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The Discussion of MJ's Unreleased Tracks

Fuzball said:
I don't think that BB might be a weak track, since it was a contender for Victory and official sources let the media know about the song (Frank Dileo's recited in RS mag in '84).
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I know but ultimately, it didn't make the final cut. So you would have to think, if it was that good, it would've made the final cut.

Being replaced by Be Not Always, is not saying much about Buffalo Bill.
 
AlwaysThere said:
I think “Buffalo Bill” will inevitably be a slight disappointment solely because of how much hype has surrounded it for decades. “Chicago 1945” was well-praised by insiders, and the collective response to it was, “It’s pretty good.” It’s hard to measure up to expectations that high. I of course definitely wanna hear it, but I’m half expecting to think it’s just alright.
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IMO, this has been the case with all unreleased songs to this point. Some are good, but they all pale in comparison to what made the final album. Maybe that's just because they aren't finished? But you could hear where they were going, and understand why the song wasn't strong enough.
 
AlwaysThere said:
I think “Buffalo Bill” will inevitably be a slight disappointment solely because of how much hype has surrounded it for decades. “Chicago 1945” was well-praised by insiders, and the collective response to it was, “It’s pretty good.” It’s hard to measure up to expectations that high. I of course definitely wanna hear it, but I’m half expecting to think it’s just alright.
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I agree with that regarding the leaked "remix" of C45. But in all fairness, we haven't heard the original version left by Michael yet.
 
Derek1984 said:
Buffalo Bill actually dates back further. It was originally recorded with John Barnes at Soundcastle, possibly late 1983. Don't know the exact date, but it was the first song MJ and Barnes worked on, this according to Barnes when he was interviewed on the MJ podcast.
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BlackAnon said:
Yeah Buffalo Bill dates back to late 1983 along with Dirty Diana. Another Part of Me is dated as 1984 and recorded during Victory
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Thanks, I’m going to edit my original post when more info is confirmed. I think it would be great to have a definitive timeline of recording between ‘83 and Jan ‘87, especially since TUC liner notes are notoriously wrong.

Cheater is confirmed as Soundcastle ‘85 right? And Abortion Papers, I’m So Blue and Loving You are around the same time or Can-Am ‘84?
 
Derek1984 said:
I know but ultimately, it didn't make the final cut. So you would have to think, if it was that good, it would've made the final cut.

Being replaced by Be Not Always, is not saying much about Buffalo Bill.
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I always had the impression that Michael's priorities have shifted after the huge success of the Thriller he withhold songs from his brothers.

iirc someone on here said he saw a tape of BB dated to 1990.
 
Derek1984 said:
IMO, this has been the case with all unreleased songs to this point. Some are good, but they all pale in comparison to what made the final album. Maybe that's just because they aren't finished? But you could hear where they were going, and understand why the song wasn't strong enough.
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I would agree if not for some decisions MJ made to include songs he hadn’t written on his post-Thriller albums. Just Good Friends, Keep the Faith, most of Invincible. All had better MJ-written alternatives imo
 
Derek1984 said:
IMO, this has been the case with all unreleased songs to this point. Some are good, but they all pale in comparison to what made the final album. Maybe that's just because they aren't finished? But you could hear where they were going, and understand why the song wasn't strong enough.
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It’s 50/50 for me. Some songs very clearly weren’t up to par, but others are leagues better than the material that made the final album. “Best of Joy,” “Who Do You Know,” “I’m So Blue,” “Hollywood Tonight,” “Monkey Business,” “Cheater,” “Escape,” “Blue Gangsta,” and others should’ve made the albums they were auditioned for, imo.
 
robotchicken14 said:
I would agree if not for some decisions MJ made to include songs he hadn’t written on his post-Thriller albums. Just Good Friends, Keep the Faith, most of Invincible. All had better MJ-written alternatives imo
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Keep The Faith is an amazing song , one thing I will say about it is that it is a tad too long. Same with Will You Be There and . It could have made room for a couple extra funky numbers.
 
AlwaysThere said:
It’s 50/50 for me. Some songs very clearly weren’t up to par, but others are leagues better than the material that made the final album. “Best of Joy,” “Who Do You Know,” “I’m So Blue,” “Hollywood Tonight,” “Monkey Business,” “Cheater,” “Escape,” “Blue Gangsta,” and others should’ve made the albums they were auditioned for, imo.
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There’s no way Who Do You Know is “leagues above” anything on Thriller. I love it but cmon.

Unless you mean it should’ve been on Triumph?
 
robotchicken14 said:
There’s no way Who Do You Know is “leagues above” anything on Thriller. I love it but cmon.

Unless you mean it should’ve been on Triumph?
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I think it’s better than “The Girl Is Mine” for sure. As for Triumph, I still prefer it over maybe a third of the final track listing (specifically “Your Ways,” “Everybody,” and “Wondering Who”).
 
MJbr2 said:
At this point, I think Bill is just being that person who disagrees just for the sake of it. With all due respect, his Streetwalker rework is the weakest by far and he killed the flow of the 1987 mix and yet I remember him saying it's the better mix.

People can get grumpy with time, it's normal. I wouldn't take his word as the gospel as he seems to mix facts with very biased personal views.
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I can’t agree with that, the officially released mix to me is way more energetic, finished & contemporary, while still sounding experimental & progressive.
The leaked 87 version, while not bad, is clearly unfinished, less dynamic & energetic.

That said:
I would love to have the third (Westlake) version, to have the trilogy complete & we could compare three.
Still, for now I think the Special Edition version would come out on top.
 
MJbr2 said:
Are you referring to the LQ seminar recording? If yes, well, I can only respect your opinion. Bill's mix killed the grooviness of the mix meant to make it onto the album.
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The version I‘m talking about is the lossless leak we have from the B. S. - laptop - theft.
I never listened to a lq third version..
 
Fuzball said:
here ya go

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This version is so great. I remember listening to this leak for the first time. Those strings and adlibs at the end!

It’s a shame we didn’t get this version on the special editon and bad 25, because this is the one that Michael wanted on the album.

That said, I think the best version would be by combining the two. Like that breakdown section (“Why don’t you give me some time”).
 
Fuzball said:
I always had the impression that Michael's priorities have shifted after the huge success of the Thriller he withhold songs from his brothers.

iirc someone on here said he saw a tape of BB dated to 1990.
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I've thought that, but I'm not sure that should include Buffalo Bill. *I think* Buffalo Bill might have vocals from the brothers. So it that is true, it was meant for a Jacksons album. Also, we know songs like Liberian Girl could've been on Victory, but that one was obviously held back... And later did make BAD. Buffalo Bill never ended up on anything.

Based on what we know about Buffalo Bill, I think we can confirm it was so close to being finished and on Victory, that it made news in the media and Bruce did a mix on it. It must have been left off Victory at the very last second.
 
Bill Bottrell:

Matt and John did APOM during Eo sessions.
On the album it's always sounded like a EO era to me

We did TWYMMF at Hayv. This one had added stuff by Q. But we'll never know exactly the diff. All I have is memory, which for a producer is pretty good on anything you play 400 times in 5 days
 
Fuzball said:
Bill Bottrell:

Matt and John did APOM during Eo sessions.
On the album it's always sounded like a EO era to me

We did TWYMMF at Hayv. This one had added stuff by Q. But we'll never know exactly the diff. All I have is memory, which for a producer is pretty good on anything you play 400 times in 5 days
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So that corroborates the rumour that APOM didn't have elements re-recorded from the 1985 mix, they just remixed it and maybe added some new stuff in, right?
 
Bill on Buffalo Bill:

Well sometime lyrics are just place keepers. Or sometimes an artist or manager has to make a public statement and throw in there whatever is on their mind that day. I know the track was already recorded, and I didn't hear any particular groove that would say "holy grail".
I think all the brothers were there at Can Am too.
 
AlwaysThere said:
I think it’s better than “The Girl Is Mine” for sure. As for Triumph, I still prefer it over maybe a third of the final track listing (specifically “Your Ways,” “Everybody,” and “Wondering Who”).
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The Girl Is Mine has a stronger melody. And I love Who Do You Know. That song and Lovin' You are my favorite of the unreleased stuff. But Who Do You Know had no place on Thriller.

I would've liked Who Do You Know on Triumph. It would've worked well with the brothers on background. But don't forget back then, they could only fit so many songs on an album. As it is, the songs were sped up to fit on that album.
 
Anybody watch Bill Wolfer on YouTube? He's been doing videos on MJ and has a good memory. I asked him about unreleased stuff, but he said he only worked on the songs that made the album (Billie Jean, Beat It, WBSS).

Anyways Bill mentioned, as we already kind of had an idea, Quincy Jones heard the demo to "Ain't Nobody" and begged for the song to be on Thriller. But the writer had already promised it to Chaka Khan. Don't know how that would've fit on Thriller but that song was a hit for Chaka.
 
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