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"Michael", a biopic about Michael Jackson, is officially happening.

It's sad to say, but the love Michael received from some of his fans was often more sincere than what he got from his so-called friends who ended up stabbing him in the back. His most loyal fans were there to support him through his darkest moments, so I can see why Michael appreciated that kind of love.
 
etoile 37 said:
It's sad to say, but the love Michael received from some of his fans was often more sincere than what he got from his so-called friends who ended up stabbing him in the back. His most loyal fans were there to support him through his darkest moments, so I can see why Michael appreciated that kind of love.
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I appreciate this sentiment but I think we as fans sometimes forget that the ones who stabbed him in the back were also fans at some point (take for example the likes of JC, GA, WR, JS and let's not forget those Cascios!).

And like I said earlier, I do not in any way fault MJ for thinking like this.
 
jasmine.uddin said:
'I think all my success and fame and I have wanted it, I have wanted it because I wanted to be loved'.

His words. He clearly confused success with love.

The problem with standing in front of ten thousands of people cheering and confusing it for love, is that if people then turn around and criticise you, then that person is in danger of interpreting the response as the opposite of love.

Fame and success is a numbers game that reflects the effectiveness of a particular product/brand. It is not something static and fixed, it is fluid and evolving, it is a measure of material/commercial success and is dependent on many external factors, it is not an appropriate or even a reliable barometer for love.

It's like the modern day equivalent of saying however many likes you have on a post, or however many friends you have on Facebook is a measure of how loved you are. It maybe a measure of how popular you/your posts currently are, but its a dangerous game you play with yourself if it is where you derive your perception of love, especially as it concerns people that don't even really know you.
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Your words are wise and you know what you are talking about.
I would add though it is about semantics. Saying he "confused" makes it sound as if he had been one of the few. However, I am convinced he was one of the many. I would even go as far as saying the majority does the same, especially in today's society.

It is difficult to have other priorities when those are never taught to you. How could he have been different after such an upbringing?!

I still think I would have worded it like him looking for a surrogate.
 
jasmine.uddin said:
'I think all my success and fame and I have wanted it, I have wanted it because I wanted to be loved'.

His words. He clearly confused success with love.

The problem with standing in front of ten thousands of people cheering and confusing it for love, is that if people then turn around and criticise you, then that person is in danger of interpreting the response as the opposite of love.

Fame and success is a numbers game that reflects the effectiveness of a particular product/brand. It is not something static and fixed, it is fluid and evolving, it is a measure of material/commercial success and is dependent on many external factors, it is not an appropriate or even a reliable barometer for love.

It's like the modern day equivalent of saying however many likes you have on a post, or however many friends you have on Facebook is a measure of how loved you are. It maybe a measure of how popular you/your posts currently are, but its a dangerous game you play with yourself if it is where you derive your perception of love, especially as it concerns people that don't even really know you.
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That sentence doesn't have to mean that he confused love with fame/success. When you are neglected as a kid in any way, you often try to achieve great things to be seen by others. That's not because you don't know what real love is, it's just trying to fill that hole. It's the next best thing you can do.

Also he got attention from his father when he was successful, so again: not really love, but the next best thing.

As Michael was a very intelligent person who read a lot of books, I am sure he knew that. You can't assume what you are saying only by this one sentence. That would need a psychologic evaluation by a professional.
 
Billie Jean 78 said:
Your words are wise and you know what you are talking about.
I would add though it is about semantics. Saying he "confused" makes it sound as if he had been one of the few. However, I am convinced he was one of the many. I would even go as far as saying the majority does the same, especially in today's society.

It is difficult to have other priorities when those are never taught to you. How could he have been different after such an upbringing?!

I still think I would have worded it like him looking for a surrogate.
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I agree that MJ is not in the minority for looking for love in the wrong places, we are all guilty of doing this at some point in our lives. Where I think MJ is in the minority is that he went about achieving world wide fame and success for this sole objective.

I can see my wording has caused some issues, but surrogacy suggests substitution, and substitution requires an adequate replacement, and my argument is that fame and success could never have been an adequate substitution for love, owing to the fact one is measured on standardised metrics and the other is not. And I suspect this type of thinking led to some pain.

I have said a couple of times now that however flawed I feel this thinking is, I in no way blame MJ for reaching this conclusion, as it may have been the only logical conclusion to reach from his perspective.

PS, thank you for your kind words at the beginning.
 
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someplace_else said:
That sentence doesn't have to mean that he confused love with fame/success. When you are neglected as a kid in any way, you often try to achieve great things to be seen by others. That's not because you don't know what real love is, it's just trying to fill that hole. It's the next best thing you can do.

Also he got attention from his father when he was successful, so again: not really love, but the next best thing.

As Michael was a very intelligent person who read a lot of books, I am sure he knew that. You can't assume what you are saying only by this one sentence. That would need a psychologic evaluation by a professional.
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I can see my wording has bothered you.

So my interpretation of the words:

' I think all my fame and success and I have wanted it, I have wanted it because I wanted to be loved'.

Is that he 'confused fame and success for love' and this is considered by you an assumption, but your interpretation of this sentence as:

'When you are neglected as a kid in any way, you often try to achieve great things to be seen by others. That's not because you don't know what real love is, it's just trying to fill that hole. It's the next best thing you can do.'

Is any less of an assumption?

I have no doubt that MJ was highly intelligent, but love is not something one can logic ones way through with books.

He claimed in his own words that he wanted fame and success for the sole purpose of being loved, I find that sad because I think it would have been a painful way to interpret love, and I hope he reached a stage in his life where he wasn't interpreting love through such a difficult way.

If my wording continues to bother you, then I suggest we should agree to disagree, as I think we risk going round in circles at this point.
 
jasmine.uddin said:
I can see my wording has bothered you.

So my interpretation of the words:

' I think all my fame and success and I have wanted it, I have wanted it because I wanted to be loved'.

Is that he 'confused fame and success for love' and this is considered by you an assumption, but your interpretation of this sentence as:

'When you are neglected as a kid in any way, you often try to achieve great things to be seen by others. That's not because you don't know what real love is, it's just trying to fill that hole. It's the next best thing you can do.'

Is any less of an assumption?

I have no doubt that MJ was highly intelligent, but love is not something one can logic ones way through with books.

He claimed in his own words that he wanted fame and success for the sole purpose of being loved, I find that sad because I think it would have been a painful way to interpret love, and I hope he reached a stage in his life where he wasn't interpreting love through such a difficult way.

If my wording continues to bother you, then I suggest we should agree to disagree, as I think we risk going round in circles at this point.
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My main problem is that you write it as it was a fact. "He confused fame with love". But you don't know that, you assume it.

That's why I wrote "it doesn't have to mean" and "often try to (not always try to)..." etc.

So basically, you assume he did, I assume he didn't and on that I can agree to disagree with you 😁.
 
jasmine.uddin said:
I find this quote tragically sad, that he confused fame and success for love. And I wonder if he ever learned to differentiate between the two.
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jasmine.uddin said:
As MJ made no references to his father or his mother in the above mentioned quote, his reasons remain unclear and thus we can only speculate. And looking for a surrogate love through fame and success still makes it a misplaced love.

What is clear is that MJ states in his own words that he related fame and success to love, and he stated this to Rabbi Schmuley as a fully grown man in his 40s. He isn't particularly referencing his early career, he is reflecting on 'all' his fame and success. He has been married twice and had kids by this time. Interestingly, he doesn't note anything that indicates it used to be an old pattern of thinking, which leaves the probability that he may still have had a warped view of mistaking fame and success for love at the time of this quote. It's not like he said 'I used to think that was the way to be loved/I now know that was the wrong way to look at it'.

I find this sad. I do not say this as any criticism of MJ, and this may well have been a logical conclusion for him to reach given the very unique circumstances he grew up in.
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If you misinterpreted my views as fact then that's on you. I shared my views on a topic, which is generally what discussion forums are for.

What does remain a fact is that MJ said he wanted fame and success for love, you can skirt around that all you want but that is what he clearly stated.

But yes, let's agree to disagree.
 
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jasmine.uddin said:
If you misinterpreted my views as fact then that's on you. I shared my views on a topic, which is generally what discussion forums are for.

What does remain a fact is that MJ said he wanted fame and success for love, you can skirt around that all you want but that is what he clearly stated.

But yes, let's agree to disagree.
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Let’s turn it around a bit.
And please be so kind and answer these questions honestly (I‘ll answer them myself).

• How You became aware of MJ?
(I myself through is craft/art/work & which through his success he was able to make globally appreciated)

• How would You consider yourself in regards to MJ and his work/art/craft?
(I myself see me as a fan/admirer/enthusiast/connoisseur)

• Would You say You love MJ‘s work?
(I do. There aren’t many things I love more. And that constantly for far over 30 years now.)

• Would You say You love MJ?
(I do, very much. For his craft and art. And for way more as that. For his humanity, personality, humor etc. I love him as an artist & as a human being.)

• Wouldn’t You say he succeeded in his endeavor?
(I would. He was loved by the masses. He is still loved by the masses. In every little corner of the world.)

Of course this is a love which you can’t compare to the love your partner, your children, relatives or friends.
But it’s love nevertheless.
 
MJJuniorSinceMW said:
Let’s turn it around a bit.
And please be so kind and answer these questions honestly (I‘ll answer them myself).

• How You became aware of MJ?
(I myself through is craft/art/work & which through his success he was able to make globally appreciated)

• How would You consider yourself in regards to MJ and his work/art/craft?
(I myself see me as a fan/admirer/enthusiast/connoisseur)

• Would You say You love MJ‘s work?
(I do. There aren’t many things I love more. And that constantly for far over 30 years now.)

• Would You say You love MJ?
(I do, very much. For his craft and art. And for way more as that. For his humanity, personality, humor etc. I love him as an artist & as a human being.)

• Wouldn’t You say he succeeded in his endeavor?
(I would. He was loved by the masses. He is still loved by the masses. In every little corner of the world.)

Of course this is a love which you can’t compare to the love your partner, your children, relatives or friends.
But it’s love nevertheless.
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I don't really appreciate being singled out like this, I think I have given detailed, valid explanations for my reasonings, and if you can't or are unwilling to understand them, then it's not my problem.

But in response to your post, I will say something which may further upset some fans, but since the last round of derailed posts I feel the need to clarify that these are my thoughts and opinions, incase anyone mistakes them as me stating facts.

I am a MJ fan, but I am also very aware that as a fan of his music, I can only really love the idea of MJ the person, as I never personally knew him. I can say I developed these ideas from appreciating his music, but I still believe that my affection for him is limited within the confines of a person I never firsthand saw or met. Therefore this makes it in no way comparable to the love I experience from loved ones in my life.
I can say I contributed to his success by purchasing MJ related products, but that doesn't mean the average consumer of such products will regard MJ more than a great artist.
And although I appreciate that you are trying to make the argument that MJ did gain love through his fame and success, I feel you are missing my point entirely about it being a problematic way to derive ones perception of love. Many people loved his music, his success accounts for that, but that doesn't automatically mean they loved him as a person. I feel that's a necessary distinction.

I am very aware that I have played a part in derailing a thread, I send my apologies to those who are likely fed up of reading about this by now, and as I don't think it's fair on others to derail it any more than it has been, I will no longer respond to any posts pertaining to this matter on this thread.

Now if you or others reading my post have further issues with my comments, please feel free to PM me about it instead of derailing this thread further, I am always willing to engage in conversation. But I will not have my views minimised by those who want to police how I interpret things because they struggle to grasp differing view points regarding MJ.
 
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I want to add a nuance to the "love-fame-confusion" interpretation, which I find important: Michael actively and consciously reflected on his strive to use fame as a surrogate for love by this quote. So I would conclude that he was aware of the difference and the mistake, but he might (or might not) have continued to confuse both because he might have been unable to change that unconscious behavior.
So now I had my fair share in derailing this thread 😉 just because I found that debate interesting
 
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