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The Discussion of MJ's Unreleased Tracks

We could try to compile a list of what was recorded at the Can-Am studio during the Victory sessions in ‘83/‘84, and the Soundcastle studio sessions in early/mid ‘85.

We can assume that these sessions occurred simultaneously alongside the Havenhurst sessions, and that all recording precedes the session calendar released by Bill, due to none of these songs appearing between October ‘85 and January ‘87.

Please correct this preliminary list if there are mistakes:

Can-Am 1984:

Buffalo Bill
Abortion Papers
Loving You (?)
Dirty Diana (?)

Soundcastle early/mid 1985:

Cheater
I’m So Blue (?)
Another Part of Me (?)

Please add to/correct this list
 
Bill Bottrell:

The SONGS belong to the Kids, Katherine, and co-publishers, and it's sketch to make money playing them in a public place.

The MASTERS (released recordings) belong to the record co. and/or the estate.

The thousands of hours of "work tapes" belong to the one who possesses them, but MJJ productions always collected all work tapes at the end of a project, and they are important to keep safe and valuable as further work may happen.

At MJJ, the vault is where all this was kept, where for years Craig Johnson was librarian. (maybe still? IDK)

I noticed after Cirque I started seeing multitracks up on the internet. I thought the Estate had gone lax on security. Michael's multitracks flying all over the world to be worked on at studios with assistants and desk people, various new engineers and producers. These are masters and the property of MJJ, but somebody was copying them for profit. That is theft.

Work tapes and outtakes are another subject: basically unless MJJ/the Estate just doesn't care anymore, which is an impossibly stupid idea - they could be used in a million ways for decades to come - they belong in the vault, they belong to MJJ/estate, unless somebody can prove they just found them in a dumpster or sitting on the sidewalk outside of Westlake.

This community taught me about the hunger for unreleased material out there, and that there is a big market and money is involved.

I love that the fans are so expert on these trivia and obscure leaks, but it's complicated morally, and as to business practice, surprisingly chaotic.
 
Fuzball said:
Bill Bottrell:

The SONGS belong to the Kids, Katherine, and co-publishers, and it's sketch to make money playing them in a public place.

The MASTERS (released recordings) belong to the record co. and/or the estate.

The thousands of hours of "work tapes" belong to the one who possesses them, but MJJ productions always collected all work tapes at the end of a project, and they are important to keep safe and valuable as further work may happen.

At MJJ, the vault is where all this was kept, where for years Craig Johnson was librarian. (maybe still? IDK)

I noticed after Cirque I started seeing multitracks up on the internet. I thought the Estate had gone lax on security. Michael's multitracks flying all over the world to be worked on at studios with assistants and desk people, various new engineers and producers. These are masters and the property of MJJ, but somebody was copying them for profit. That is theft.

Work tapes and outtakes are another subject: basically unless MJJ/the Estate just doesn't care anymore, which is an impossibly stupid idea - they could be used in a million ways for decades to come - they belong in the vault, they belong to MJJ/estate, unless somebody can prove they just found them in a dumpster or sitting on the sidewalk outside of Westlake.

This community taught me about the hunger for unreleased material out there, and that there is a big market and money is involved.

I love that the fans are so expert on these trivia and obscure leaks, but it's complicated morally, and as to business practice, surprisingly chaotic.
Click to expand...
He is absolutly right, of course it is not right to leak stuff, that you dont own. It is understandable of course due to the lag of new stuff coming out (Which cant understand as well)
 
Inthestudiowithmj said:
I mean what’s the point if 99% of his material is already leaked. Michael Prince is the man for unreleased material now, he’s got pretty much everything 2000-2009
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John Barnes has/had the early and mid 80s material
Bill has the later 80s and 90s material
Michael has the later years

That's how I see it but of course it's just speculation
 
Derek1984 said:
I thought one of those also had Roger Troutman... Maybe it was Al Capone? It was said Troutman worked on Tomboy and I think Al Capone. I wonder if that 11/28/85 session had Troutman perform on both songs.

Tomboy must have been held back for BAD25. There was a rough mix and vocals confirmed.
Click to expand...

"He [Roger Troutman] worked with us on several early Bad tracks. It wasn't kept but it felt and sounded great. Tomboy and Al Capone." - John Barnes

He didn't produce the songs, just played on them.
 
BlackAnon said:
John Barnes has/had the early and mid 80s material
Bill has the later 80s and 90s material
Michael has the later years

That's how I see it but of course it's just speculation
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Bill literally just said he doesn’t have any tapes from his time with MJ. Who knows what Barnes may or may not have had. Michael Prince and Buxer both have the material they worked on with MJ
 
Inthestudiowithmj said:
Bill literally just said he doesn’t have any tapes from his time with MJ. Who knows what Barnes may or may not have had. Michael Prince and Buxer both have the material they worked on with MJ
Click to expand...
Not to mention that Michael Prince worked on The Ultimate Collection and they supposedly went through the entire vault for that project, so he's gonna have way more than just songs from 1998-2009.

There's also that MJ went back to dozens of old demos throughout the 2000's. The guy must be LOADED with material.
 
Inthestudiowithmj said:
Bill literally just said he doesn’t have any tapes from his time with MJ. Who knows what Barnes may or may not have had. Michael Prince and Buxer both have the material they worked on with MJ
Click to expand...
Which is why I said just speculation. Relax.
 
ChanceToDance said:
Not to mention that Michael Prince worked on The Ultimate Collection and they supposedly went through the entire vault for that project, so he's gonna have way more than just songs from 1998-2009.

There's also that MJ went back to dozens of old demos throughout the 2000's. The guy must be LOADED with material.
Click to expand...
Lord Jackson, you know what to do
 
robotchicken14 said:
We could try to compile a list of what was recorded at the Can-Am studio during the Victory sessions in ‘83/‘84, and the Soundcastle studio sessions in early/mid ‘85.

We can assume that these sessions occurred simultaneously alongside the Havenhurst sessions, and that all recording precedes the session calendar released by Bill, due to none of these songs appearing between October ‘85 and January ‘87.

Please correct this preliminary list if there are mistakes:

Can-Am 1984:

Buffalo Bill
Abortion Papers
Loving You (?)
Dirty Diana (?)

Soundcastle early/mid 1985:

Cheater
I’m So Blue (?)
Another Part of Me (?)

Please add to/correct this list
Click to expand...
Buffalo Bill actually dates back further. It was originally recorded with John Barnes at Soundcastle, possibly late 1983. Don't know the exact date, but it was the first song MJ and Barnes worked on, this according to Barnes when he was interviewed on the MJ podcast.
 
robotchicken14 said:
Can-Am 1984:

Buffalo Bill
Abortion Papers
Loving You (?)
Dirty Diana (?)

Soundcastle early/mid 1985:

Cheater
I’m So Blue (?)
Another Part of Me (?)

Please add to/correct this list
Click to expand...
Derek1984 said:
Buffalo Bill actually dates back further. It was originally recorded with John Barnes at Soundcastle, possibly late 1983. Don't know the exact date, but it was the first song MJ and Barnes worked on, this according to Barnes when he was interviewed on the MJ podcast.
Click to expand...

Yeah Buffalo Bill dates back to late 1983 along with Dirty Diana. Another Part of Me is dated as 1984 and recorded during Victory

"Liberian Girl and Another Part of Me were pre Synclavier done during the last third of Victory and way before Bad's writing and development phase." - John Barnes
 
BlackAnon said:
Yep. Anything solely written by Michael was more than likely recorded and mixed at Hayvenhurst with the exception of Bad, which I think was recorded in NY while they were filming the short film. John said the chant at the beginning of Liberian Girl was the only thing added and what we hear on the song is exactly what they did in 1983.
Click to expand...
I wonder if that layered vocal leak was from 83 & not 86
 
Fuzball said:
Bill Bottrell:

The SONGS belong to the Kids, Katherine, and co-publishers, and it's sketch to make money playing them in a public place.

The MASTERS (released recordings) belong to the record co. and/or the estate.

The thousands of hours of "work tapes" belong to the one who possesses them, but MJJ productions always collected all work tapes at the end of a project, and they are important to keep safe and valuable as further work may happen.

At MJJ, the vault is where all this was kept, where for years Craig Johnson was librarian. (maybe still? IDK)

I noticed after Cirque I started seeing multitracks up on the internet. I thought the Estate had gone lax on security. Michael's multitracks flying all over the world to be worked on at studios with assistants and desk people, various new engineers and producers. These are masters and the property of MJJ, but somebody was copying them for profit. That is theft.

Work tapes and outtakes are another subject: basically unless MJJ/the Estate just doesn't care anymore, which is an impossibly stupid idea - they could be used in a million ways for decades to come - they belong in the vault, they belong to MJJ/estate, unless somebody can prove they just found them in a dumpster or sitting on the sidewalk outside of Westlake.

This community taught me about the hunger for unreleased material out there, and that there is a big market and money is involved.

I love that the fans are so expert on these trivia and obscure leaks, but it's complicated morally, and as to business practice, surprisingly chaotic.
Click to expand...
Bruce knew better than to let those tapes out of his vault, Florida or not.
Because my work tapes are out there, I think it had to be the MJ vault in W. LA

Where I put them. And nobody had a legitimate reason to take out any tape of me and Michael sitting around writing a song.
 
Fuzball said:
Apparently "Make or Break" was briefly considered for Dangerous.

During Dangerous at Record One. Just some fiddling. It wasn't very good.
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I was the person who asked about Make or Break.

John Barnes had positive things to say about Buffalo Bill and seemed very high on Make or Break. So it's funny that Bill thinks both songs are not good.
 
Derek1984 said:
I was the person who asked about Make or Break.

John Barnes had positive things to say about Buffalo Bill and seemed very high on Make or Break. So it's funny that Bill thinks both songs are not good.
Click to expand...
At this point, I think Bill is just being that person who disagrees just for the sake of it. With all due respect, his Streetwalker rework is the weakest by far and he killed the flow of the 1987 mix and yet I remember him saying it's the better mix.

People can get grumpy with time, it's normal. I wouldn't take his word as the gospel as he seems to mix facts with very biased personal views.
 
Derek1984 said:
I was the person who asked about Make or Break.

John Barnes had positive things to say about Buffalo Bill and seemed very high on Make or Break. So it's funny that Bill thinks both songs are not good.
Click to expand...
I don't think that BB might be a weak track, since it was a contender for Victory and official sources let the media know about the song (Frank Dileo's recited in RS mag in '84). So was PoF in '87 - and this is imho by far the strongest posthumously released MJ song.
 
I think “Buffalo Bill” will inevitably be a slight disappointment solely because of how much hype has surrounded it for decades. “Chicago 1945” was well-praised by insiders, and the collective response to it was, “It’s pretty good.” It’s hard to measure up to expectations that high. I of course definitely wanna hear it, but I’m half expecting to think it’s just alright.
 
Fuzball said:
I don't think that BB might be a weak track, since it was a contender for Victory and official sources let the media know about the song (Frank Dileo's recited in RS mag in '84).
Click to expand...
I know but ultimately, it didn't make the final cut. So you would have to think, if it was that good, it would've made the final cut.

Being replaced by Be Not Always, is not saying much about Buffalo Bill.
 
AlwaysThere said:
I think “Buffalo Bill” will inevitably be a slight disappointment solely because of how much hype has surrounded it for decades. “Chicago 1945” was well-praised by insiders, and the collective response to it was, “It’s pretty good.” It’s hard to measure up to expectations that high. I of course definitely wanna hear it, but I’m half expecting to think it’s just alright.
Click to expand...
IMO, this has been the case with all unreleased songs to this point. Some are good, but they all pale in comparison to what made the final album. Maybe that's just because they aren't finished? But you could hear where they were going, and understand why the song wasn't strong enough.
 
AlwaysThere said:
I think “Buffalo Bill” will inevitably be a slight disappointment solely because of how much hype has surrounded it for decades. “Chicago 1945” was well-praised by insiders, and the collective response to it was, “It’s pretty good.” It’s hard to measure up to expectations that high. I of course definitely wanna hear it, but I’m half expecting to think it’s just alright.
Click to expand...
I agree with that regarding the leaked "remix" of C45. But in all fairness, we haven't heard the original version left by Michael yet.
 
Derek1984 said:
Buffalo Bill actually dates back further. It was originally recorded with John Barnes at Soundcastle, possibly late 1983. Don't know the exact date, but it was the first song MJ and Barnes worked on, this according to Barnes when he was interviewed on the MJ podcast.
Click to expand...
BlackAnon said:
Yeah Buffalo Bill dates back to late 1983 along with Dirty Diana. Another Part of Me is dated as 1984 and recorded during Victory
Click to expand...
Thanks, I’m going to edit my original post when more info is confirmed. I think it would be great to have a definitive timeline of recording between ‘83 and Jan ‘87, especially since TUC liner notes are notoriously wrong.

Cheater is confirmed as Soundcastle ‘85 right? And Abortion Papers, I’m So Blue and Loving You are around the same time or Can-Am ‘84?
 
Derek1984 said:
I know but ultimately, it didn't make the final cut. So you would have to think, if it was that good, it would've made the final cut.

Being replaced by Be Not Always, is not saying much about Buffalo Bill.
Click to expand...
I always had the impression that Michael's priorities have shifted after the huge success of the Thriller he withhold songs from his brothers.

iirc someone on here said he saw a tape of BB dated to 1990.
 
Derek1984 said:
IMO, this has been the case with all unreleased songs to this point. Some are good, but they all pale in comparison to what made the final album. Maybe that's just because they aren't finished? But you could hear where they were going, and understand why the song wasn't strong enough.
Click to expand...
I would agree if not for some decisions MJ made to include songs he hadn’t written on his post-Thriller albums. Just Good Friends, Keep the Faith, most of Invincible. All had better MJ-written alternatives imo
 
Derek1984 said:
IMO, this has been the case with all unreleased songs to this point. Some are good, but they all pale in comparison to what made the final album. Maybe that's just because they aren't finished? But you could hear where they were going, and understand why the song wasn't strong enough.
Click to expand...
It’s 50/50 for me. Some songs very clearly weren’t up to par, but others are leagues better than the material that made the final album. “Best of Joy,” “Who Do You Know,” “I’m So Blue,” “Hollywood Tonight,” “Monkey Business,” “Cheater,” “Escape,” “Blue Gangsta,” and others should’ve made the albums they were auditioned for, imo.
 
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