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Was "Al Capone" made before "Smooth Criminal"?

Spaceship

Spaceship

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The usual story is that "Smooth Criminal" came later, and it was born from "Al Capone" (like how "Thriller" was born from "Starlight Sun"). But I'm reading that the two songs were being worked on at the same time in 1985.
 
Al Capone evolved into Smooth Criminal but they were treated as different songs during the Hayvenhurst recording sessions

"Michael recorded the demo for "Smooth Criminal" at the Bee Gees Studio in the 80's ! It was called "Al Capone" at the time. John Barnes had a LOT of MIDI stuff in our room. You couldn't walk around." Bruce Swedien
 
Chicago 1945 --> Al Capone --> Smooth Criminal are all seperate, independent songs. AC & SC were just inpired by their predecessor(s).

The bulk of Moonwalker (Michael leaving the house after LMA video up to the final Come Together segment) is basically based on "Chicago 1945".
 
Obviously they're different songs, but "Al Capone" and "Smooth Criminal" sound very similar to each other; "Chicago 1945" sounds nothing like them.

"Starlight Sun" and "Thriller" are different songs, but it's easy to see that the latter came from the former.
 
Al Capone was recorded in 1986, Smooth Criminal was recorded in November 1986 - April 1986.
 
Spaceship said:
Obviously they're different songs, but "Al Capone" and "Smooth Criminal" sound very similar to each other; "Chicago 1945" sounds nothing like them.
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Same approach, different compositions

Spaceship said:
"Starlight Sun" and "Thriller" are different songs, but it's easy to see that the latter came from the former.
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same composition; more precisely, Thriller is an overdubbed version of Starlight with just new lyrics.
 
KOPV said:
Al Capone was recorded in 1986, Smooth Criminal was recorded in November 1986 - April 1986.
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Al Capone was recorded in 85’. Possibly even a bit earlier, I believe, based on what Bottrell has said.
 
Spaceship said:
"Starlight Sun" and "Thriller" are different songs, but it's easy to see that the latter came from the former.
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That’s a completely different situation though. I would not say they are “different songs”. One is clearly an earlier version of the same song.

The only thing that is different in Thriller is the lyrics. The chords, melody and production (despite the fact that the instruments were re-recorded of course) are the same. Which is not the case in Al Capone and Smooth Criminal.
 

Smooth Criminal - Michael Jackson Official Site

“Smooth Criminal” is the seventh single released from the 1987 ‘Bad’ album. The song was written and composed by Michael Jackson and co-produced by Quincy Jones and Michael Jackson. An estimated 7.5 million copies of the single have been sold to date. Early versions of “Smooth Criminal” were...
www.michaeljackson.com www.michaeljackson.com
dethorro said:
Al Capone was recorded in 85’. Possibly even a bit earlier, I believe, based on what Bottrell has said.
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It is also documented in a couple books.
 
Fuzball said:
Nope. Both songs were started beforehttps://www.michaeljackson.com/track/smooth-criminal-1/#:~:text=Michael%20recorded%20a%20demo%20of,Eric%20Chevlen. Bill Bottrell took over. It wouldn't suprise me, if both songs would date back to 1984.
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There may have been some recordings prior but:

February 09, 1986 : Recording session at Michael’s Hayvenhurst home studio. MJ, Bill Bottrell, John Barnes and Matt Forger work on the “Al Capone”.

February 17, 1986 : Recording session at Michael’s Hayvenhurst home studio. MJ, Bill Bottrell, John Barnes and Matt Forger work on the “Al Capone”.
 
KOPV said:
There may have been some recordings prior but:

February 09, 1986 : Recording session at Michael’s Hayvenhurst home studio. MJ, Bill Bottrell, John Barnes and Matt Forger work on the “Al Capone”.

February 17, 1986 : Recording session at Michael’s Hayvenhurst home studio. MJ, Bill Bottrell, John Barnes and Matt Forger work on the “Al Capone”.
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What makes these dates special?
 
KOPV said:
Al Capone was recorded in 1986, Smooth Criminal was recorded in November 1986 - April 1986.
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Bill Bottrell's session calendar shows Smooth Criminal being worked in October 1985 which means Al Capone was recorded earlier than that
 
Fuzball said:
Michael & John Barnes did work on Al Capone in late October/early November 1984 at Criteria Studios in Miami; the session's engineered by Larry Janus. (source: old forum post of Larry on harmony central boards)
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Isn’t it insane how many dates of songs have been revealed to be so much earlier than initially thought?

All these Bad era demos (Al Capone, Cheater, I’m So Blue…) dating to as far back as 1983 and 84.

Off-topic: @Fuzball, from what I understand basically everything we hear on Liberian Girl, on the Bad album, comes from the 1983 demo. Does that include the lead vocal?
 
Chicago 1945 was the earliest of the three songs, written in January 1983. Out of that idea, Al Capone, which was written in 1984 and Smooth Criminal, in mid-1985, were created. All three songs were considered seperate during that time and Al Capone as well as Smooth Criminal entered active production at Hayvenhust in October 1, 1985. Al Capone was being worked on until February 17, 1986, that year Chicago 1945 also resurfaced and got additional production in Spring 1986 but was ultimately scrapped, in favor of Smooth Criminal.

hope that helps
 
dethorro said:
Isn’t it insane how many dates of songs have been revealed to be so much earlier than initially thought?

All these Bad era demos (Al Capone, Cheater, I’m So Blue…) dating to as far back as 1983 and 84.
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Brian Malouf says, Michael did start recording songs for the Bad album as early as 1983 while he's also working on Victory.

Btw, Abortion Papers is one of those songs from these sessions that no one knew about until it was discovered by Matt Forger while he's digitizing the tapes. So, there might be more songs with full vocals than we thought.



MJ related part start at 16 minutes





dethorro said:
Off-topic: @Fuzball, from what I understand basically everything we hear on Liberian Girl, on the Bad album, comes from the 1983 demo. Does that include the lead vocal?
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Not sure about that. Bill Bottrell said, some songs were redone from scratch.
 

Kevin has worked with MJ for a period of few month before Christopher Currell took over in early 1985.
 
mjfp said:
Chicago 1945 was the earliest of the three songs, written in January 1983.
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I believe this is still something that needs to be clarified with Porcaro at some point. In the past he used to say the song was done shortly before the Victory Tour. Then he said one month after Thriller, which was surprising to many. But we still don’t know exactly if Thriller the album, the song, the music video? It could mean any one of them.

Of course the album would make most sense, since one wouldn’t necessarily expect him to remember when the single was released, but the video also had an enormous impact, so he might have been thinking about that. It certainly would align more with his earlier statements.
 
www.mjvibe.com

Steve Porcaro selling his music rights to the Estate - MJVibe

Steve Porcaro who wrote the music for “Human Nature” is selling his music rights. This week, Porcaro signed a deal, estimated in the low eight figures, to sell the rights to his music to the Jackson estate and the independent music company Primary Wave, they confirmed. The deal may also have a...
www.mjvibe.com www.mjvibe.com

Their genesis goes back to the “Thriller” sessions, when Porcaro and other members of Toto — including his brother Jeff, the group’s super-virtuoso drummer — were part of the album’s small army of studio players. As work on the album neared its end, Porcaro said, Jackson asked him to collaborate on songs for his next project with his brothers, which became the Jacksons’ “Victory.”

“Of course I said yes,” Porcaro recalled. He handed Jackson a tape with an upbeat track he had been working on.

A couple of weeks later, Porcaro said, Jackson showed up unannounced at Paich’s home studio, where Porcaro was living. “I got a vocal idea I want to throw on our tune,” Jackson told him. He got on the mic and recorded nine vocal lines — lead parts, harmonies, backups — with lyrics referencing Chicago in the year 1945, like the Cubs losing the World Series. Jackson finished in about 40 minutes and abruptly left.
 
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