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Making of Bad (short version)

Eventidescape1

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So, here is another summary post, this time on the Bad album...

Late 1983-Mid 1984: Early versions of "Liberian Girl" and "Dirty Diana" were developed during the Victory sessions.

February 1985 (estimate): Michael starts work on the Bad album in earnest following The Jacksons' Victory tour and the We Are The World sessions...
"Another Part of Me" was cut at Westlake Studio A for the Captain EO movie... “Al Capone” (later “Smooth Criminal”) and “Dirty Diana” were also worked on during this early period.
By this point, Michael was working with engineer Matt Forger and musician/programmer John Barnes, who formed the ‘B-team’ at Hayvenhurst. Engineer/musician Bill Bottrell joined them in October 1985, becoming an integral part of the team. Likewise with Synclavier operator Chris Currell, who joined in early 1986…

Over the next year and a half, Michael continued writing and recording songs for the album. He would communicate his musical ideas, and Barnes or Bottrell would help realise them using cutting-edge tools of the day like the Synclavier and Fairlight CMI computers. There was also a great deal of experimentation with finding new sounds, something Michael continued to push for future albums.

4 August 1986: Recording officially commenced with Quincy Jones and the 'A-team’ at Westlake Studio D... Michael had already narrowed down the songs for the project from around 80 songs to 9, including “Streetwalker”.
Basically, Quincy and the ‘A-team’ were re-creating the demos from scratch with proper studio musicians, which was difficult at times due to Michael preferring the demos and felt they had more punch… Like on the demos, they worked primarily on the Synclavier with Chris Currell retained from the B-team.
Only “Another Part of Me”, however, kept the original 1985 recording made for the Captain EO film with minor updates.

At the same time, Michael continued to work with the ‘B-team’ back at Hayvenhurst - mostly Bottrell and Barnes. Attempts to bring them to Westlake not sit well with Quincy, who saw them as a threat to his role as producer… Things came to a head when Michael allegedly took the tapes for “Speed Demon” to Hayvenhurst for Bottrell to re-work behind Quincy’s back in December 1986. Inevitably, Bottrell was fired from the project the following month and the ‘B-team’ was dissolved. Currell, meanwhile, stayed as a Synclavier operator, Quincy feeling less intimidated by him.

February 1987: Halfway through recording, Quincy sought material from other songwriters for the Bad project to complement Michael’s songs… From this came “Man In The Mirror” and “Just Good Friends”.

June-July 1987: Final tense months before the Bad album was finally completed, which saw the A-team running two studios full-time at Westlake... The last few weeks saw a toss between using “Streetwalker” and “Another Part of Me” on the album, with the latter winning.
 
Eventidescape1 said:
At the same time, Michael continued to work with the ‘B-team’ back at Hayvenhurst - mostly Bottrell and Barnes. Attempts to bring them to Westlake not sit well with Quincy, who saw them as a threat to his role as producer… Things came to a head when Michael allegedly took the tapes for “Speed Demon” to Hayvenhurst for Bottrell to re-work behind Quincy’s back in December 1986. Inevitably, Bottrell was fired from the project the following month and the ‘B-team’ was dissolved. Currell, meanwhile, stayed as a Synclavier operator, Quincy feeling less intimidated by him
Click to expand...

Reading this has helped me make better sense of when QJ claimed MJ pitted people against each other. I think MJ was concerned about using all the resources available to make the best product possible, but QJ clearly interpreted it differently.
 
Michael did start working on his Thriller follow-up album in 1983 while he was working on Victory and later touring with his brothers accross the US. Basically the bulk of songs on the Bad album have been started in 1983/84.
 
Eventidescape1 said:
So, here is another summary post, this time on the Bad album...

Late 1983-Mid 1984: Early versions of "Liberian Girl" and "Dirty Diana" were developed during the Victory sessions.

February 1985 (estimate): Michael starts work on the Bad album in earnest following The Jacksons' Victory tour and the We Are The World sessions...
"Another Part of Me" was cut at Westlake Studio A for the Captain EO movie... “Al Capone” (later “Smooth Criminal”) and “Dirty Diana” were also worked on during this early period.
By this point, Michael was working with engineer Matt Forger and musician/programmer John Barnes, who formed the ‘B-team’ at Hayvenhurst. Engineer/musician Bill Bottrell joined them in October 1985, becoming an integral part of the team. Likewise with Synclavier operator Chris Currell, who joined in early 1986…

Over the next year and a half, Michael continued writing and recording songs for the album. He would communicate his musical ideas, and Barnes or Bottrell would help realise them using cutting-edge tools of the day like the Synclavier and Fairlight CMI computers. There was also a great deal of experimentation with finding new sounds, something Michael continued to push for future albums.

4 August 1986: Recording officially commenced with Quincy Jones and the 'A-team’ at Westlake Studio D... Michael had already narrowed down the songs for the project from around 80 songs to 9, including “Streetwalker”.
Basically, Quincy and the ‘A-team’ were re-creating the demos from scratch with proper studio musicians, which was difficult at times due to Michael preferring the demos and felt they had more punch… Like on the demos, they worked primarily on the Synclavier with Chris Currell retained from the B-team.
Only “Another Part of Me”, however, kept the original 1985 recording made for the Captain EO film with minor updates.

At the same time, Michael continued to work with the ‘B-team’ back at Hayvenhurst - mostly Bottrell and Barnes. Attempts to bring them to Westlake not sit well with Quincy, who saw them as a threat to his role as producer… Things came to a head when Michael allegedly took the tapes for “Speed Demon” to Hayvenhurst for Bottrell to re-work behind Quincy’s back in December 1986. Inevitably, Bottrell was fired from the project the following month and the ‘B-team’ was dissolved. Currell, meanwhile, stayed as a Synclavier operator, Quincy feeling less intimidated by him.

February 1987: Halfway through recording, Quincy sought material from other songwriters for the Bad project to complement Michael’s songs… From this came “Man In The Mirror” and “Just Good Friends”.

June-July 1987: Final tense months before the Bad album was finally completed, which saw the A-team running two studios full-time at Westlake... The last few weeks saw a toss between using “Streetwalker” and “Another Part of Me” on the album, with the latter winning.
Click to expand...
John Barnes confirmed Another Part of Me was started in January 1984 when Michael was recovering from the Pepsi accident and finished around the last leg of recording Victory.

I do wish we had those early Hayvenhurst mixes. I'd love to hear what Q changed.
 
BlackAnon said:
John Barnes confirmed Another Part of Me was started in January 1984 when Michael was recovering from the Pepsi accident and finished around the last leg of recording Victory.

I do wish we had those early Hayvenhurst mixes. I'd love to hear what Q changed.
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Ok but it’s not exactly consistent with Matt Forger’s memory of things. That he did Captain EO in early ‘85 after Victory.
It’s possible he worked on it earlier but the drum machine on that song (the Linn 9000) came out in late 1984…
 
Eventidescape1 said:
Ok but it’s not exactly consistent with Matt Forger’s memory of things. That he did Captain EO in early ‘85 after Victory.
It’s possible he worked on it earlier but the drum machine on that song (the Linn 9000) came out in late 1984…
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Liberian Girl and Another Part of Me were pre Synclavier done during the last third of Victory and way before Bad's writing and development phase. - John Barnes

No doubt production could've changed but even in late 1984, Michael probably already had the equipment before general public
 
BlackAnon said:
Liberian Girl and Another Part of Me were pre Synclavier done during the last third of Victory and way before Bad's writing and development phase. - John Barnes

No doubt production could've changed but even in late 1984, Michael probably already had the equipment before general public
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I know. They may have had ideas that dated to those sessions. But regardless, the track itself is from 1985 as Matt Forger can confirm.
 
Fuzball said:
Michael did start working on his Thriller follow-up album in 1983 while he was working on Victory and later touring with his brothers accross the US. Basically the bulk of songs on the Bad album have been started in 1983/84.
Click to expand...
Well, only two of those songs from that era made the cut. The rest were from the 85-86 period if you check Bill’s calendars.
 
Fuzball said:
Bill probably took over from previous sessions.
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Well, we only know for sure that Liberian Girl and Dirty Diana were from the Victory era. That is for certain.

APOM - well, there is conflicting info from Matt Forger and John Barnes on when that one started and timelines don’t match. Which does not help as far as I’m concerned.

The album was in pre-production for over a two-year period and Bill & Matt rotated as engineers. Anything could have been written in that time too.

Please, don’t jump straight to assumptions that most of the other tracks are from the Victory era without proper proof!

Thank you.
 
Fuzball said:
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Except that most other sources say the Victory sessions started officially in November 1983… and the Can-Am sessions were in December when Brian met Michael.

Does he specify any song titles as such?
You would need to look at the original tapes to determine what was recorded when.
 
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Fuzball said:
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Realistically, I would expect more details on what tracks he specifically remembers working on… Just saying the songs ‘became masters’ is not enough.

Given the long production period, there are bound to be songs left on the cutting room floor as Michael went along.

So I still concede that “Liberian Girl” and “Dirty Diana” are the only known songs to date back to the Victory era. And possibly APOM, though the recording is from Spring ‘85.
 
BlackAnon said:
No doubt production could've changed but even in late 1984, Michael probably already had the equipment before general public
Click to expand...
Yep, MJ's team had lots of synths (most notably the D-50) that were in fact, prototypes that would eventually be released to the general public.
 
NeoGardiV12 said:
Yep, MJ's team had lots of synths (most notably the D-50) that were in fact, prototypes that would eventually be released to the general public.
Click to expand...
Indeed.

If APOM was done during Victory, it would have had the first Linn drum machine. Like “Don’t Stand Another Chance” that John Barnes had a hand in, from 1984. Plus other Victory songs. You hear the first Linn on that.

Rather, APOM has the third Linn, the 9000. Which is not consistent with that period. So the recording at least is from 1985.
 
Eventidescape1 said:
Except that most other sources say the Victory sessions started officially in November 1983… and the Can-Am sessions were in December when Brian met Michael.

Does he specify any song titles as such?
You would need to look at the original tapes to determine what was recorded when.
Click to expand...
Victory sessions started early as March 1983 as it was originally scheduled to be released that same year
 
BlackAnon said:
I don't see why it's far fetched for APOM to have been recorded during Victory.
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Well, Matt Forger engineered the track and he said the APOM sessions were in early 1985…

Perhaps ideas of it began during Victory. But the finished recording is from ‘85 for sure. Which he made specifically for Captain EO.

Go read Making Michael & Man and the Music books. They say APOM was recorded in 1985. Both trusted sources.
 
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Fuzball said:
Is it so difficult to overdub a song on an existing multitrack-tape?
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Well, yes if you are talking about adding a drum machine to an existing track in those days. Which would be impractical.

The Linn 9000 drum machine is from months after the Victory sessions. And there’s no mention of Michael having access to that specific drum machine early on.
So I’d say post-Victory (also given Matt Forger’s recollection)
 
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Eventidescape1 said:
Well, yes if you are talking about adding a drum machine to an existing track in those days. Which would be impractical.

The Linn 9000 drum machine is from months after the Victory sessions. And there’s no mention of Michael having access to that specific drum machine early on.
So I’d say post-Victory (also given Matt Forger’s recollection)
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We can agree to disagree. John said it was done while recording Victory along with Liberian Girl. There's another song from mid 1984 that also uses the 9000......we can't say this song is from 1985


Eventidescape1 said:
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Knowing Michael, he was probably putting on for the cameras, pretending they were working on the song and playing around with the tracks
 
BlackAnon said:
We can agree to disagree. John said it was done while recording Victory along with Liberian Girl. There's another song from mid 1984 that also uses the 9000......we can't say this song is from 1985




Knowing Michael, he was probably putting on for the cameras, pretending they were working on the song and playing around with the tracks
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Ok. But I still don’t see where you are coming from with that, given my observations. John Barnes says one thing, Matt Forger says another…

Fact is: the Linn 9000 did not come out until late 1984. It took ages to develop. I’ve seen many adverts and the earliest I could find was in November 1984.

The Linn 9000 has mostly the same sounds as its predecessor the Linndrum, which features on that track you linked.

The clap sounds are different, though, which sound more like a whiplash. You hear that on “Cheater” as well and the Captain EO mix of APOM. I don’t hear it on the track you linked.

I’m not saying APOM wasn’t done for Victory. But evidence suggests to me that the album recording was made after Victory, NOT during.
 
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Thing is, I haven’t found anything about Michael owning the Linn 9000 before it’s release.

I wouldn’t rule it out that he did have one pre-release. But without any evidence you wouldn’t know for sure.

Which means the earliest he most LIKELY did it was early ‘85.
 
Eventidescape1 said:
Thing is, I haven’t found anything about Michael owning the Linn 9000 before it’s release.
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It could have been recorded anywhere. Studio guys around MJ were able got get anything - even custom produced parts for their synthesizer.
 
Fuzball said:
It could have been recorded anywhere. Studio guys around MJ were able got get anything - even custom produced parts for their synthesizer.
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Yes. Only APOM was done at Westlake Studio A though.

But you are making this more complicated though possibilities-wise.

Evidence-wise, the linn 9000 was released in Late 1984 and there’s no mention of Michael using it before that date. That’s all I have.

So more likely early 1985.
 
Eventidescape1 said:
Ok. But I still don’t see where you are coming from with that, given my observations. John Barnes says one thing, Matt Forger says another…

Fact is: the Linn 9000 did not come out until late 1984. It took ages to develop. I’ve seen many adverts and the earliest I could find was in November 1984.

The Linn 9000 has mostly the same sounds as its predecessor the Linndrum, which features on that track you linked.

The clap sounds are different, though, which sound more like a whiplash. You hear that on “Cheater” as well and the Captain EO mix of APOM. I don’t hear it on the track you linked.

I’m not saying APOM wasn’t done for Victory. But evidence suggests to me that the album recording was made after Victory, NOT during.
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The song I posted was released July 1984 and uses the Linn 9000 and was likely recorded months prior which doesn't rule out the equipment being accessible to artists in early 1984.

But I get what you're saying.
 
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