Michael's true involvement in his music?

[Richard76]

Does anybody know any reliable source, where Michael's credits is written fully right? (without mistakes) Recently, I tried to make a list of Michael's songs, that he wrote all alone. And I discovered, there are a lot of misunderstandings and mistakes.... As far as I understand, Michael's songs can be splitted in 4 groups: 1st one - tracks that were fully written and produced by Michael (Speechlees, Dangerous, ....), 2d - tracks that was written by Michael and produced with other musicians (Billie Jean, Stranger In Moscow, ....), 3d - songs that was written and produced by Michael and other musicians (Unbreakable, Invincible and so on), 4th - tracks that was written by other musicians and "presented" to Michael and produced by him and other musicians (You Are Not Alone, Heaven Can Wait, Break Of Dawn, Butterflies, ....) But, for example, on Wiki or Genius stated, that Dangerous song was written with other musician (which apparently is not true, because Michael stated during court process, that he wrote this song all alone...). Also Genius says that Michael wrote all songs from Bad album alone... Which is also not true....

 

[Piek]

Writing credits are business. They don't always represent the actual writing history of the song (unfortunately).

 

[Agonum]

It can be difficult to find a reliable source. The copyright office should be your best bet.

We had an interesting discussion on this topic in another thread a while back, regarding On the Line.

 

[dethorro]

First of all, Dangerous was not fully written by Michael, nor was it fully produced by him. What he said in the Deposition was that he wrote the vocal melody and the lyrics of the song, on the instrumental created by Bill Bottrell, which used the Streetwalker Bassline as a foundation. So, the demo is clearly a collaboration between Michael and Bottrell.

Then came Teddy Riley in the picture, who updated the production, thus composing little things here and there.

Secondly, we now know that Stranger In Moscow was co-written with Brad Buxer. On that one, however, I’m pretty sure he is the sole producer.

 

[Richard76]

First of all, Dangerous was not fully written by Michael, nor was it fully produced by him. What he said in the Deposition was that he wrote the vocal melody and the lyrics of the song, on the instrumental created by Bill Bottrell, which used the Streetwalker Bassline as a foundation. So, the demo is clearly a collaboration between Michael and Bottrell.

Then came Teddy Riley in the picture, who updated the production, thus composing little things here and there.

Secondly, we now know that Stranger In Moscow was co-written with Brad Buxer. On that one, however, I’m pretty sure he is the sole producer.

okay. and what about bad album songs? He obviously didn't write them all alone...

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Secondly, we now know that Stranger In Moscow was co-written with Brad Buxer.

What did Brad contribute, lyrically?

 

[dethorro]

What did Brad contribute, lyrically?

Nothing, he came up with the chord progression.

 

[dethorro]

okay. and what about bad album songs? He obviously didn't write them all alone...

It appears he did, in fact. John Barnes and Bill Bottrell had a strong influence on these tracks, though. But what they did doesn’t contribute to the “writing” or “composing” of the song. It’s more production or arrangement.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Nothing, he came up with the chord progression.

That's more of a co-compositon then isn't it?

 

[Lacra]

Bruce Swedien seemed to be disappointed not getting co-writing credits for Heal The World. So it's probably the whole Stranger in Moscow thing again.

 

[Richard76]

Bruce Swedien seemed to be disappointed not getting co-writing credits for Heal The World. So it's probably the whole Stranger in Moscow thing again.

but Micheal wrote this song all alone... on the tree... on his Neverland rancho... He confirmed it in documentary

 

[Rockin R]

but Micheal wrote this song all alone... on the tree... on his Neverland rancho... He confirmed it in documentary

Yeah, and he said he only had 2 plastic surgeries and that he had a relationship with his third son's mother and then took it back.

Sometimes he embelished things, sometimes he lied, sometimes he ''forgets''.

 

[dethorro]

That's more of a co-compositon then isn't it?

I guess. The whole “writing” term is used more generally in the “less serious” music styles such as pop or rock. “Writing” covers the composing of the music and the writing of the lyrics. But yes, in this case it is a case of co-composition with Michael writing the lyrics fully by himself.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Yeah, and he said he only had 2 plastic surgeries and that he had a relationship with his third son's mother and then took it back.

Sometimes he embelished things, sometimes he lied, sometimes he ''forgets''.

This is about the music, not tabloid fodder.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

I guess. The whole “writing” term is used more generally in the “less serious” music styles such as pop or rock. “Writing” covers the composing of the music and the writing of the lyrics. But yes, in this case it is a case of co-composition with Michael writing the lyrics fully by himself.

They don't ever quibble about stuff like this with Bob Dylan, do they? But he seems to do all of it by himself, also, doesn't he?

MJ always wrote the words and that mattered go me. Composing, he did less so, never before the 70s and not a ton after the 90s either. But for the 80s, his biggest hits, and just about everything on Bad, he was directly in charge of creating those sounds. Co producing was all he ever did though.

 

[analogue]

Nothing, he came up with the chord progression.

Chord progressions don't count as songwriting and it can't be copyrighted. If it could be then everyone would be suing everyone else for using the same chord progressions in different songs. And there'd be hardly any songs made.

 

[dethorro]

Chord progressions don't count as songwriting and it can't be copyrighted. If it could be then everyone would be suing everyone else for using the same chord progressions in different songs. And there'd be hardly any songs made.

Indeed, however, there is at least one chord in that progression which Michael most likely wouldn’t have composed himself, because you need to know advanced music theory and be very knowledgeable about music structure.

The chord A 6/9 (“when you’re alone and you’re cold inside”) is not necessarily the most logical, usual thing someone would do in that context, if they are not an expert in music theory. Michael obviously had the biggest hand in that song, no doubt, but I don’t think one can write off Buxer’s involvement.

 

[Agonum]

Chord progressions don't count as songwriting and it can't be copyrighted. If it could be then everyone would be suing everyone else for using the same chord progressions in different songs. And there'd be hardly any songs made.

Depends on the complexity.

 

[Annita]

Buxers story are changing. It seems his contributions are more and more with the years Michael is dead. It´s a simple thing to do so.

 

[DuranDuran]

The copyright office should be your best bet.

Anybody can be registered at the copyright office (in the USA). A person does not necessarily have to have contributed anything to a song. There was a doo wop group named The Cadillacs in which some of the members would write some of their songs. But their manager Esther Navarro would register their songs under her name and not the actual writers. So she got the royalties and the group got nothing. She had nothing to do with songwriting, but she made the money. They couldn't do anything about Esther ripping them off.

It was common for record label heads, managers, and even members of the mafia to put their names on songs without the knowledge of the actual songwriters or by threats in the case of the mob. Some bands give credits to all members, whether a particular member wrote or not. They did this to split the royalties evenly and could all make money. Some songwriters give credits to their family members or friends to help them out financially. A lot of Lennon/McCartney songs were written separately. In some cases a writer might decline credit for various reasons. In old jazz, usually it was the band leader who took sole credit, even if a sideman helped. There's also ghostwriters, who don't get a writing credit, but get paid a flat fee. That's considered "work for hire".

 

[Richard76]

Anybody can be registered at the copyright office (in the USA). A person does not necessarily have to have contributed anything to a song. There was a doo wop group named The Cadillacs in which some of the members would write some of their songs. But their manager Esther Navarro would register their songs under her name and not the actual writers. So she got the royalties and the group got nothing. She had nothing to do with songwriting, but she made the money. They couldn't do anything about Esther ripping them off.

It was common for record label heads, managers, and even members of the mafia to put their names on songs without the knowledge of the actual songwriters or by threats in the case of the mob. Some bands give credits to all members, whether a particular member wrote or not. They did this to split the royalties evenly and could all make money. Some songwriters give credits to their family members or friends to help them out financially. A lot of Lennon/McCartney songs were written separately. In some cases a writer might decline credit for various reasons. In old jazz, usually it was the band leader who took sole credit, even if a sideman helped. There's also ghostwriters, who don't get a writing credit, but get paid a flat fee. That's considered "work for hire".

Cascio tracks is best example for that. MJ didn't write these songs. But got credited)

 

[Agonum]

Anybody can be registered at the copyright office (in the USA). A person does not necessarily have to have contributed anything to a song. There was a doo wop group named The Cadillacs in which some of the members would write some of their songs. But their manager Esther Navarro would register their songs under her name and not the actual writers. So she got the royalties and the group got nothing. She had nothing to do with songwriting, but she made the money. They couldn't do anything about Esther ripping them off.

It was common for record label heads, managers, and even members of the mafia to put their names on songs without the knowledge of the actual songwriters or by threats in the case of the mob. Some bands give credits to all members, whether a particular member wrote or not. They did this to split the royalties evenly and could all make money. Some songwriters give credits to their family members or friends to help them out financially. A lot of Lennon/McCartney songs were written separately. In some cases a writer might decline credit for various reasons. In old jazz, usually it was the band leader who took sole credit, even if a sideman helped. There's also ghostwriters, who don't get a writing credit, but get paid a flat fee. That's considered "work for hire".

You’re absolutely right. Didn’t really think about all of that, but it’s true.

Cross the copyright office out.