree much of what he said made logical sense however, it lacked depth as did AEG's defense. Putnam understands it is not what is said, it is how it is said. The jurors have access to the evidence. Matching evidence to many of Putnam statements will disprove them and I hope the jurors take the time to do just that.

Putnam said Dileo signed a declaration that he viewed an employment contract draft for the doctor. He stated this proves Michael’s team saw a draft. Beneath the surface of that statement, Putnam gives no evidence of which draft Dileo saw, if Dileo saw each draft as there were a few, if Dileo spoke to Michael about it or only saw a draft, and lastly and most importantly, if anyone else on Michael’s team, particularly one of his lawyers saw any and all drafts which would not be the final copy that was emailed directly to the doctor for his signature.

Putnam said Michael died of a propofol overdose and that it was inevitable. AEG could not prove Michael was a propofol addict yet, they suggest it and some may find it logical. Beneath the surface of that statement, Putnam refused to mention the doctor serving two years for involuntary manslaughter for his negligent administration of propofol. Propofol did not cause Michael’s passing, the negligent administration of it did. It was not inevitable that Michael would pass from the negligent administration of propofol.

Putnam said Michael paid the doctor ten times before he passed. Beneath the surface of that statement, the doctor was paid in Vegas more so than in Carolwood, before Michael signed the TII contract, and often included the general care of Michael’s children, not for the administration of propofol.

Putnam dodged instances of AEG having any possible responsibility whatsoever when they inserted themselves into the doctor-patient relationship. All onuses were placed squarely on Michael’s shoulders. He repeated Michael hired the doctor with no substance behind it; just a directive statement to the jurors to accept blindly when AEG never touched this ideal once during their defense.

The written contract that was not valid because it lacked two signatures should have its clauses considered valid when those clauses might benefit AEG. Putnam was extremely fond of the indemnity clause and the "general care" phrase in a contract that is not valid. For Putnam, an implied contract did not exist and a relationship between AEG and the doctor did not exist despite evidence (including conversations and emails) contradicting him. The implied contract does not take into account the indemnity clause or the "general care" phrase as it relies on verbal clues and actions.



Elapentela, allow me to repost my statement again. If the evaluation was in February and Michael found he could not sleep the following April, how could he honestly state he had sleep issues in February during the insurance evaluation if he did not? Should he predict he may not be able to sleep in July? When he found he could not sleep in April, how many medical professionals did he reach out to as per testimony? Was he fabricating his insomnia to any of those medical professionals then? Was he keeping his insomnia a secret then?

As for the remainder of your post, AEG decided on their defense which included besmirching Michael’s character and past actions to deflect from their own actions in 2009. They have blamed a Jackson for their actions since this suit has been filed; namely Michael. It is not surprising when those who support AEG being found not liable blame Michael and other Jacksons as well.





Elapentela, you are referring to the general public without a chart, graph, or survey being requested. No need to fret, no one will request one.



Jamba, none of the numerous emails to AEG executives about Michael’s visible deterioration were sent to Michael’s parents.

I have only one comment: your arguments lack of substance... maybe one day you will find yourself being accused of something you had nothing to do with. Then maybe, just maybe you will start to understand.
 
Mneme, All Good did come up with the email between Phillips and Branca so it was not forbidden; it simply did not have relevance. Michael himself said his stress was from the TII tour.

Annita, I would like to see Dileo declaration as well. I would like to see proof Michael's legal team, who would advise him regarding the three party conflicted interest contract, did indeed see it.

Last Tear, AEG believes there was no written contract and that is correct; it was implied. Putnam suggested in closing that the jury review the indemnity clause that would protect them as the third party against the doctor's actions. Putnam would like the jury to see the non-executed written contract's indemnity clause as a valid clause in the implied contract but it was not discussed explicitly there.

The same with the "general care" phrase. Putnam wants the jurors to believe the doctor was fit for general care as per the non-executed written contract however; the doctor was not performing general care duties. In the implied contract, the doctor did what was necessary to ensure Michael showed up for rehearsal although he was not qualified to do what was necessary.

Putnam wants the jurors to believe AEG would have no foresight to be suspicious of the doctor however Gongaware spoke with two of Michael's tour doctors who forewarned him about Michael's health issues on tour. Previous tour doctors dealt with Michael's addiction and sleep issues in an non-ethical manner on two successive tours. Gongaware had to assure Finkelstein Michael was clean for TII as Finkelstein remembered what happened on the Dangerous tour. Gongaware and Phillips testified to not remembering discussing Michael's sleep issues for TII.

'It was implied' - 'Statements made by attorneys are not evidence or testimony.

^Not sure why putnam made a thing about being unaware of mj's thinness. Aeg can't deny they thought mj was thin as they were discussing the need for a nutritionist. Mj losing 8/9lb per perf (?), made his weight an issue for a long tour.



Where in the jury instructions does it say that q2 refers to 'at the point he was hired' - i didn't see that or have you just added those words yourself.

It was an answer to your post, my words, not a quote. The jury shouldnt take into account hindsight, so therefore was Murray competent to carry out general medical needs.
 
I suppose Panish is not going to take all day, maybe few hours for his rebuttal?
Then the case goes to jury and they start deliberation today, and if there is 4 jurors who think AEG is not responsible of CM, then we might have verdict today.
 
After listening to the AEG closing I'm even more disappointed at Jacksons. Their greed totally destroyed the chance of improving Michael's image for general public consumption. Whatever he was doing in privacy of his bedrooms or doctor's offices he was doing it with dignity keeping it private. Even as an "addict" he still was able to work hard and support his children, his mother and other Jacksons. We absolutely did not need to hear about all the details which came to the light during this trial. At least not so soon after his death. It will take a long time when his name will be mention by presidents or any business advertisements. This trial didn't present Michael Jackson as a role model for sure and I don't blame AEG for this. They are not the ones who started to promote "the addict" image, they just followed Jacksons clues.

You are exaggerating. Even if the general public believes he was an addict that does not make him unsuited for "general public consumtion". If that would be the case people should throw out 90% of their CDs and DVDs because many pop/rock stars and actors had/have issues with drugs. It's something that belongs to showbusiness in the public's mind. And Michael's drug use was not using recreational drugs anyway. Actually it was pretty well established during this trial that he did have underlying medical issues and did not use drugs just to get high. The most damaging thing to Michael's image is not anything anyone can say about his drug use but the false child abuse allegations. Most of the general public could not care less about the AEG trial.
 
Zakk;3908841 said:
it's fairly safe to say that from the facts proven today is that Michael has been in associates with Michael first since he was hired to be the family doctor in 06', we also learn that Michael has been taking propofol for more than 20 years, requesting it from many different doctors and most of the time being rejected.. after these rejections Michael didn't have any contact with most of them. So, AEG insisted on allowing Murray to be Michael's doctor on this Tour, Murray said he would give Michael Propofol for the Tour, his other doctors (past friends) said "no." also let's bring in the evidence that Michael asked for this knowing that he could die, surely AEG should have done something to ensure that Michael was being given the best standard of care with minimal risk of death. which should have been done by them monitoring the job that Murray had been doing on Michael.

anyway, it's been a long day! night guys :)

Where are you getting this from? AEG certainly didn't insist on Murray, in fact they didn't want him and tried to convince Mike to get a London doctor. And when did Murray say he would be giving MJ propofol? You make it sound as if he announced it to AEG when that obviously wasn't the case.

Tygger;3908864 said:
Jamba, none of the numerous emails to AEG executives about Michael’s visible deterioration were sent to Michael’s parents.

I know I'm not Jamba, but Michael's parents saw him with their own eyes a few times in those last months, with Katheirne seeing him 11 days before he died. Katherine also spoke with Phillips about the tour schedule and her and Joe met with him on May 18 to discuss dollar/euro payment. Again no mention of MJ's health. They didn't need emails, they saw him with their own eyes and didn't think anything was wrong.
 
I suppose Panish is not going to take all day, maybe few hours for his rebuttal?
Then the case goes to jury and they start deliberation today, and if there is 4 jurors who think AEG is not responsible of CM, then we might have verdict today.

I am wondering what he will say in rebuttal?
 
They said Panish will have 2 hours of rebuttal. So it looks like the jury will get the case this afternoon. That would only leave them with 2-3 hrs maximum for today.
 
Aquarius you should try to look at it. Putnam was very good in explaining what the plaintiffs HAD to prove. I saw the difference in just reading a selection of tweets vs looking at evidence that relates to specific issues from the jury instructions. We saw Panish's side and now we have Putnam's side, so it is very easy to see the strengths and weaknesses. Now let's see what the jury will think.

Gee I wish I could be at the Jackson's meeting tonight. I wonder if Randy will tweet?

Where can I watch it?

On Tues. HLN showed a good portion of Panish;s closing but the comments here showed Putnam did a better job, but HLN didn't show him, only little bits.

Well, at the Jackson's meeting, Randy's siblings are going to see him growing green hair. They have to climb from the cloud they're sitting on,see the facts and realize that what they're doing is wrong. AEG had nothing to do with Michael's decision and if they think that AEG, as a business, was to take care of Michael, what their responsibility was, as a family, towards Michael.

Is there any possibility that the Guardian Ad-Litem might show in court & request, if AEG loses, that the kids' portion be placed on a trust acct & not being touched until they are adults?
 
they used the 1993 demo dubbed version of the earth song rehearsal from the movie, and the dubbed version of they don't care about us.. meaning that panish might have to screen the raw footage to prove his points!
 
they used the 1993 demo dubbed version of the earth song rehearsal from the movie, and the dubbed version of they don't care about us.. meaning that panish might have to screen the raw footage to prove his points!

they don't have the raw footage - or at least as far as I know . Sony only allowed them to watch it in their headquarters and by september 17 they hadn't produced anything.

I'm failing to see why this is so important, as far as I can see/read Putnam has said Michael sometimes sing and sometimes doesn't and a track is used when he is not singing. he told the jury they would see his lips not moving - aka not singing. he also stated that michael did not sing live and danced at the same time. he explicitly showed a short video and said "this is where he sings live". so he did not claim thriller or earth song to be live singing.

and Michael singing live or not is truly a side topic in this case which is all about "was murray negligently hired by AEG"
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top