If Michael's career happened sooner, what would his legacy be like today?

[filmandmusic]

Well, imo it's tricky. Nat King Cole gained a white audience. So did Harry Belafonte. So did Teddy Pendergrass with his 10 consecutive platinum albums. I'm not saying Michael isn't part of that story. Sometimes it feels like people (not you, just talking in general terms) think that Michael was the first to do that. I'm not so sure he was. Of course he deserves credit. But there were people who paved the way long before Michael was even born. I don't see what's so terrible about pointing that out and, for me, it's not being disrespectful to Michael, it's just acknowledging the history of this whole thing.

I never said he was the first or the only one, back in ancient history there were most likely people breaking barriers as well. Michael however gets almost no credit for anything but “he is a good dancer”.

Well, it wouldn't be. And that doesn't mean that Michael is being reduced to being a mere pawn. I argued the exact opposite of that, actually. Michael and Quincy, two geniuses together, created a masterpiece. That's the point I made. Can't speak for anyone else in that thread but that was my point.

We don’t know that do we? But we heard the MJ tracks Michael wrote before Quincy got involved, it is not very different. It is nothing that another producer wouldn’t be able to do. What if Stevie Wonder produced thriller? It could have been equally good

Well, I didn't say that. I'm trying to place his contribution into a historical context. Bc that's important, imo. I don't understand what's so terrible about that.

To me it felt like undermining Michael’s influence

 

[zinniabooklover]

To me it felt like undermining Michael’s influence

Well, that wasn't my intention and, as far as I'm concerned, I didn't do that. As a Black woman, the history of this thing is really important to me. It's a tricky history to get to grips with. I'm always going to acknowledge the achievements of the people who went before Michael and I simply don't see it as undermining or diluting what he achieved.

 

[filmandmusic]

Well, that wasn't my intention and, as far as I'm concerned, I didn't do that. As a Black woman, the history of this thing is really important to me. It's a tricky history to get to grips with. I'm always going to acknowledge the achievements of the people who went before Michael and I simply don't see it as undermining or diluting what he achieved.

Good because I was just about going to ignore you.


just kidding

 

[filmandmusic]

Everybody thinks they got it pegged don't they.

yeah true. It’s funny I hate debating

 

[DuranDuran]

Completely disagree, music isn’t segregated at all. Music festivals have artists playing of any genres. Concert goers have no problem going to Tomorrowland, Glastonbury or a Bruce springsteen concert in one summer.

How many Black or Mexican people do you see at a Metallica concert? How many white people do you see at a Johnny Gill or Jill Scott concert? Very few in both cases. With hip hop, you'll see mixed audiences because that is mainstream "pop music" today. As far as festivals go, how many non-Black people go to the Essence Festival? Why is the Soul Train Awards only shown on BET, but country music has 2 or 3 different award shows on regular mainstream network TV? The Grammys & AMAs are also on network TV. How is it traditional ethnic music is labeled "world music"? All music is made in the world.

 

[zinniabooklover]

Everybody thinks they got it pegged don't they.

Actually, I really don't think I've got it pegged. That's why I like to try to get at the history of it all.

 

[filmandmusic]

How many Black or Mexican people do you see at a Metallica concert?

I don’t know, depends on where they do a concert I guess, in a predominantly white country, black people aren’t going to be in the majority.

How many white people do you see at a Johnny Gill or Jill Scott concert? Very few in both cases. With hip hop, you'll see mixed audiences because that is mainstream "pop music" today.

It’s good you point that out because we are talking about mainstream audiences here, not some underground music style.

As far as festivals go, how many non-Black people go to the Essence Festival?

Never heard of Essence festival

Why is the Soul Train Awards only shown on BET, but country music has 2 or 3 different award shows on regular mainstream network TV? The Grammys & AMAs are also on network TV.

I don’t know man, it’s probably because the US is still the world’s biggest backwards country

How is it traditional ethnic music is labeled "world music"? All music is made in the world.

I think it is a great term

 

[DuranDuran]

I don’t know, depends on where they do a concert I guess, in a predominantly white country, black people aren’t going to be in the majority.

It’s good you point that out because we are talking about mainstream audiences here, not some underground music style.

Never heard of Essence festival

I don’t know man, it’s probably because the US is still the world’s biggest backwards country

I think it is a great term

You just proved what I mentioned above, when I said the mainstream could not accept R&B. Johnny Gill & Jill Scott are R&B, and you just said it was an "underground music style", lol.

 

[Agonum]

https://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/11/arts/ray-charles-bluesy-essence-of-soul-is-dead-at-73.html

 

[filmandmusic]

You just proved what I mentioned above, when I said the mainstream could not accept R&B. Johnny Gill & Jill Scott are R&B, and you just said it was an "underground music style", lol.

I don’t even know who they are but if it pleases you so much to be intellectually right all the time, be my guest.

 

[mj_frenzy]

You don’t understand, he broke barriers by being accepted by the white public as a musical genius. it is not about crossing over to pop radio imo. He was seen as a sell out by the r&b crowd and he didn’t care because it doesn’t matter, music is universal and it doesn’t matter if you’re black or white, that is the barrier he broke. He didn’t want to be put in boxes so he made music that black artists weren‘t supposed to make. He was not going to be that black artist forever, he was going to be THE artist. Michael was decades ahead of his time. He had an equal amount of white and black fans, an equal amount of adults and kids, an equal amount of male and female. He had males breaking down in tears in front of him. He broke every pre conceived box in music history.

And what do we have now? Kids loving every genre, now it is accepted to love both punk and disco Michael jackson made that possible

It was basically because of Berry Gordy (founder of Motown) who persuaded Michael Jackson to make also some crossover music (i.e., music with a universal appeal).

But Michael Jackson's music was generally black music simply because his main producers (during his career) were all black, for example:

- Quincy Jones is black

- Teddy Riley is black

- Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis are black

- Babyface is black

- Rodney Jerkins is black

Basically in this hypothetical, he would just be born in early 1940s instead and he starts his music career two decades before he actually did. How would Michael Jackson be revered today?

Michael Jackson would have been less popular and less successful mainly because of the absence of the American cable channel MTV during his early adult career.

For his commercial success, Michael Jackson used to rely heavily on the power of his music videos that were being played mostly on MTV (which was founded in 1981).

For example, it was his 'Thriller' music video that when it began to be played on MTV, then sales of his 'Thriller' album started to increase again.

 

[Blues_Away2023]

Michael and Quincy were as important as each other during the creation of Off The Wall, Thriller and BAD.

These albums would simply not exist without one or the other. The two together along with the like of Bruce Swedien were a match made in heaven.

Some MJ fans don't like Q due to comments he's made but we need to acknowledge the huge contribution that he made. Michael and Quincy made history together.

Michael was a legendary talent who changed the world. Quincy was a legendary producer who helped Michael change the world.

 

[zinniabooklover]

Michael and Quincy were as important as each other during the creation of Off The Wall, Thriller and BAD.

These albums would simply not exist without one or the other. The two together along with the like of Bruce Swedien were a match made in heaven.

This is essentially the point I've been trying to make. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

 

[Blues_Away2023]

This is essentially the point I've been trying to make. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Crazy to think that without Quincy, there would be no Rod Temperton songs , the Thriller (starlight) title and song would not exist and neither would the thriller music video which then sky rocketed the album sales even further

 

[DuranDuran]

But Michael Jackson's music was generally black music simply because his main producers (during his career) were all black, for example:

So is The Wiz a white movie since it had a white director?

 

[zinniabooklover]

So is The Wiz a white movie since it had a white director?

I think you're on to something. Carmen Jones must be a white film bc Otto Preminger was the producer and director.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

No it's not, that's why the mainstream could not accept R&B/funk (The Jacksons, Funkadelic, Maze), but could accept Whitney Houston's music. That's also why there are like 500 different charts in Billboard today. That wasn't the case decades ago. Music is more segregated now than it's ever been.

Segregation is a horrible word to use to describe it. Mostly connotation wise. It's simpler to say it's more diverse.

How many Black or Mexican people do you see at a Metallica concert? How many white people do you see at a Johnny Gill or Jill Scott concert? Very few in both cases. With hip hop, you'll see mixed audiences because that is mainstream "pop music" today. As far as festivals go, how many non-Black people go to the Essence Festival? Why is the Soul Train Awards only shown on BET, but country music has 2 or 3 different award shows on regular mainstream network TV? The Grammys & AMAs are also on network TV. How is it traditional ethnic music is labeled "world music"? All music is made in the world.

Really? American Media is not a good way to classify it at all.

How many white and black people love K-Pop? How many non-hispanic people bought Supernatural by Carlos Santana? How many black people listen to Paramore? How many black people just assume Bruno Mars is black?

Like, you can find criteria to fit any point you make.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

This is essentially the point I've been trying to make. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Problem is it's so straightforward it's boring. We all know Thriller is the biggest record of all time. Heard the story a million times.

Meanwhile, Thriller as a collection of greatest hits is exceptional, as an album it's actually pretty eclectic. But is it truly that much better than Off The Wall?

There were multiple factors at work for it's success. Paul McCartney synergy, Motown 25, the Incredible videos, and their importance, and of course MJ. Otherwise, OTW and Thriller achieved mostly the same non-grammy results in one aspect, two number 1s each, multiple top 10s and iconic hits and clips.

Meanwhile, Bad is just as good as them both, if not better in some ways, and has more Number 1s. And the best videos and tour of his career. And Dangerous truly is exceptional, for bridging a new gap in a big cultural shift, with a new format to boot. It got Quincys stamp of approval the same as the other 3 records, and it kept achieving success even with so many challengers approaching. And the music on them all remained peerless. The word is peerless. Even if you don't love every song, even if you find parts excessive, well, who else could embody the song as well, and who else really did better? It's just a lot that can be said about the lesser talked about records.

 

[zinniabooklover]

Problem is it's so straightforward it's boring. We all know Thriller is the biggest record of all time. Heard the story a million times.

Meanwhile, Thriller as a collection of greatest hits is exceptional, as an album it's actually pretty eclectic. But is it truly that much better than Off The Wall?

There were multiple factors at work for it's success. Paul McCartney synergy, Motown 25, the Incredible videos, and their importance, and of course MJ. Otherwise, OTW and Thriller achieved mostly the same non-grammy results in one aspect, two number 1s each, multiple top 10s and iconic hits and clips.

Meanwhile, Bad is just as good as them both, if not better in some ways, and has more Number 1s. And the best videos and tour of his career. And Dangerous truly is exceptional, for bridging a new gap in a big cultural shift, with a new format to boot. It got Quincys stamp of approval the same as the other 3 records, and it kept achieving success even with so many challengers approaching. And the music on them all remained peerless. The word is peerless. Even if you don't love every song, even if you find parts excessive, well, who else could embody the song as well, and who else really did better? It's just a lot that can be said about the lesser talked about records.

Well, I've pretty much lost interest in the convo, tbh, but I don't think - across two separate threads - I was just talking about Thriller. Other people might have been. I was trying to make the point that Quincy's work with Michael was just as important - IMO - as Michael's. They were two geniuses who had an alchemy that you just can't create. It just happens, like magic. But I was talking about Q's work across all three albums. I only focused on Thriller when it became a 'thing' on this thread.

I don't want Michael's work on his own music to be downplayed and for him to be dismissed as just a voice for hire. But I don't want Q dismissed either and I think that does happen quite a bit. That's how it comes across to me but, hey, other opinions are available, lol.

The other point I was trying to make was about crossover success but I can't be arsed getting back into it.

Funnily enough, I hardly ever listen to the Q albums. I mostly go for Dangerous - Invincible.

Problem is it's so straightforward it's boring.

And exhausting, lol.

 

[DuranDuran]

Segregation is a horrible word to use to describe it. Mostly connotation wise. It's simpler to say it's more diverse.

Really? American Media is not a good way to classify it at all.

How many white and black people love K-Pop? How many non-hispanic people bought Supernatural by Carlos Santana? How many black people listen to Paramore? How many black people just assume Bruno Mars is black?

Like, you can find criteria to fit any point you make.

Supernatural? The record where the most popular song had a white singer (Rob Thomas) on it. From the beginning Santana was a mixed race band, not an all Mexican one like Los Lobos. Santana is a rock band anyway, it's not like they made Tejano or merengue music. Other than Supernatural, Santana's records did not sell as much as Pink Floyd or Led Zeppelin or Def Leppard.

People in general, other than maybe hip hop fans, buy or listen to more music of their own race than another. That's one reason Elvis sold more than Little Richard & Sam Cooke. Hound Dog by Big Mama Thornton was a R&B hit, but Elvis version was the big pop hit. Hollywood made over 30 movies starring Elvis because he was marketable and made a lot of money. This is when pretty much the only mainstream Black movie star was Sidney Poitier. They surely wasn't going to make a series of Jackie Wilson movies, and Jackie was considered good looking. The Beatles had 4 movies. Go to the Top 50 biggest selling artists in history, the majority of the acts are white males and mostly rock music. Does than mean the mainstream audience doesn't like non-white or female artists or non-rock n roll as much? How many Chinese or Arab artists have had big hits in the USA? When was the last time an instrumental song became a hit? Instrumentals on the radio were fairly common in the 1960s & 1970s. If music was not segregated by race and genre, there would be no need to "crossover" & no such thing as a "Latin explosion". It would be played automatically.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Supernatural was just a smash period. And you just ignored every other point I made.

 

[Hess]

If that had happend his music would be very very different. - He would have released music before the disco-trend set in. - So OTW would be something else.

Most his musicvideos would be like She's Out of My Life and maybe Rock With You - technollogy was not for more. - Just the artist sitting and singing. In Black and white.

Not many had TV's - so his impact would be limited. Not even sure he would get out of the US. - Black artist back then had a hard time. - Even MJ had a hard time when MTV would not play his iconic and groundbreaking musicvideos. - Then imagine the world 30 years prior to that...

His concerts would not be as they were. Maybe more tapdancing, and much much smaller. No stadium concert, only theathers. - I doubt they had big-screens, so the audience would not be able to see a thing if it was a stadium concert.

No TV - no Motown 25. No world tours. - BUT - at concerts, no playback, everything would be 100 % live. No pyrotechnic, no lasers and great lightshow.

I think we should all be very happy MJ was born when he was and not earlier.