Not releasing "Give in to Me" as a single in the US was a mistake.

[Spaceship]

Was a guaranteed hit. Should've been a no-brainer to release it as a single when it's the closest MJ got to grunge, which was huge at the time. It should've been the fourth single instead of "Jam".

 

[R1chard]

It definitely wasn't grunge, lol. And nobody who was into underground music was gonna go anywhere near MJ.

Like, it was released everywhere else, and was a moderate hit.

I don't get this "mistake" that you're talking about.

Jam was a decent hit, and had to be released when it was because of the NBA finals and Dream Team at the Olympics.

 

[Spaceship]

Jam was a decent hit

No.26 on the Hot 100 isn't decent for MJ, especially when "Black or White" was no.1, "Remember the Time" no.2, and "In the Closet" no.6.

"Jam" was a flop.

had to be released when it was because of the NBA finals and Dream Team at the Olympics.

The song doesn't even have anything to do with basketball!

It never "had" to be a single. They thought bringing Michael Jordan on the music video would make it a success, and it didn't.

 

[Spaceship]

"Give in to Me" was more successful than "Jam" in every country it was released other than Belgium.

 

[mj_frenzy]

'Jam' was a flop in the US mostly because of its new jack swing sound.

In the US, new jack swing was already on the decline in 1992/1993 (for the same reason, 'In The Closet' was also a flop there during that period).

Also, 'Jam' was a song with a social theme along with a fast and angry vocal delivery, so it was never meant to have big success on charts not only in the US but also internationally.

 

[Spaceship]

In the US, new jack swing was already on the decline in 1992/1993 (for the same reason, 'In The Closet' was also a flop there during that period).

In the US, "In the Closet" peaked at no.6 on the Hot 100, which most definitely is not a flop lol. It topped the R&B chart, too.

 

[mj_frenzy]

In the US, "In the Closet" peaked at no.6 on the Hot 100, which most definitely is not a flop lol. It topped the R&B chart, too.

By Michael Jackson's standards, it can be said that 'In The Closet' was a flop on the Billboard Hot 100 chart.

Especially considering that with his previous 'BAD' album many of its singles peaked at No.1 on the same chart.

 

[R1chard]

"Jam" was a flop.

It was top 10 in a lot of countries. It was a moderate hit. It did about as well as can be expected for a single released so late in an album's lifespan.

And it had approximately the same success as GITM. Certainly not worth cancelling one to release the other. Your premise is flawed.

The song doesn't even have anything to do with basketball!

I refuse to believe you haven't seen the video.

It never "had" to be a single. They thought bringing Michael Jordan on the music video would make it a success, and it didn't.

He was the biggest star on the planet. So big that he brought the sport to the world. Before Jordan, nobody in the UK cared about basketball. And after Jordan, nobody in the UK cared about basketball.

On 14 June, 1992 he won the NBA championship for a second year running, including the finals MVP award, and the season MVP award, both for a second year running.

On 13 July, Jam was released. Lots of people lost their shit.

On 8 August, he won the Olympic gold medal for the second time.

He had a great couple of months! And that's why ultimately Sony had no other choice. Strike while the iron is hot.

 

[Spaceship]

By Michael Jackson's standards, it can be said that 'In The Closet' was a flop on the Billboard Hot 100 chart.

Especially considering that with his previous 'BAD' album many of its singles peaked at No.1 on the same chart.

"Smooth Criminal" only hit no.7, but it's still one of MJ's best known songs, arguably more so than any of Bad's other singles. A song doesn't have to hit no.1 to be successful. If it at least makes the top 10, then it did fine.

 

[Spaceship]

It was top 10 in a lot of countries.

Not the US, not Canada, not the UK, not Australia, etc.

It did about as well as can be expected for a single released so late in an album's lifespan.

It was literally released less than a year after the album came out.

"Will You Be There" came out much later and it did far better.

And it had approximately the same success as GITM.

Even just looking at the Eurochart Hot 100, which compiles various European charts, this is false.

"Jam" only hit no.21.

"Give in to Me" hit no.4. Landslide victory.

Even in a non-European country like Australia, "Give in to Me" still did far better. Based on all this, we can extrapolate and say that "Give in to Me" would've been much bigger than "Jam" if it was a US single.

I refuse to believe you haven't seen the video.

Song =/= video.

There's nothing about the song "Jam" that has anything to do with basketball.

He was the biggest star on the planet. So big that he brought the sport to the world. Before Jordan, nobody in the UK cared about basketball. And after Jordan, nobody in the UK cared about basketball.

On 14 June, 1992 he won the NBA championship for a second year running, including the finals MVP award, and the season MVP award, both for a second year running.

On 13 July, Jam was released. Lots of people lost their shit.

On 8 August, he won the Olympic gold medal for the second time.

No, putting a really famous guy in a music video doesn't guarantee a song to be a success at all. That's kid logic.

"The music video had Michael Jordan, so the song was sure to be huge!" It wasn't. Flopped hard in the US, where the NBA is based. Jordan's popularity means nothing when the song itself wasn't appealing.

Notice how this whole time you haven't said why you think the song worked as a single. You're just talking about the video. "Jam"'s video was never going to do what "Thriller" did.

 

[DuranDuran]

"Will You Be There" came out much later and it did far better.

That wasn't released as a single from Dangerous in the US. It was a single from the Free Willy soundtrack, which didn't have that long orchestra piece at the beginning. So was the SWV Right Here remix that had vocals from Human Nature on it

 

[DuranDuran]

Give In To Me is closer to 1980s glam metal (aka "hair metal") than grunge. It sounds like the 1984 Dokken song Alone Again.

 

[Spaceship]

It was a single from the Free Willy soundtrack

And by extension, Dangerous, because the song is originally from that album.

which didn't have that long orchestra piece at the beginning

Single edit

 

[Spaceship]

If you want to argue that "Will You Be There" only did well because it was in the Free Wily movie, w/e. But "Who Is It" was also released in the US in 1993 and it did considerably better than "Jam" as it was a top 15 hit; "Jam" didn't even touch the top 25.

 

[Piek]

I freakin' love Jam, but it's not a tune people can easily hum or whistle... I think a hit song needs to be 'hummable' even for people who can't sing at all. (like me, ) Give In To Me has a melody that is much easier to reproduce, when you have heard it on the radio.

 

[DuranDuran]

If you want to argue that "Will You Be There" only did well because it was in the Free Wily movie, w/e. But "Who Is It" was also released in the US in 1993 and it did considerably better than "Jam" as it was a top 15 hit; "Jam" didn't even touch the top 25.

It was "too Black" for the mainstream pop audience. Jam reached #3 on the R&B chart. Just like Stevie Wonder's Get It was #4 on the R&B chart, but only #80 on the Hot 100. R&B in general did not crossover like hip hop later did. That's why in the US artists like Mike, Prince. Lionel Richie, Whitney Houston, Tina Turner, etc. were accused of watering down their music to reach the white audience.

 

[DuranDuran]

I freakin' love Jam, but it's not a tune people can easily hum or whistle... I think a hit song needs to be 'hummable' even for people who can't sing at all. (like me, ) Give In To Me has a melody that is much easier to reproduce, when you have heard it on the radio.

R&B, funk, and hip hop are often more based on rhythm and/or the beat than melody. If you listen to James Brown's 1970s funk stuff, it's usually long repetitive grooves. James has an entire song called Funky Drummer, which is one of the most sampled songs in history. That's why bands like Funkadelic & Zapp had very little crossover, but were very popular on R&B radio. Ironically Dr. Dre had mainstream success in the 1990s using Parliament-Funkadelic's sound calling it G-Funk

 

[Spaceship]

Anyway, even if I were to excuse "Jam" as the fourth single given how much money went into the music video that featured Michael Jordan, "Heal the World" shouldn't have been released in the US; it was corny as hell and no surprise it flopped. And "Gone Too Soon" shouldn't have been a single at all.

1. Black or White (November 1991, worldwide)
2. Remember the Time (January 1992, worldwide)
3. In the Closet (April 1992, worldwide)
4. Jam (July 1992, worldwide)
5. Heal the World (July 1992, not in the US)
6. Give in to Me (November 1992, worldwide)
7. Who Is It (February 1993, worldwide)
8. Will You Be There (June 1993, worldwide)
9. Dangerous (August 1993, in time for 2nd leg of tour, not in the US)

Are what the singles should've been.

 

[Lightbringer]

If "Jam" really had to be a single, then we should at least be able to agree that "Heal the World" was a mistake. The song was corny as hell and it was no surprise when it flopped in the US. If not after "In the Closet", "Give in to Me" should've come out in the US after "Jam". "Heal the World" shouldn't have been released in the US at all. And "Gone Too Soon" shouldn't have been a single at all.

1. Black or White (late 1991, worldwide)
2. Remember the Time (early 1992, worldwide)
3. In the Closet (spring 1992, worldwide)
4. Give in to Me (summer 1992, worldwide)
5. Who Is It (fall 1992, worldwide)
6. Jam (winter 1992, not in US)
7. Heal the World (early 1993, not in US)
8. Will You Be There (spring 1993, worldwide, in time for Free Wily)
9. Dangerous (summer 1993, in time for 2nd leg of tour, not in US)

Are what the singles should've been

What would MJ have to gain by not releasing of your proposed singles in the USA?

 

[Spaceship]

What would MJ have to gain by not releasing of your proposed singles in the USA?

What did he have to gain by not releasing any song in the US?

If a song isn't likely to succeed in the US, release it somewhere or don't release it at all.

 

[R1chard]

Even just looking at the Eurochart Hot 100, which compiles various European charts, this is false.

It just seems like you're really hung up on chart positions.

You shouldn't be. In some ways the numbers are random anyway. It doesn't matter that one song got to #6 and another song got to #7.

There's nothing about the song "Jam" that has anything to do with basketball.

Ok.

And still it doesn't matter.

Notice how this whole time you haven't said why you think the song worked as a single.

Jam is one of my favourite songs on the album. I love it. But I don't care if anybody else likes it or not, so I don't care to try to persuade you to like it. You hate it, and I'm fine with that.

All I'm saying is your premise is flawed. There's no point in cancelling one single just to release another. Seems like people barely used to buy CD singles in the USA in the 90s anyway, so it's a moot point.

 

[Spaceship]

In some ways the numbers are random anyway. It doesn't matter that one song got to #6 and another song got to #7.

But it does matter that one got to no.21 "Jam") and another got to no.4 ("Give in to Me"). That's a 17-position difference.

"Jam" flopped in the US and Europe. No need for it to have been a single at all.

And still it doesn't matter.

Nice backpedal lol

Jam is one of my favorite songs on the album.

Explains your bias.

You hate it, and I'm fine with that.

I never said that.

There's no point in cancelling one single release just to release another.

When the other one is more likely to succeed, there is.

 

[Spaceship]

Like, what about "Jam" as a song came across like a hit single? It just sounded dated. Nobody gave a crap about Heavy D in 1992, either.

The fact "In the Closet" only hit no.6 should've been a clue that the next single shouldn't have been one of the harder New jack swing songs, because clearly the public was getting bored of that sound. We had two New jack swing songs back to back ("Remember the Time" and "In the Closet"); should've switched it up for the next single.

 

[R1chard]

But it does matter that one got to no.21 "Jam") and another got to no.4 ("Give in to Me"). That's a 17-position difference.

Again, neither of them were a massive hit that went to #1 in every country. They were both in the category below, ie "did pretty well". Neither of them failed.

Also - I don't know how to break it to you - charts don't matter.

Nice backpedal lol

Huh? All I'm saying is they spent a lot of money on that video. No point in cancelling it. You're the one keeps talking about the song not being about basketball.

Explains your bias.

I guess?

I'm really struggling to understand what you want from me. Sony did what they did. It seemed to work pretty well. We can't change the past. Even if they did exactly what you want them to have done, it wouldn't have made any difference to anything.

I never said that.

So you'll quit the thread?

We had two New jack swing songs back to back

Nobody knows what that means. It's not a real thing. They were both dance songs. Dangerous was a dance album with a few different things thrown in like rock and gospel, all of which had their time to shine.

 

[Spaceship]

Neither if them failed.

Only "Jam" failed. Didn't even make the top 20 in the US or most of the Europe.

"Give in to Me" broke the top 10 in Australia and most of Europe.

All I'm saying is they spent a lot of money on that video. No point in cancelling it.

Shouldn't have done the video in the first place.

It's clear that MJ was relying too much on spectacle and not enough on the quality or commercial appeal to sell his albums.

 

[R1chard]

Ok. Just... Ok.

 

[DuranDuran]

But it does matter that one got to no.21 "Jam") and another got to no.4 ("Give in to Me"). That's a 17-position difference.

Chart positions don't always tell the popularity of a song. None of these songs were big Top 40 hits in the US when originally released. But they are more well known today than many #1s.

George Thorogood - Bad To The Bone
Bob Seger - Old Time Rock & Roll (partly because of a Tom Cruise movie)
AC/DC - Back In Black
Phil Collins - In The Air Tonight
Led Zeppelin - Stairway To Heaven
Stevie Wonder - Isn't She Lovely (wasn't released as a single, but got lots of radio airplay as an album track)
ZZ Top - La Grange
Yello - Oh Yeah

Also the US has many different radio formats, going by the Hot 100 doesn't mean anything. Top 40 is primarily targeted to teenagers and young adults. Acts like Rush, Garth Brooks, Pink Floyd, Black Sabbath/Ozzy Osbourne, Dixie Chicks, Kenny G, Beastie Boys, etc. had little Top 40 presence, but they sold lots of albums in the US. Garth Brooks is the biggest selling artist of the 1990s and he's a country singer. Since the 1990s, country music has been one of the most popular genres in the US. Right now it's hip hop and country, and a lot of current mainstream country has hip hop elements in it. Country has 2 or 3 different awards shows on regular network TV (ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox), no other genre has that. It's just the Grammys & AMAs which is all music.

 

[Spaceship]

Chart positions don't always tell the popularity of a song.

Generally, they do. If a song charts high, it's popular in the country.

Also the US has many different radio formats, going by the Hot 100 doesn't mean anything.

Hot 100 is the biggest chart that tells you the most popular songs in the country. In 1992, these were the singles that were selling and being played on the radio the most.

 

[Hot_Street]

Give in to Me would probably have been more in tune with the times, given Nirvana's success at the time. It would have been best to release the Give in to Me demo in the US.

 

[Spaceship]

Give in to Me would probably have been more in tune with the times, given Nirvana's success at the time. It would have been best to release the Give in to Me demo in the US.

No, not the demo lol.