Controversial MJ Documentary Leaving Neverland [GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD]

[somewhereinthedark]

I watched the first part of the documentary on channel 4 and actually really enjoyed seeing the rare footage of Michael and candid pictures.

With that being said, I really struggled through the graphic parts. I knew what to expect but it had made me feeling a bit sick. It is absolutely disgusting and horrific that these allegedly happened.

I still think it is extremely inappropriate the way Michael behaved around children and the staying in his bedroom part is always gonna raise concerns.

It also makes me feel uncomfortable looking back on footage with Michael holding all these boys hands, Wade, James, Brett , Jordy etc.

I’d like to think Michael was innocent but it without a doubt does make you really question certain aspects of his life.

Wow, it makes you uncomfortable to see Meholding all these BOYS hands. Why didn’t you feel uncomfortable when you saw him holding a GIRL in his arms, the little sister of the first accuser, Jordan Chandler. I noticed twice the media never mentione ths. They want to make gullible people believe he was only around boys. I have actually seen photos where they edited out the girls in the pants s. It is so easy to be MANIPULATED by the biased media. They have an agenda. There were as many girls around him as boys and he held their hands also. Btw, I hold children’s hands also, does that make me a $&&*$& pedophile?

It is sick to make something sexual out of holding a CHILD ‘S hand, because of the lies from these pieces of scum.
It’s only inappropriate if a person is a sick pervert and Michael was not that. IMO,the perverts are the ones who made these accusations. I would have trusted a child of mine with Michael a hundred times more than I would with Wade Robson, James Safechuck or Dan Reed. I wouldn’t trust a child of mine to even be in the same room as them. The graphic fantasies that Robson and SAfechuck used in this fraudomentary should even put their wives on alert about their own children.

 

[aqwsz]

Wow, it makes you uncomfortable to see Meholding all these BOYS hands. Why didn’t you feel uncomfortable when you saw him holding a GIRL in his arms, the little sister of the first accuser, Jordan Chandler. I noticed twice the media never mentione ths. They want to make gullible people believe he was only around boys. I have actually seen photos where they edited out the girls in the pants s. It is so easy to be MANIPULATED by the biased media. They have an agenda. There were as many girls around him as boys and he held their hands also. Btw, I hold children’s hands also, does that make me a $&&*$& pedophile?

It is sick to make something sexual out of holding a CHILD ‘S hand, because of the lies from these pieces of scum.
It’s only inappropriate if a person is a sick pervert and Michael was not that. IMO,the perverts are the ones who made these accusations. I would have trusted a child of mine with Michael a hundred times more than I would with Wade Robson, James Safechuck or Dan Reed. I wouldn’t trust a child of mine to even be in the same room as them. The graphic fantasies that Robson and SAfechuck used in this fraudomentary should even put their wives on alert about their own children.

He doesn't mean it's bad holding kids' hands but he means it is bad that he holds kids's hands that he might have abused... Try to read.

Also you'd better not trust strangers with your kids. You're now diverting the accusations onto the alleged victims. That doesn't sound right.

 

[magic]

He doesn't mean it's bad holding kids' hands but he means it is bad that he holds kids's hands that he might have abused... Try to read.

Maybe I misunderstood something, then sorry. But I don't see a difference. I am confused about "might have". Either you did or you didn't. And I believe he didn't so I base my thoughts on that.

 

[magic]

Wow, it makes you uncomfortable to see Meholding all these BOYS hands. Why didn’t you feel uncomfortable when you saw him holding a GIRL in his arms, the little sister of the first accuser, Jordan Chandler. I noticed twice the media never mentione ths. They want to make gullible people believe he was only around boys. I have actually seen photos where they edited out the girls in the pants s. It is so easy to be MANIPULATED by the biased media. They have an agenda. There were as many girls around him as boys and he held their hands also. Btw, I hold children’s hands also, does that make me a $&&*$& pedophile?

It is sick to make something sexual out of holding a CHILD ‘S hand, because of the lies from these pieces of scum.
It’s only inappropriate if a person is a sick pervert and Michael was not that. IMO,the perverts are the ones who made these accusations. I would have trusted a child of mine with Michael a hundred times more than I would with Wade Robson, James Safechuck or Dan Reed. I wouldn’t trust a child of mine to even be in the same room as them. The graphic fantasies that Robson and SAfechuck used in this fraudomentary should even put their wives on alert about their own children.

That is what I was trying to say as well.

 

[aqwsz]

Maybe I misunderstood something, then sorry. But I don't see a difference. I am confused about "might have". Either you did or you didn't. And I believe he didn't so I base my thoughts on that.

Well it's not literally what he says but I tried to read between the lines. I shouldn't have written the "try to read" part, sounds offensive, I am sorry.
I used "might have" because he has doubts.

 

[AG5050]

Haven’t read it all but are people here doubting MJ? Over THIS?!?

It’s bizarre isn’t it. I don’t know what people expected to hear or feel when they watched it but we all knew what it contained.
Listening to the Arvisos testify at the 2005 trial would probably have caused the same reaction in them if it had been televised.
What people are watching is a film with an agenda, it’s not live testimonies, it’s a film made up of as many shots and takes as it needed to convince everyone that these things happened.
If I’m completely honest I don’t think any of us can say with 100% certainty that they are definitely lying, just as NOBODY can say with any sort of certainty that they did.
At the end of the day Michael is not here to defend himself so ALL anyone has to go on is the testimony of these two men, a small amount of research shows that these are not credible witnesses and for any rational thinker that should be enough to shed significant doubt over the validity of the documentary.
These allegations also date back to 2013, why are these people only now doubting Michael. Because they watched a piece of propaganda?

For people doubting here are the questions I would ask yourself:

- Why did they go for a lawsuit for money rather than push for a public outing initially.

- Why does the documentary completely neglect to mention the lawsuit and on going appeal.

- Why does the documentary portray them as 2 separate testimonies when we all know that they share the same legal team and lawyers and are in this together.

- Why the HELL would Michael and his defence team use Wade as the lead defence witness if this abuse happened. Sure you could argue Michael had him brainwashed but Wade was an adult when he testified in the 2005 trial. That is one hell of a risky move to allow him to be cross examined by the prosecution if he had abused him. If Wade told one ounce of the “truth” on the stand that would have been game over for Michael. Life in prison. Would Michael really have risked that?

 

[AlwaysThere]

Not sure if it's been posted here yet (I'm about 30 pages behind), but Daily Mail just came out swinging.

They published never-before-seen photos of James Safechuck Sr.'s 1994 deposition, which is (to my understanding) the first piece of documentation to come out of the 1994 grand jury deliberations.

One section sticks out to me as a potential firestorm:

ATTORNEY: Okay. But now, on this first occasions, were you ever in the room when your son indicated that he had been kissed by Michael Jackson?
SAFECHUCK SR.: Yes.
ATTORNEY: When did that occur if you say that the interview was being done out of your presence?
SAFECHUCK SR.: After, I think, the policeman asked me.
ATTORNEY: Can you describe what happened?
SAFECHUCK SR.: And I think I responded, "Yes. I kissed him too. I kiss my children. I kiss everybody. And I see nothing wrong with that."
ATTORNEY: Well, were you present when your son indicated or stated to the police detectives that Michael Jackson kissed him on the lips?
SAFECHUCK SR.: No.
ATTORNEY: Did the detectives inform you that's what your son had indicated?
SAFECHUCK SR.: Yes.
ATTORNEY: And what did you say to the police detectives at that time?
SAFECHUCK SR.: Just what I told you prior.
ATTORNEY: That what?
SAFECHUCK SR.: That there was nothing wrong with that.

This suggests that Jimmy Safechuck's statement to police, which remains unreleased, potentially includes a confession that he and Michael Jackson have kissed each other on the lips.

Now, I understand the '93 police officers were hardly upstanding citizens and were known for using aggression and scare tactics to coerce confessions and comments out of children and families, but this is bad. Like, really bad.

 

[myosotis]

I read that Reed cut this film down to 4 hours from 40 hours of tape.

I'm wondering if the other 36 hours consist of R and S failing to keep a straight face while spouting this garbage....

 

[magic]

He doesn't mean it's bad holding kids' hands but he means it is bad that he holds kids's hands that he might have abused... Try to read.

Also you'd better not trust strangers with your kids. You're now diverting the accusations onto the alleged victims. That doesn't sound right.

Michael was not a stranger to those children and families. You are thinking about somebody else if it wouldn't be Michael but somebody else you would read in the Internet, a stranger to you. Forgetting that they were actually spending time together and traveling. They got to know each other.

 

[aqwsz]

Michael was not a stranger to those children and families. You are thinking about somebody else if it wouldn't be Michael but somebody else you would read in the Internet, a stranger to you. Forgetting that they were actually spending time together and traveling. They got to know each other.

true.

 

[myosotis]

Not sure if it's been posted here yet (I'm about 30 pages behind), but Daily Mail just came out swinging.

They published never-before-seen photos of James Safechuck Sr.'s 1994 deposition, which is (to my understanding) the first piece of documentation to come out of the 1994 grand jury deliberations.

One section sticks out to me as a potential firestorm:



This suggests that Jimmy Safechuck's statement to police, which remains unreleased, potentially includes a confession that he and Michael Jackson have kissed each other on the lips.

Now, I understand the '93 police officers were hardly upstanding citizens and were known for using aggression and scare tactics to coerce confessions and comments out of children and families, but this is bad. Like, really bad.

Michael kissed lots of people that way, and also Bubbles.... it's possibly a generational thing. I remember it being much more common before cheek or air kissing became the thing.

 

[aqwsz]

I read that Reed cut this film down to 4 hours from 40 hours of tape.

I'm wondering if the other 36 hours consist of R and S failing to keep a straight face while spouting this garbage....

40 hours is a lot, more fuel for thought imo

 

[Dudex]

i found that this hand holding thing reminds me more of a parent behavior, i'm pretty sure MJ felt responsible for any kid being around him

 

[aqwsz]

Michael kissed lots of people that way, and also Bubbles.... it's possibly a generational thing. I remember it being much more common before cheek or air kissing became the thing.

Possibly a generational thing but if that gets to the press... It are different times now.

 

[somewhereinthedark]

IM0, the fans having doubts about these accusers, surely have not been following the FACTS and evidence against them. How could anyone believe the liars, even with the graphic lies 5ey are spewing. Sorry, a person would have to be really weak to believe that Wade was abused EVERY night for hundreds of nights and didn’t have to go to the hospital. Even a porn star wouldn’t have been able to withstand that type of sex. It’s amazing how some of you are so eager to accept these liars, because of their graphic lies. Use your common sense to decipher what these liars are saying. Safechuck actually said that he slept through one supposed episode and didn’t know it had happened, until Michael woke him i next morning and told him what he did. Is anyone dumb enough to believe that crap? If you are having doubts about Micharl after hearing pathetic acting like that, then maybe you need to take a break, a permanent break, from being a Michael fan.

Btw, I don’t want to hear anyone tell me I am overreacting. I am just angry that any FAN would ha e doubts about Michael’s innocence, after seeing the pathetic acting and Script that these two regurgitated. Most of their lies came from sick mind of Victor Guitterez’s book, almost verbatim.

Nothing these two said have given me even a semblance of doubt. Any AWARE fan can take every single thing that claimed, apart. I bet these two are laughing their ass off at how easy it is to fool people with fake acting, tears and graphic descriptions. If that’s all it takes to sucker in gullible people, it’s fair game for anyone to do the same.

 

[MJ_IS_INNOCENT19]

Deleted

 

[analogue]

Raz0rfist is going to be on a live stream discussing LN

 

[MJ_IS_INNOCENT19]

Deleted

 

[AlwaysThere]

Michael kissed lots of people that way, and also Bubbles.... it's possibly a generational thing. I remember it being much more common before cheek or air kissing became the thing.

You're right. But that's not how current society will view it.

Some people found the faux interview with Safechuck to be creepy (even though it was as innocent as innocent gets). Others were put off by the supposed "love faxes" and "nicknames" (even though Jackson sent similar letters and used similar nicknames to everyone from grown adults to his own family members).

Pre-2019 accusations of him kissing one of his accusers on the lips will be shamed.

 

[somewhereinthedark]

i found that this hand holding thing reminds me more of a parent behavior, i'm pretty sure MJ felt responsible for any kid being around him

I agree 1000%. I can’t understand why holding a CHILD’s hand equates with sex. How w disgusting!!!

 

[aqwsz]

IM0, the fans having doubts about these accusers, surely have not been following the FACTS and evidence against them. How could anyone believe the liars, even with the graphic lies 5ey are spewing. Sorry, a person would have to be really weak to believe that Wade was abused EVERY night for hundreds of nights and didn’t have to go to the hospital. Even a porn star wouldn’t have been able to withstand that type of sex. It’s amazing how some of you are so eager to accept these liars, because of their graphic lies. Use your common sense to decipher what these liars are saying. Safechuck actually said that he slept through one supposed episode and didn’t know it had happened, until Michael woke him i next morning and told him what he did. Is anyone dumb enough to believe that crap? If you are having doubts about Micharl after hearing pathetic acting like that, then maybe you need to take a break, a permanent break, from being a Michael fan.

Btw, I don’t want to hear anyone tell me I am overreacting. I am just angry that any FAN would ha e doubts about Michael’s innocence, after seeing the pathetic acting and Script that these two regurgitated. Most of their lies came from sick mind of Victor Guitterez’s book, almost verbatim.

Nothing these two said have given me even a semblance of doubt. Any AWARE fan can take every single thing that claimed, apart. I bet these two are laughing their ass off at how easy it is to fool people with fake acting, tears and graphic descriptions. If that’s all it takes to sucker in gullible people, it’s fair game for anyone to do the same.

I haven't seen LV but I read a lot about it. From what I understand Michael was very gentle and sweet during the "episodes". I don't see how you would need to visit a doctor after that? I know Robson says he tried anal sex on him but he didn't like it and he stopped.
I don't believe his hundreds of times line either but even if it was just once it would stil be horrible wrong.

 

[mysterygirl7]

I watched the first part of the documentary on channel 4 and actually really enjoyed seeing the rare footage of Michael and candid pictures.

With that being said, I really struggled through the graphic parts. I knew what to expect but it had made me feeling a bit sick. It is absolutely disgusting and horrific that these allegedly happened.

I still think it is extremely inappropriate the way Michael behaved around children and the staying in his bedroom part is always gonna raise concerns.

It also makes me feel uncomfortable looking back on footage with Michael holding all these boys hands, Wade, James, Brett , Jordy etc.

I’d like to think Michael was innocent but it without a doubt does make you really question certain aspects of his life.

This post makes me feel uncomfortable....

 

[Lightbringer]

Well, I was wondering about he 1994 grand jury procedings just today and asked if they were ever leaked. And of course grand jury transcripts should NEVER be leaked since it can damage a persons reputation that was NOT charged with any crime. But when it comes to Michael Jackson everything goes out of the door. UNREAL!

I am pretty much expecting someone to created a fake old VHS tape that depicts a impersonator in Jackson clothes do something to a child. And it would not matter if no one could say if it were Michael or not, everyone would believe it. I am sure the time will come.

 

[Blondie]

I don't know exaclt what was said about anal sex, I thought one of them had implied that had happened regularly? Or maybe Dan said it? SOmething about it feeling good...I mean...I'm an adult and I find anal sex too painful, how is it phsycially possible for that to feel good to a child? Anyway...moving on.

Those on the last few pages who expressed feeling about Michaels behaviour around kids, I think its fine to acknowledge that certain things weren't really ok. For me I think that Michael had some deep problems, a lost childhood can result in heightened needs to be like a child, also nurture others, perhaps children or animals etc. Maybe thats where Michael's philanthropy comes in, its wonderful but you can become dependant it for self worth. I think his need to care for and physically nurture others went to an unhealthy place, but this is where people assume sex/fetish must come in...and thats where I'm not so sure. I just don't see it personally

 

[DDam]

I still think it is extremely inappropriate the way Michael behaved around children and the staying in his bedroom part is always gonna raise concerns.

It also makes me feel uncomfortable looking back on footage with Michael holding all these boys hands, Wade, James, Brett , Jordy etc.

I’d like to think Michael was innocent but it without a doubt does make you really question certain aspects of his life.

You only thought of this now? what do you mean 'the way Michael behaved around children ' - are you talking about sexual allegations , doesn't sound like it so something else? what? About staying in his bedroom. What did you think of kids staying in his bedroom before? Did you believe when Mac and others said they'd just fall asleep where they'd been watching movies and stuff? What did you think of hand holding before? Do you care about anyone else hand holding or is it only because of what these two have said in the film?

 

[Scream]

Sharing your bed with kids who aren't related to you as a grown man is weird and trying to defend it is pointless. I don't care what Michael said, he should've known better, especially how it would appear to outsiders.
I don't believe for one second that he had any sexual motive behind it, but he still shouldn't have done it.

 

[AlwaysThere]

I am pretty much expecting someone to created a fake old VHS tape that depicts a impersonator in Jackson clothes do something to a child. And it would not matter if no one could say if it were Michael or not, everyone would believe it. I am sure the time will come.

Expect that to happen any day now.

I saw a post from an MJ impersonator (I'll try to find it) who said he was offered several thousand dollars to participate in a photo shoot that looked as though he was abusing children. He turned it down, but not all people are as strong-willed.

I don't know exaclt what was said about anal sex, I thought one of them had implied that had happened regularly? Or maybe Dan said it? SOmething about it feeling good...I mean...I'm an adult and I find anal sex too painful, how is it phsycially possible for that to feel good to a child? Anyway...moving on.

From what I remember, Robson said that penetrative anal sex was attempted once but was too painful. His underwear wound up covered in blood and was quickly disposed.

 

[Cinnamon234]

Why do some of you keep stating that "even if it happened once it's wrong". Yeah I mean that's pretty much stating the obvious.

Do some of you really believe that those of us supporting Michael would be willing to overlook him sexually abusing a kid "only" one time? Insulting to say the least. And that's not how pedos operate anyway.

Do I think the sleepovers were wrong? Yes. I don't like to see pics and video of MJ holding hands with these kids either because of how it looks now after these allegations. Actually I never liked it since the trial because it just gives people more to talk about and adds more fuel to the fire.


Ultimately, I just don't believe he was in touch with reality. He was stubborn. He didn't listen when the likes of Frank Dileo warned him that one day he'd be accused of something.

I don't believe he was guilty however. He was trying to relive the childhood he always wanted to have imo.

I just wish none of this happened. Now he has left behind a mess for his family, estate and fans to deal with thanks to poor judgment and stubbornness on his part.

What's done is done though and I'm not gonna fall for the bs those two are trying to sell. This is all being done in hopes they can win their appeal against the estate.

 

[Glanni]

Wade wrote a book and found no publisher when he came out with the alligations? Do we have the book? Or didnt he even start writing it...?

 

[DDam]

You're right. But that's not how current society will view it.

Some people found the faux interview with Safechuck to be creepy (even though it was as innocent as innocent gets). Others were put off by the supposed "love faxes" and "nicknames" (even though Jackson sent similar letters and used similar nicknames to everyone from grown adults to his own family members).

Pre-2019 accusations of him kissing one of his accusers on the lips will be shamed.

Well read what Safechuck's dad said in the extract you posted. That's his freakin dad. And there's worse to worry about, no-one will even care or notice about a kiss on the lips when it is waaaay down the list of seriousness when it comes to the explicit and shocking allegations in this film. I never even knew James testified anything. From the 90s? What was all this from? Jordan Chandler stuff? did he say anything else? Any of the explicit stuff mentioned in this film?