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The Discussion of MJ's Unreleased Tracks

we have an MJ song (vocals only in the chorus) called Monster. It has nothing to do with Threatened. Rodney was the producer of only the songs he co-wrote. Before I knew about all the BS of the Cascio songs, I brought our Monster for Teddy to hear, because the chorus would have worked with the Cascio version. He didn’t want to use it, and I now know why. - Michael Prince
 
On if Smile and Childhood were recorded the same day.

Without trying to sound funny or snarky, it's a lot harder than it sounds to remember and explain the details and timeline of those projects. At some points we had more than 10 production teams working in nearly a dozen studios on perhaps 40+ grooves and song ideas.
There were early versions, some songs would start with one production team, then migrate to another, etc. It was never quite as cut-and-dry as saying "Today we are going to record Earth Song," because that song started in 1986, but went into serious production in 1994! There were string dates, synth overdubs, choir sessions, BG vocals, scratch vocals, live vocals (ala "Childhood") and lead vocals.
Most of the lead vocals weren't recorded until the final five or six weeks of the project - for any of the songs - so there really is no simple answer to your question - imo. - Brad Sundberg
 
BlackAnon said:
we have an MJ song (vocals only in the chorus) called Monster. It has nothing to do with Threatened. Rodney was the producer of only the songs he co-wrote. Before I knew about all the BS of the Cascio songs, I brought our Monster for Teddy to hear, because the chorus would have worked with the Cascio version. He didn’t want to use it, and I now know why. - Michael Prince
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Where's this quote from?
 
ChanceToDance said:
Where's this quote from?
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In response to Devante from the group Jodeci being the original producer for Invincible

Michael Jackson called DeVante 'a genius'. DeVante was the original producer for Michael Jackson's Invincible album. Michael Jackson spoke to my mother on the telephone and said 'you have a very talented son, we are going to do some wonderful things together!' Devante started production on Michael Jackson's album... I also traveled to St. Louis Missouri to help DeVante with the Michael Jackson album, my job was to sing and arrange the vocal harmonies to give Michael Jackson a guideline when singing the vocals. DeVante never finished the production of Michael Jackson's album because he was being rushed, the producer; Rodney Jerkins finished the production instead. However, Michael Jackson still paid DeVante and Michael kept one song idea by DeVante. The song titled 'Threatened' (on Michael Jackson's invincible album) was originally a song titled 'Monster' which was written and produced by DeVante, Michael kept the basic instrumental pattern DeVante wrote (which was later performed and produced by Rodney Jerkins) and Michael titled the song; 'Threatened'.
 
Song leaks can be unpredictable and random. Do you think a future leak of "He Who Makes the Sky Grey" is unlikely? It's a title that has always interested me, along with the fact that it was conceived in Bahrain.
 
The best chance for a song to leak is if they're recorded from a seminar, those types of recordings aren't as protected as a high-quality recording nor are they as costly. Collectors rarely share the stuff they have given how much of a high investment these songs tend to be, while a seminar recording is passed around more frequently and is more likely to fall in the hands of someone who is more "careless" and eventually get to someone who's willing to leak them.

Speaking of which I still don't know how the seminar snippets from last year haven't leaked, the songs weren't that costly, they were being sold for only 330 euros. Does anyone know exactly what was played at that seminar from 2022? I heard from someone that they played Adore You, GYWOOM and Days In Gloucestershire but never in a million years would I have imagined that they played Water and Michael's Affirmation as well. I lost contact with the person so I can't confirm it with them anymore. Anyone else might know anything?
 
AlwaysThere said:
As far as material we’ve been able to definitively pin down to the Invincible sessions, yeah. But there’s still a handful of demos we haven’t been able to identify a recording date for (“Boy No” and “Don’t Make Me Stay”). Plus, while Damien Shields listed off plenty of instrumentals he’d heard, it’s been demonstrated that the US Copyright registrations don’t always hold the most up-to-date versions of those songs, so it’s possible that updated/later mixes with vocals exist.

I wish someone was able to sit down with Buxer and MP, go through their hard drives, and just confirm/deny everything.
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Don't make me stay and boy no it's not instrumental
 
Sisoqqq said:
Don't make me stay and boy no it's not instrumental
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Sisoqqq said:
Why no one asked about bio
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Nobody said those first two were strictly instrumental. Damien has gone through those multiple times.

Again, Bio has been discussed.

It's healthier to accept that much of what remains - especially the late 2000s material - is incomplete vocally.
 
AlexBoing_BestOfJoy said:
Song leaks can be unpredictable and random. Do you think a future leak of "He Who Makes the Sky Grey" is unlikely? It's a title that has always interested me, along with the fact that it was conceived in Bahrain.
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I'm interested in michael mckeller, Lucy is in love with Linus, & Buffalo Bill
 
Tweet Recaps: BILL BOTTRELL

GENERAL NOTES & OBSERVATIONS
  • According to Bottrell, “weird shit… went down during the latter days at Larrabee” during the Dangerous sessions, but declines to elaborate at this time.
  • Bottrell last collaborated with the estate on Cirque du Soleil’s One in 2011, which he cited as a poor experience, and has not spoken with them since.
  • He finds it “astonishing that [the] MJ fam can expect to listen to any unreleased material… I’m sorry for M[J]. He would not have let this continue.”
  • He has expressed negative sentiments towards Brad Sundberg and his handling and procurement of MJ’s unreleased material.
  • He has no studio footage or photographs.

SPECIFIC SONG NOTES
  • “BUFFALO BILL.” Worked on during the early Bad sessions at Hayvenhurst, though it likely originated “earlier. Victory perhaps.” Described as a “Matt Forger basic track” upon Bottrell’s arrival. Never revisited during the Dangerous sessions, despite contradictory reports.
  • “CHEATER.” Per his session calendars, his memories of working with MJ and Greg Phillinganes, and the sonic characteristics of the released demo, he infers that it was recorded during a “group of sessions” at Soundcastle Studios “during or after Victory [in] ‘84."
  • “CHICAGO 1945.” The setting “gave rise” to the “Smooth Criminal” short film.
  • “CRACK KILLS.” Working title: “Rap Song.” Recorded on November 4, 5, and 7, 1986.
  • “EARTH SONG.” “What About Us” was never a working/early title: “I can only guess that early on somebody in the studio wrote [that] on a tape box or track sheet.”
  • “GIVE IN TO ME.” Complete writing session worktape (an excerpt of which leaked in the Brad Sundberg theft) runs 1 hour and 55 minutes.
  • “IF YOU DON’T LOVE ME.” One of only three Bottrell-produced outtakes from Dangerous. Recorded in 1989 and briefly revisited/remixed in 2010 for Michael. Bottrell has denounced the leaked mix/es (“unfinished in very important ways, including vocals”) but speaks highly of the 2010 mix, noting that the “small fixes … “did improve the overall listening experience.”
  • “MAKE OR BREAK.” Recorded circa December 1985 at Hayvenhurst.
  • “MONKEY BUSINESS.” Bottrell doesn’t care for the released mix and prefers the rawer version that surfaced from the Brad Sundberg theft.
  • “STATE OF SHOCK” (w/ Freddie Mercury). Bottrell mixed the demo, which features MJ “bang[ing] on the drum in a closet.” When told that Randy Hansen is Mercury’s songwriting pseudonym, Bottrell responded, “That’s gotta be the answer.”
  • “TOMBOY.” Doubts veracity of the story that MJ gave guitarist Roger Troutman the multitracks after the song failed to make Bad.
  • “TURNIN’ ME OFF.” Worked on with John Barnes during the Bad sessions. “Weird little thing. Very unlikeable.”
  • “WHO IS IT.” Started production in late September 1990 at Record One. MJ performs the falsetto “harmonized stack intro” at the beginning of the song.
  • “WHY CAN’T YOU HEAR ME.” One of six songs demoed for MJ’s consideration in Bahrain in 2006. Drum programming by John Macleod. MJ heard the tracks but never worked on them. Bottrell had no involvement with the demo leaking online, and seemed shocked to discover it had when presented with it in early 2024.
 
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Tweet Recaps: JOE VOGEL

GENERAL NOTES & OBSERVATIONS
  • The estate provided some access to MJ’s unreleased material, but “most of the good stuff” came directly from collaborators.

SPECIFIC SONG NOTES
  • “MAKE A WISH.” Vocally complete.
  • “MAKE OR BREAK.” Vocally complete.
  • “NEVERLAND LANDING.” Vocally complete. Features orchestration and described as “very charming.”
  • “TOMBOY.” Vocally complete.
  • “TURNIN’ ME OFF.” Among Vogel’s favorite outtakes.
 
*waits for Lotfi asking questions*

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Thank you @AlwaysThere for compiling all the tweets and info.

The collaborators comment is interesting isn't? Maybe there's quite a few tracks the Estate are still not aware of

The songs Turnin' Me Off, Tomboy and Make Or Break are so interesting to me. We have 3 different accounts on them

I want to know when Vogel heard the tracks because I'm sure John Barnes remembered that Make Or Break was vocally unfinished didn't he? It would be wonderful if they were vocally finished
 
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SmoothCriminal1995 said:
Thank you @AlwaysThere for compiling all the tweets and info.

The collaborators comment is interesting isn't? Maybe there's quite a few tracks the Estate are still not aware of

The songs Turnin' Me Off, Tomboy and Make Or Break are so interesting to me. We have 3 different accounts on them

I want to know when Vogel heard the tracks because I'm sure John Barnes remembered that Make Or Break was vocally unfinished didn't he? It would be wonderful if they were vocally finished
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I'd tend to take Barnes word over Vogel's, as he was looking MJ in the face and taking his direction in real time. But, there's also many other things at play.

Could be a case of different recollections, and the truth being somewhere in the middle.

I find these interesting, as well. Hopefully we can all hear these one day and learn the truth with our own ears.
 
SmoothCriminal1995 said:
I want to know when Vogel heard the tracks because I'm sure John Barnes remembered that Make Or Break was vocally unfinished didn't he? It would be wonderful if they were vocally finished
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I can only think of Matt Forger letting Vogel hear some songs. Since Forger's the main guy helping the estate digitizing tapes, I assume he knows which songs have full vocals or not.
 
Maybe Michael Prince let him hear some songs too? He said in a tweet that he got to hear some Invincible era songs as well. I wish he'd get more into those types of tracks. Would be nice to get some clarification on Shut Up And Dance since he once said that MJ had recorded vocals for it, albeit very few while MP allegedly said in a seminar that it's a song that MJ never recorded. It's another of his inconsistencies.
 
Fuzball said:
I can only think of Matt Forger letting Vogel hear some songs. Since Forger's the main guy helping the estate digitizing tapes, I assume he knows which songs have full vocals or not.
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Forger probably is the best source right now for info and he's going to be at Brad's seminar in LA next month. Anybody going?
 
Derek1984 said:
Forger probably is the best source right now for info and he's going to be at Brad's seminar in LA next month. Anybody going?
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John van Nest will be there, too. He's good source for 1979 to 1981solo demos & Victory sessions. Would be awesome if someone from this forum could attend the seminar.
 
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ChanceToDance said:
Maybe Michael Prince let him hear some songs too? He said in a tweet that he got to hear some Invincible era songs as well. I wish he'd get more into those types of tracks. Would be nice to get some clarification on Shut Up And Dance since he once said that MJ had recorded vocals for it, albeit very few while MP allegedly said in a seminar that it's a song that MJ never recorded. It's another of his inconsistencies.
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Invincible is filled is occasional surprises, but almost all the interesting stuff has either been released, or leaked. Everything else is bland.
 
JamesCMJJ said:
Invincible is filled is occasional surprises, but almost all the interesting stuff has either been released, or leaked. Everything else is bland.
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There's still plenty I would like to hear from that era honestly, Shut Up And Dance for one is at the top of my list since people who heard it said it's an amazing song even if MJ isn't the one singing it. And I wouldn't mind listening to some of the remaining instrumentals the era has since Photographs is a nice, calming song. I also bet that the Darkchild/LaShawn Daniels demos aren't going to be bad to listen either, the guy had a great singing voice.
 
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