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The Discussion of MJ's Unreleased Tracks

Andymachine said:
Even Serious Effect sounds crap to me. Bryan Loren tracks are really dull and repetitive . Man in Black sounds like a NKOTB song , Work that Body and She Got it another pair of boring songs which are ultra dated now for a future release unless they make a " The Out takes " album which of course will never happen . Teddy Riley is one of the driving forces which made Dangerous such a success , MJ obviously as well lol . Loren seems to be a one trick pony with his songs , which mainly are boring apart from one song SuperFly Sister which is brilliant but i have a feeling MJ had more to do with that than Loren. I remember when people were wondering about Men in Black and thinking it was some sorta holy grail and when we finally heard it most of us thought "oh is that it? " lol .
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Man In Black sounds very similar to Do The Bartman to me. Both tracks even have the same bass lick at the end.
 
zinniabooklover said:
Hm, interesting. I liked Smallcombe's book to start off with but got increasingly fed-up with it as I went along. It's another one I read years ago and haven't gone back to. I keep meaning to. I thought he really ran out of steam as the book progressed and it became more - I wouldn't say 'tabloidy' but, I dunno, more superficial? There is some great stuff in there and I think it complements the Vogel book quite well. I don't think either of them work perfectly on their own and I'm glad I have both. I do need to re-read Smallcombe.
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That’s very fair. Smallcombe’s book is less about the music and more about the entirety of MJ’s career, which comes with a lot of ups and downs. I personally appreciated that he was unashamed to dive into the darker elements, but always tried to evenly weigh it with commentary from observers rather than try to push the reader in any one direction. But I think your perspective is the best: the Smallcombe and Vogel books complement one another well.
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
Now let's not rewrite history. All the Bryan Tracks would sound crazy right after Bad, or even instead of it, idk, it would not sound so out of place. More honestly it just sounds, organic. MJ is flowing and having fun.

Of course Teddy's stuff is better, the goal was to make more modern dance R&B music. BL's stuff is kinda just pop/funk tunes like Black or White.

I'll take any of the Bryan Loren tracks over Slave to the Rhythm tbh, now that's a boring song.
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Yeah, I like the Loren tracks enough. “Superfly Sister,” “She Got It,” and “Serious Effect” specifically are great. I wouldn’t say I’m dying to hear more, but they’re better than I remember them being. And yeah, the demo of “Slave to the Rhythm” is terribly mediocre. I’m astonished MJ saw anything in it. The Justin Bieber remix (and elements of the Timbaland one) actually bring it to life.
 
AlwaysThere said:
That’s very fair. Smallcombe’s book is less about the music and more about the entirety of MJ’s career, which comes with a lot of ups and downs.
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Let me return the favour! Your comment re Smallcombe's book is very fair. I definitely need to read it again. And it does have it's strengths plus I appreciate what he was trying to achieve and the effort that went into it. It's frustrating looking at the list of people who declined to be interviewed by him. I do understand Rod Temperton wanting to live a quiet, private life but, selfishly, I can't help wishing he had said yes to the request. Especially with Smallcombe being British.

AlwaysThere said:
I personally appreciated that he was unashamed to dive into the darker elements,
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Yes. I do think that's important. There is a need to look at Michael and his life and career with a clear eye. No need to be all tabloidy. That's unnecessary and unacceptable. But a balanced look at the facts of Michael's life - as long as it's done calmly and respectfully, I don't have a problem with that.

AlwaysThere said:
but always tried to evenly weigh it with commentary from observers rather than try to push the reader in any one direction.
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Yes, he does try to stay out of the reader's way, IIRC. It was years ago that I read it. I need to go and dig it out.

AlwaysThere said:
But I think your perspective is the best: the Smallcombe and Vogel books complement one another well.
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They really do. For me, anyway.
 
Hollywood_Tonight said:
the production isn’t good because it’s a demo lol
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Not an excuse imo. Most MJ demos sound fantastic even in an unfinished state—Fall Again, Beautiful Girl, Cheater, I’m So Blue, Free, Loving You, DYKWYCA, I Am a Loser, Days in Gloucestershire, Serious Effect, so on and so forth. Slave to the Rhythm is just very boring on a compositional and production level. MJ’s singing is the saving grace.
 
AlwaysThere said:
The lyrics are alright and his vocals are top notch, but the production is terrible. It feels like a Madonna reject.
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What Hollywood said, plus the fact that Babyface and LA Reid's productions are usually top-notch (see their production on Bobby Brown's album), making its status as an unfinished demo all the more obvious.
 
SeriousFX said:
What Hollywood said, plus the fact that Babyface and LA Reid's productions are usually top-notch (see their production on Bobby Brown's album), making its status as an unfinished demo all the more obvious.
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They’re great, but everyone has misses. I dunno, I don’t hear it and think, “There’s something special here.” It just feels very do-nothing.
 
AlwaysThere said:
Not an excuse imo. Most MJ demos sound fantastic even in an unfinished state—Fall Again, Beautiful Girl, Cheater, I’m So Blue, Free, Loving You, DYKWYCA, I Am a Loser, Days in Gloucestershire, Serious Effect, so on and so forth. Slave to the Rhythm is just very boring on a compositional and production level. MJ’s singing is the saving grace.
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Sure, but She Was Lovin Me, In the Back, She Got It, etc. are real incomplete though. Depends on the demo and how much it was worked on.
 
Hollywood_Tonight said:
Sure, but She Was Lovin Me, In the Back, She Got It, etc. are real incomplete though. Depends on the demo and how much it was worked on.
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True, but at least the last two songs felt like they had a concrete foundation. In the Back is a fully-fledged music track with a rough vocal. Even She Was Lovin’ Me at least had an atmosphere. Slave to the Rhythm feels amateurish; it’s one of the only songs that I feel needed a remix to be worth listening to. But that’s just my perspective of it.
 
AlwaysThere said:
The lyrics are alright and his vocals are top notch, but the production is terrible. It feels like a Madonna reject.
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It's not Willing and Waiting levels of polished that much we can say.

Add up Timbo polish and it still is just kinda boring melodically. Far less catchy than anything Bad era.
 
Falling Down"Michael Jackson
Bryan Loren
  • One of around 20-25 songs recorded with Bryan Loren during sessions for Dangerous between 1989-1991.
  • Recorded in November 1989.
  • Reworked for "HIStory" and "Invincible
 
Lotfi11k said:
Falling Down"Michael Jackson
Bryan Loren
  • One of around 20-25 songs recorded with Bryan Loren during sessions for Dangerous between 1989-1991.
  • Recorded in November 1989.
  • Reworked for "HIStory" and "Invincible
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I have never seen this song before.
 
Lotfi11k said:
Falling Down"Michael Jackson
Bryan Loren
  • One of around 20-25 songs recorded with Bryan Loren during sessions for Dangerous between 1989-1991.
  • Recorded in November 1989.
  • Reworked for "HIStory" and "Invincible
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Likely fake
 
Shana mangatal told me .call it off MJ sung only chorus .all truth you need same .truth about youth only LL cool j who sung and don't believe it have Michael vocals
 
Lotfi11k said:
Falling Down"Michael Jackson
Bryan Loren
  • One of around 20-25 songs recorded with Bryan Loren during sessions for Dangerous between 1989-1991.
  • Recorded in November 1989.
  • Reworked for "HIStory" and "Invincible
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People are just making up song titles at this point lol
 
AlwaysThere said:
True, but at least the last two songs felt like they had a concrete foundation. In the Back is a fully-fledged music track with a rough vocal. Even She Was Lovin’ Me at least had an atmosphere. Slave to the Rhythm feels amateurish; it’s one of the only songs that I feel needed a remix to be worth listening to. But that’s just my perspective of it.
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MJ clearly saw enough potential to record a full vocal. Also, I disagree with In The Back having a fully fledged instrumental.
 
Interesting discussion, thanks guys!

Years ago, I helped Joe Vogel fact-check some of his articles. I just read through some of our old correspondence.

In 2011, he told me:

About Michael's final songs:
Think of it this way: if we are comparing to the Dangerous album, it was still 1990. So think of all that happened in terms of the evolution of Dangerous from 1990 to fall of 91. I Was the Loser could have been a "Serious Effect" or "If You Don't Love Me." MJ rarely made it clear to people what was going to make it or be a single until very late in the process. That being said, it was a song he re-recorded at the Bel-Air hotel in 2008, so he clearly liked it.

About Rodney Jerkins sessions:
I don't know a lot as I haven't heard them. Brad Buxer and John Branca have heard them and told me about some of them. They both told me I was overstating when in an early draft I estimated there were about a dozen unreleased Darkchild tracks. They said it was probably about half of that that are releasable.

About John McClain:
Very little interaction with McClain. Almost all with Jim, Karen, Howard and John. I'd like to talk to him more though as he primarily oversees the music.

About Slave to the Rhythm (at the time, still unreleased. Remix leaked with no context):
John Branca told me the track originated with LA Reid and Babyface, and was later handed over to Jam and Lewis. It could be one of those songs that was kind of passed along to different collaborators during different album sessions (ala They Don't Care About Us, Earth Song, etc) It seems like it was written or co-written by MJ to me as well.

Thought it might be worth sharing here!
 
Alec said:
Interesting discussion, thanks guys!

Years ago, I helped Joe Vogel fact-check some of his articles. I just read through some of our old correspondence.

In 2011, he told me:

About Michael's final songs:
Think of it this way: if we are comparing to the Dangerous album, it was still 1990. So think of all that happened in terms of the evolution of Dangerous from 1990 to fall of 91. I Was the Loser could have been a "Serious Effect" or "If You Don't Love Me." MJ rarely made it clear to people what was going to make it or be a single until very late in the process. That being said, it was a song he re-recorded at the Bel-Air hotel in 2008, so he clearly liked it.

About Rodney Jerkins sessions:
I don't know a lot as I haven't heard them. Brad Buxer and John Branca have heard them and told me about some of them. They both told me I was overstating when in an early draft I estimated there were about a dozen unreleased Darkchild tracks. They said it was probably about half of that that are releasable.

About John McClain:
Very little interaction with McClain. Almost all with Jim, Karen, Howard and John. I'd like to talk to him more though as he primarily oversees the music.

About Slave to the Rhythm (at the time, still unreleased. Remix leaked with no context):
John Branca told me the track originated with LA Reid and Babyface, and was later handed over to Jam and Lewis. It could be one of those songs that was kind of passed along to different collaborators during different album sessions (ala They Don't Care About Us, Earth Song, etc) It seems like it was written or co-written by MJ to me as well.

Thought it might be worth sharing here!
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Thank you so much for sharing this! Honestly I think I Was The Loser might be the only song from the later years we can say that might've ended up on MJ's upcoming album, it's one of the most polished tracks from that time and he clearly showed a great liking for it.
 
Alec said:
About Rodney Jerkins sessions:
I don't know a lot as I haven't heard them. Brad Buxer and John Branca have heard them and told me about some of them. They both told me I was overstating when in an early draft I estimated there were about a dozen unreleased Darkchild tracks. They said it was probably about half of that that are releasable.
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So 6 songs. Xscape has already been released and counting GYWOOM that brings us to 4 songs. If we're generous and count the songs on TUC that brings us to 3 songs. There's a chance that there are 3 more Rodney Jerkins tracks we've never heard of that are in a releasable state.
 
Alec said:
Interesting discussion, thanks guys!

Years ago, I helped Joe Vogel fact-check some of his articles. I just read through some of our old correspondence.

In 2011, he told me:

About Michael's final songs:
Think of it this way: if we are comparing to the Dangerous album, it was still 1990. So think of all that happened in terms of the evolution of Dangerous from 1990 to fall of 91. I Was the Loser could have been a "Serious Effect" or "If You Don't Love Me." MJ rarely made it clear to people what was going to make it or be a single until very late in the process. That being said, it was a song he re-recorded at the Bel-Air hotel in 2008, so he clearly liked it.

About Rodney Jerkins sessions:
I don't know a lot as I haven't heard them. Brad Buxer and John Branca have heard them and told me about some of them. They both told me I was overstating when in an early draft I estimated there were about a dozen unreleased Darkchild tracks. They said it was probably about half of that that are releasable.

About John McClain:
Very little interaction with McClain. Almost all with Jim, Karen, Howard and John. I'd like to talk to him more though as he primarily oversees the music.

About Slave to the Rhythm (at the time, still unreleased. Remix leaked with no context):
John Branca told me the track originated with LA Reid and Babyface, and was later handed over to Jam and Lewis. It could be one of those songs that was kind of passed along to different collaborators during different album sessions (ala They Don't Care About Us, Earth Song, etc) It seems like it was written or co-written by MJ to me as well.

Thought it might be worth sharing here!
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Thank you, sir!

I figured as much re: the Jerkins outtakes. I find it hard to believe that they left behind too many.
 
Alec said:
Interesting discussion, thanks guys!

Years ago, I helped Joe Vogel fact-check some of his articles. I just read through some of our old correspondence.

In 2011, he told me:

About Michael's final songs:
Think of it this way: if we are comparing to the Dangerous album, it was still 1990. So think of all that happened in terms of the evolution of Dangerous from 1990 to fall of 91. I Was the Loser could have been a "Serious Effect" or "If You Don't Love Me." MJ rarely made it clear to people what was going to make it or be a single until very late in the process. That being said, it was a song he re-recorded at the Bel-Air hotel in 2008, so he clearly liked it.

About Rodney Jerkins sessions:
I don't know a lot as I haven't heard them. Brad Buxer and John Branca have heard them and told me about some of them. They both told me I was overstating when in an early draft I estimated there were about a dozen unreleased Darkchild tracks. They said it was probably about half of that that are releasable.

About John McClain:
Very little interaction with McClain. Almost all with Jim, Karen, Howard and John. I'd like to talk to him more though as he primarily oversees the music.

About Slave to the Rhythm (at the time, still unreleased. Remix leaked with no context):
John Branca told me the track originated with LA Reid and Babyface, and was later handed over to Jam and Lewis. It could be one of those songs that was kind of passed along to different collaborators during different album sessions (ala They Don't Care About Us, Earth Song, etc) It seems like it was written or co-written by MJ to me as well.

Thought it might be worth sharing here!
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Thank you very much, it's very interesting! So there would be about 5 unreleased Jerkins songs left... The trunk isn't as full as that in the end.

Have you been able to speak with Joe Vogel since? 🙂
 
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