Latest on MJJC

Why was everything out of place/wrong with Invincible?

PurpleThriller said:
Would a perfectionist include a song like You are my life or Privacy on his album?0-0
Click to expand...
Every artist writes bad songs and releases middling albums, even artists as incredible as MJ. As much as I love his catalog, I could easily name 1-2 songs per album that (in my opinion) shouldn’t have made the cut. That’s just how it is.
 
The album had too many sucky songs on it like The lost Children ( ffs) , Dont Walk Away which was terrible , Heartbreaker which was just an unhearable mess. Butterflies was amazing. Most of the album simply was crap
 
AlwaysThere said:
Every artist writes bad songs and releases middling albums, even artists as incredible as MJ. As much as I love his catalog, I could easily name 1-2 songs per album that (in my opinion) shouldn’t have made the cut. That’s just how it is.
Click to expand...
well true,but invincible seemed to be full of that kind of songs (in my opinion)
 
PurpleThriller said:
Would a perfectionist include a song like You are my life or Privacy on his album?0-0
Click to expand...
If either one of these songs has a very particular and special meaning to that perfectionist, as these two both do, then yes, definitely.

Some people might consider some of Michael's output as subpar - doesn't mean that he himself did as well, at least not in the moment when the choice was made to put these "lesser tracks" on the respective albums.
 
dethorro said:
If either one of these songs has a very particular and special meaning to that perfectionist, as these two both do, then yes, definitely.

Some people might consider some of Michael's output as subpar - doesn't mean that he himself did as well, at least not in the moment when the choice was made to put these "lesser tracks" on the respective albums.
Click to expand...
true tho
 
Invincible would be the magnum opus for any other artist. But since it came from the man who gave five absolute masterclasses of production, songwriting, and creativity, it falls short. I don’t think there’s anything terrible on it, but about half the album is just okay, whereas the other half is brilliant.

Also, I won’t tolerate any “Don’t Walk Away” slander. It’s gorgeous top to bottom. Direct the hate to the song that truly deserves it: “Heaven Can Wait.”
 
AlwaysThere said:
Also, I won’t tolerate any “Don’t Walk Away” slander. It’s gorgeous top to bottom. Direct the hate to the song that truly deserves it: “Heaven Can Wait.”
Click to expand...
I agree. Don’t Walk Away is probably the most traditional, mature song on the album. It’s a song that would have fit on a Motown album from the late 70’s. There are no gimmicks, just a strong melody, well performed.

Heaven Can Wait sounds like a B-side off a Brandy CD.
 
That’s another good point - a lot of the songs on this album are truly beautiful.

I think my criticisms would be that it’s too ballad heavy and the opening 3 are far too similar. It’s a very good album, by anyone’s standards.
 
AlwaysThere said:
Invincible would be the magnum opus for any other artist. But since it came from the man who gave five absolute masterclasses of production, songwriting, and creativity, it falls short. I don’t think there’s anything terrible on it, but about half the album is just okay, whereas the other half is brilliant.

Also, I won’t tolerate any “Don’t Walk Away” slander. It’s gorgeous top to bottom. Direct the hate to the song that truly deserves it: “Heaven Can Wait.”
Click to expand...
https://i.gifer.com/3l0L.gif

Me about slander Don't Walk Away even though @AlwaysThere is one of my favourite members

Nah seriously I think the one of the biggest problems for Invincible, was Mike was away for so long that he was playing catch up with what was trending, the problem was music changed a lot between 1997 and 2001. You can hear it in the different styles in the outtakes from the album

For one of the first times in his career Mike was following and not leading, you can hear it throughout Invincible

Imagine how groundbreaking Invincible would have been had Mike tried to bring back real musicians playing real instruments and go against the trend of the early 2000's. Get rid of technology and bring back real musicianship, which would have suited him and his age at this time.

Remind the world why the new generation are copying Michael Jackson
 
mj_frenzy said:
Also, some of the album's songs that have been described as highlights (like, 'Break Of Dawn', 'Butterflies') are nothing more than generic, formulaic and uninspired RnB mid-tempo tracks.
Click to expand...

Disagree. These 2 are some of the best vocals on the album. Butterflies itself went as high as number 2 of the Billboard R&B charts with no promotion from Sony.
 
Prince Of Pop said:
Sure they would. Michael put Girlfriend on Off The Wall, and that's by far one of the worst songs he ever agreed to do. McCartney should have kept that for him and his band Wings. Even his version sucks.
Click to expand...
Michael also thought “Just Good Friends” was the best choice for a duet with Stevie f***king Wonder. He also originally suggested Barbra Streisand for “I Just Can’t Stop Loving You.” He also chose to use slurs in “They Don’t Care About Us” (which I understand the intent behind, but the execution was poor).

The man was a genius, but even geniuses can have bad ideas from time to time.
 
We could make an entire forum with all the threads about 'what went wrong' with Invincible lol. I think the answer is simple - He bought into the idea that he was out of touch with the market, and put the album too much in other peoples hands.
 
SmoothGangsta said:
It hasn't even been confirmed that MJ was referencing TUC during that speech and I don't think he was.
Click to expand...
AlwaysThere said:
Teddy was referring to the master recordings of his tracks for Invincible. At that point, recording had gone on for nearly four years and Mottola was getting fed up with mounting costs, and he was demanding that producers and engineers turn it all over. The same thing happened during the recording of Dangerous — Teddy was told, “No more delays. Do not record one more song.”

As for his Killer Thriller speech, as SmoothGangsta said, MJ referred to an unnamed compilation album. It sounds a lot more akin to Number Ones than The Ultimate Collection.

MJ’s personal image was already widely damaged due to the events of 1993 onward; I can’t imagine he was too concerned with what the tabloids said, given that they’d twist anything against him. His catalog was another thing entirely. I don’t believe for one second that he’d purposefully release a low quality album to “stick it to Sony,” especially since Invincible was his fastest-selling album worldwide since Dangerous before all promotion was pulled.

Again, you’re pulling things out of thin air and changing the context of quotes to fit a narrative you’ve created. As is tradition.
Click to expand...
Michael Jackson at that London event specifically spoke about an upcoming box set.

'The Ultimate Collection' is a box set, not the 'Number Ones' which is just a greatest hits album.
Prince Of Pop said:
Disagree. These 2 are some of the best vocals on the album. Butterflies itself went as high as number 2 of the Billboard R&B charts with no promotion from Sony.
Click to expand...
Big chart success means nothing about how good a song is.

For example, 'The Girl Is Mine' or 'You Are Not Alone' both achieved big chart success at the time of their release, although they are regarded as two of his weakest songs from his entire catalogue.

Also, in 'Butterflies' he adopts a vocal style that does not really suit him, while in 'Break Of Dawn' his voice sounds rather strenuous and forced.
 
Hollywood Tonight is not in the same league as Billie Jean or Who Is It, not anywhere near IMO

Its been said before, music is subjective, for every one person who hates Invincible, it is another's favourite, so I don't think an opinion of worst album etc would be perceived the same by everyone.

I agree with the opening 3 probably being the wrong selection, I would have liked those spaced out.

I think a lot of feelings towards Invincible and Outtakes is because we didn't get them, had MJ put Shout on instead of 2000 Watts, then when everyone heard a 2000 Watts outtake over Shout they would want that on the album instead, its because a lot of the time we are used to the songs and love anything new.

Could the album have been stronger? I think so, I think 3/4 changes would have made the album better, but ultimately MJ OK'd the final track list and I'm OK with that.

I think one of the MASSIVE issues with Invincible was 1/ Promotion and 2/ Michael Jackson - What I mean by that is back in 2001 it was more fashionable to dislike MJ for the sake of disliking him, comparing his music to his own catalogue, his lack of media presence/public appearances didn't put him in the spotlight and the album sort of just came out. No Statue down the Thames, no concerts (aside from 30th anniversary)

If you took 4 tracks on Dangerous and replaced them with 4 tracks from Invincible (for arguments sake lets say CLHGA, SDMW, Gone Too Soon and WYWTOM and swapped them with Unbreakable, Heaven Can Wait, 2000 Watts and Threatened) then Dangerous still would have sold the same amount and Invincible would have performed the same as all

I genuinely believe a lot of Invincible promotion and success was around Michael Jackson simply being less relevant.
 
Prince Of Pop said:
Butterflies itself went as high as number 2 of the Billboard R&B charts with no promotion from Sony.
Click to expand...
Butterflies is emblematic of the problem with Invincible. It's a nice song, but there's nothing MJ about it. He didn't write it. It wasn't written for him. He took the song as is from the original writers and performers and just replicated the vocal line, changing nothing. The nice adlibs at the end are not even done by him. It's like when he was on Motown and he was given songs to sing: sure, sometimes they were good songs, and he sang them well, but they could have been done just as well by any other talented studio singer, and they would have sounded just the same. That is not what I wanted from Michael Jackson in 2001.
 
SmoothCriminal1995 said:
For one of the first times in his career Mike was following and not leading, you can hear it throughout Invincible
Click to expand...
It's a myth among fans that MJ was a trend-setter, musically. All of his albums follow the trends that were hot at the time they were recorded, from pop-disco with Off the Wall to synth-heavy 80's production with Bad to New Jack Swing with Dangerous. What set those albums apart was not the production, it was what MJ himself brought to the table: his voice, his songwriting, his idiosyncracies, his hee-hees and whoo-hoos and yelps and hiccups, his lyrics, etc.

That's what is missing most of all from Invincible.
 
kreen said:
Butterflies is emblematic of the problem with Invincible. It's a nice song, but there's nothing MJ about it. He didn't write it. It wasn't written for him. He took the song as is from the original writers and performers and just replicated the vocal line, changing nothing. The nice adlibs at the end are not even done by him. It's like when he was on Motown and he was given songs to sing: sure, sometimes they were good songs, and he sang them well, but they could have been done just as well by any other talented studio singer, and they would have sounded just the same. That is not what I wanted from Michael Jackson in 2001.
Click to expand...
kreen said:
It's a myth among fans that MJ was a trend-setter, musically. All of his albums follow the trends that were hot at the time they were recorded, from pop-disco with Off the Wall to synth-heavy 80's production with Bad to New Jack Swing with Dangerous. What set those albums apart was not the production, it was what MJ himself brought to the table: his voice, his songwriting, his idiosyncracies, his hee-hees and whoo-hoos and yelps and hiccups, his lyrics, etc.

That's what is missing most of all from Invincible.
Click to expand...
Gotta disagree with BOTH of these points.

The songwriter is irrelevant. Plenty of MJ’s most renowned hits (“Rock with You,” “Thriller,” “Man in the Mirror”) weren’t written by him. Some weren’t even originally written with him in mind (“She’s Out of My Life,” “Gone Too Soon”) and just happened to fall into his lap. Quality can be debated, but I don’t think it’s sensible to suggest that the writer or even the extent to which he changed it matters.

Also, MJ wasn’t a trend-setter? Am I reading that right? His genre-bending, his sound design, his vocal arrangements, his sonic textures weren’t groundbreaking? No NJS album sounds like Dangerous, no hip-hop album sounds like HIStory, and no synth-pop album sounds like Bad (at least none that came before them). I won’t say that he was completely original, but to suggest that he didn’t change pop music with his boundless creativity is an INSANE argument.
 
AlwaysThere said:
Also, MJ wasn’t a trend-setter? Am I reading that right? His genre-bending, his sound design, his vocal arrangements, his sonic textures weren’t groundbreaking?
Click to expand...
He was a trendsetter in personal style, in his singing style, in his persona, in his choice of dance moves, etc. Like with Elvis, anybody can try even the least accurate impersonation of MJ and people will immediately recognize who you’re trying to imitate. But he always went with the sound and production that was hot at the time. Listen to any of his album, including the Motown ones, and his stuff with the Jacksons, and you always get a perfect snapshot of what was popular commercially at the time. Of course you can point to individual songs that were just MJ doing his own thing, like Childhood, but the idea that he initiated any of the production styles that are predominant on any one of his records is plainly false, if one knows what was popular on the charts at the time.

And that’s allright. MJ was a commercial artist who wanted blockbuster records. He wanted hit singles on the charts, and you do this by going after the sound that’s hot. Nothing wrong with that, and in fact MJ wouldn’t have been as big as he was if he hadn’t done that.

With Invincible, the choice of the Darkchild team made sense, as they were popular at the time. I don’t remember anybody being disappointed with that choice when it was announced in the build-up to the announcement of the new album. The beats Rodney and co. contributed are good, but the songs that are built on them are awful, with the exception of You Rock My World. Had MJ come up with some amazing, MJ-level vocal hooks, grooves like the one for Unbreakable or Invincible (the song) could have worked wonders.
 
mj_frenzy said:
For example, 'The Girl Is Mine' or 'You Are Not Alone' both achieved big chart success at the time of their release, although they are regarded as two of his weakest songs from his entire catalogue.
Click to expand...

YANA considered one of MJ's weakest songs?? - By whom? Not the general public. I often hear that song on the radio - there are other great MJ songs I never hear. - I don't think I have ever, not once, heard Who Is It or Keep The Faith on the radio. But YANA, yeah - often.

I agree there may have been too many people involved in the making of Invincible. - It went in too many directions.

But I do not agree at all that You Are My Life, The Lost Children and Don't Walk Away are bad songs..??! - I really like them a lot. And IMO they have both great production and vocals. - YAML is a very personal song for MJ to his children I think - it could have been released as a b-side to a single. But I am glad the song is released.

The malancholic rhythm of Don't Walk Away - I don't know many other songs that can make me sad and happy at the same time like DWA can. So longing, so sad. Great song.

I do not like Privacy - but I do understand (though I may not agree) why MJ wanted the song on the album. - Like earlier albums he wanted a song that told the press off. Not new, not great. But I do understand why MJ wanted to release (yet another) song about the tabloids. They were so cruel and mean to him. So why not hit back the way he could - thru his music. - Could have been released as a b-se to a single too.
 
Hess said:
YANA considered one of MJ's weakest songs?? - By whom? Not the general public.
Click to expand...
YANA is great song, it shows off his vocals. I love the high note towards the end, absolutely love the song.

Hess said:
The malancholic rhythm of Don't Walk Away - I don't know many other songs that can make me sad and happy at the same time like DWA can. So longing, so sad. Great song.
Click to expand...
Another one of those that show off Michael's full control on his voice. I can feel the conflicted emotions in the voice, sadness, longing, with just a hint of acceptance.

And yes, don't really like Privacy but know why it's there. It does feel like Michael might have overplayed his hand there.

Overall, I have begun to really love a somewhat trimmed version of the album with just a couple of songs removed.
 
I will agree that normally when I listen to MJ's albums I start from the beginning and hear the album all the way thru without skipping og pressing next to cut a long ending. - BOTDF I never ever listen to the remixes, but the new songs are all masterpieces and very different. Great songs.

BUT - on Invincible I always press next after 2-3 minutes of the first couple of songs, there are songs I totally skip, 2000 Watts and Privacy, and there are a few songs that drag on way too long so I press the next bottom to skip the long ending.

So while that may suggest that Invincible is not as strong an album as the rest, I still really really enjoy the album. - Some songs should have been trimmed, they are way too long.

Unbreakable - OK, but too long and too repetitive in the end. - I skip the ending. 6:25 could have been 4 minutes.
Heartbreaker - OK, but too long and too repetitive in the end. - I skip the ending. 5:10 could have been 3:30 minutes.
Invincible - OK, but too long and too repetitive in the end. - I skip the ending. 4:45 could have been 4 minutes.
Break of Dawn - OK, but too long and too repetitive in the end. - I skip the ending. 5:32 could have been 4 minutes.
Heaven can Wait - Great song - but could also have been trimmed a little. - the ending is more than 2 minutes with just the same.
You Rock My World - Great great song. - The intro is annoying and I would have liked if that was not part of the song.
Butterflies - Great song. 4:40 is OK I guess, but it is also a bit repetitive. Great vocals.
Speechless - Absolutely perfect song. The chorus is repeted a few times at the end, but it's a bit different each time. Perfect ending. Best song.
2000 Watts. - Skip every time. - nothing I like about it really.
You Are My Life - sweet song. Length OK I guess.
Privacy - Skip it almost every time.
Don't Walk Away - I really like the song. 4:25 is OK I guess, could have been trimmed to 3:30 without taking anyting from the experience.
Cry - I like the song. Anthem. I know many don't, but I like it actually. But too long. Trim it a minute.
The Lost Children - Perfect as it is. 4 minutes is fine. I like both the beginning and the end.
Whatever Happens - Absolutely perfect as it is.
Threatened - absolutely perfect as it is.
 
Hess said:
Break of Dawn - OK, but too long and too repetitive in the end. - I skip the ending. 5:32 could have been 4 minutes.
Click to expand...
No way!!!! :) But I am guessing my reasons for the love of this song are different from yours.
Hess said:
You Rock My World
Click to expand...
Agree Intro does not work without the video. I have a trimmed version on my phone.
Hess said:
2000 Watts. - Skip every time. - nothing I like about it really.
Click to expand...
I skip it about 50% of the time, depending on my mood.
Hess said:
Privacy - Skip it almost every time.
Click to expand...
Skip it every time. Don't even have it on my customised copy on phone

Hess said:
The Lost Children - Perfect as it is. 4 minutes is fine. I like both the beginning and the end
Click to expand...
Not fond of this song, skip it most of the time. Can't say what's wrong with it.
 
kreen said:
It's a myth among fans that MJ was a trend-setter, musically. All of his albums follow the trends that were hot at the time they were recorded, from pop-disco with Off the Wall to synth-heavy 80's production with Bad to New Jack Swing with Dangerous. What set those albums apart was not the production, it was what MJ himself brought to the table: his voice, his songwriting, his idiosyncracies, his hee-hees and whoo-hoos and yelps and hiccups, his lyrics, etc.

That's what is missing most of all from Invincible.
Click to expand...
It was reported at that time that Sony Music's top executives wanted to create a totally new image for Michael Jackson.

For that reason, they hired fashion designers in order to give him a new look (no more long curls, boots, arm bands, etc).

Also they gave specific orders to producers who were working with the singer on the 'Invincible' album.

Among others, Michael Jackson (for that album) was also forced to minimize his vocal trademark hiccups which by that time had already begun to sound like relics from the past (hee hee's, whoo's, au's, etc).
Hess said:
YANA considered one of MJ's weakest songs?? - By whom? Not the general public. I often hear that song on the radio - there are other great MJ songs I never hear. - I don't think I have ever, not once, heard Who Is It or Keep The Faith on the radio. But YANA, yeah - often.

I agree there may have been too many people involved in the making of Invincible. - It went in too many directions.

But I do not agree at all that You Are My Life, The Lost Children and Don't Walk Away are bad songs..??! - I really like them a lot. And IMO they have both great production and vocals. - YAML is a very personal song for MJ to his children I think - it could have been released as a b-side to a single. But I am glad the song is released.

The malancholic rhythm of Don't Walk Away - I don't know many other songs that can make me sad and happy at the same time like DWA can. So longing, so sad. Great song.

I do not like Privacy - but I do understand (though I may not agree) why MJ wanted the song on the album. - Like earlier albums he wanted a song that told the press off. Not new, not great. But I do understand why MJ wanted to release (yet another) song about the tabloids. They were so cruel and mean to him. So why not hit back the way he could - thru his music. - Could have been released as a b-se to a single too.
Click to expand...
'You Are My Life' has an inherent problem.

Although it is lyrically an optimistic song, Michael Jackson sings it with a slightly sad voice.

'Privacy' should not have been included on the album.

Lyrically it sounds rehashed, vocally it sounds weird with his overly processed and mechanical voice, while in terms of production the use of the camera's flash sounds throughout the song becomes annoying.
 
PurpleThriller said:
That tracklist(for Invincible) was pure sh#t.
Then came the horrible September 7th show.(the first show of the 30th Anniversary special. It is maybe his worst performance)
Then he organized that charity show where he performed only 2 songs at the end of the entire thing....and he didn't perform one single song from the official Invincible album.
Not to mention he released the album too close to the 9/11 tragedy: he could have released it on Christmas or November(with the tracklist being changed)
Then he didn't want to shoot any other video for the album aside You Rock My World.
Then no more official singles after Cry were released(Butterflies only went to the radio)
Then he got the chance to promote his new album at the Apollo 2002 show....where he performed 3 songs ,all from an 11 year old album at the time (Dangerous). Not one single song from Invincible....
Then instead of promoting Invincible or doing another album he went after Sony and sounded like a Karen at some points.
In my view Mike ruined his career during the 2001-2003 period. Bit by bit ,he ruined it all.
Click to expand...
I was at the charity concert where Michael only performed a few songs at the end. Unfortunately the concert was cut short because the concert was taking longer than planned and the local subway system had to close down. If they didn't end the concert early, thousands of people would have been stranded.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top