MJ Estate Third Accounting - Document & Summary & Discussion

[Soundmind]

You gotta admire Katherine's determination to get $$$$ at any cost, you know taking care of kids and getting paid handsomely for that , serving as a consultant to a business empire , engaging in business ventures with porn producers....etc all that at the age of 85 and still crying over "need"

 

[Mneme]

Katherine and Joe applied for bankruptcy instead. Slightly off topic but I'm interested how bankruptcy works, if the Koreans could still apply for the payment couldn't all the other people Joe and Katherine owed money to at the time of the bankruptcy also seek settlement?

/Last Tear:
Maybe it is not important for your train of thought about her bankruptcy... But her bankruptcy was in relation with the Vaccaro case on March 01, 1999. See here:

January 19, 1999 Federal marshals seized the possession of the storage unit

February 8, 1999 Jermaine filed bankruptcy

February 26, 1999 Tito filed bankruptcy

March 1, 1999 Katherine & Joe filed bankruptcy
source: http://muzikfactorytwo.blogspot.de/2011/03/katherine-jackson-howard-mann-whole.html

But the Segye Times (Moonies) case has been going on since 1990.
one of several sources: http://www.showbiz411.com/2010/06/28/michael-jackson-moonies-want-millions-from-his-parents

Yes, it is true: The smart business woman Katherine J. was holding brave both ears closed twenty years long always in hope that Michael will pay for her. But he doesn't want it. He will have his reasons for his refusal.

 

[passy001]

Passy please don't come at me like that. Im not trying to dictate anything or say how you or anyone should express their views. Im sorry if i made you feel that way. I don't see that anywhere in what you are replying to here. I was just responding to your post saying that I was speculation and cant prove what I was saying. To that I responded with - yes I was speculating and I try to make that evident in my posts. I didn't state you or any had to do that as well. You can certainly express yourself any way you want to within the rules of the board. Please post however you wish. Just don't attack or come at me like that for something I didn't say. Maybe I wasn't clear and cause you to misread my words or intentions.

I actually thought you held the opinion that it was wrong of members to post opinions as fact without stating or making it clear it was an opinion or speculation.etc. but It must have been someone else in the Trial and Tribulations threads backing Ivy on that issue. Some people feel it is important, some don't.. It's not a rule or dictated that anyone must do that . but I guess it can cause members to be challenged sometimes in a discussion if they don't make it clear.

The problem is your previous response was rather patronizing.

I can say for instance: "The sky is blue" or "I think the sky is blue". it does not matter really. either way is clearly an expression of a thought. The onus is on you however to challenge it if you disagree.

 

[passy001]

You gotta admire Katherine's determination to get $$$$ at any cost, you know taking care of kids and getting paid handsomely for that , serving as a consultant to a business empire , engaging in business ventures with porn producers....etc all that at the age of 85 and still crying over "need"

KJ got nearly $6.7m in 2013 from the estate, including the kids allowance and her "consultation" fee. yet she has the nerves to ask fans for donations.

 

[jamba]

After reading KJ's testimony in the AEG civil suit, I got the impression that she is unaware of financial realities, such that she could claim MJ was never broke, etc, even tho' he was close to bankruptcy. I think, and this is speculation, that as someone who has not had a job for decades that she is accustomed to having the bills/expenses paid and doesn't really think about what is involved in earning/generating the income in the first place. So it is probably not easy for the Estate or anyone else to penetrate that mindset.

 

[passy001]

After reading KJ's testimony in the AEG civil suit, I got the impression that she is unaware of financial realities, such that she could claim MJ was never broke, etc, even tho' he was close to bankruptcy. I think, and this is speculation, that as someone who has not had a job for decades that she is accustomed to having the bills/expenses paid and doesn't really think about what is involved in earning/generating the income in the first place. So it is probably not easy for the Estate or anyone else to penetrate that mindset.

All the jacksons have the same mindset. none of them wants to work. nor do they have the work ethics required to be successful. yet they claim MJ success was just luck. go figure.

That mindset will only break when Joe and KJ pass away. until then it's business as usual.

 

[Tygger]

Btw, that consulting is more than executors got paid the whole year and at least we can see the results of their work!

Where are the numbers for this in the accounting document? Does this include the percentage of monies generated from deals created and/or lawyer fees?

 

[Tammy86]

It seems that the Estate is doing well. Is someone living in the Lindley apartment? Is that why the Estate is still paying for the utility bills?

 

[ivy]

Btw, that consulting is more than executors got paid the whole year and at least we can see the results of their work!

Where are the numbers for this in the accounting document? Does this include the percentage of monies generated from deals created and/or lawyer fees?

Executor fees are shown in the accounting which was $4,454,011

If you divide it by two it would mean $2,272,505 per executor which is less than the $2.3 Million net or $2.5 Million gross consulting amounts.

Lawyer fees are irrelevant to executor compensation. Those are being paid for legal issues, legal staff salaries etc and doesn't go to the Executors.

 

[Tygger]

Ivy, in the past lawyer fees were not irrelevant to the executors as per this article from McCartney.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/19/michael-jackson-estate-executors_n_1158569.html

From your post, the executors receive more than the three minor beneficiaries individually and is only about $230K short of the fourth. Does that number include monies generated from deals the executors create?

 

[ivy]

^^

Lawyer fees - assuming we are talking what is paid to Branca's law firm- is irrelevant IMO. Why? Because there are multiple people - lawyers, paralegals, assistants etc in Branca's office that work on MJ related stuff and those monies are used to pay their salaries and the expenses etc. I don't see that as a money that goes into Branca's own pocket. And actually AP also mentions this by "The men had been paying fees for entertainment legal counsel provided by members of Branca's firm". So that legal fees goes to other people, not Branca or McClain


Anyway the discussion (what bubs posted and what you asked) was about KJ's consultant fees versus what Executors were paid, period. Her consultant fee is more than what individual executors got this year. I calculated that for you.

if you want to do other calculations go ahead. Did they get more than the kids? perhaps they did or not. I don't know if you just considered that allowance or included the other expenses or not. The previous posts wasn't about that and I did not write or do any calculations about that either. But we (or at least I) got you aren't happy that Buds has stated KJ got paid more money than Executors so now you are trying to change that to state but they got more than the kids. and you might be correct.

From your post, the executors is only about $230K short of the fourth.

and this statement is mathematically wrong. Katherine got $2.3 Million net for consulting plus 1,386,548 in allowance plus there were other expenses (such as security, housing, housing staff, health insurance etc) that would be at least 1/4th spent for her benefit. Anyway expenses aside (simply bc I won't bother to divide that among beneficiaries) KJ got $3,386,548 in consultant fee + allowance where as Executors individually got 2,272,505 that's a difference of $1,414,043

Does that number include monies generated from deals the executors create?

That's the any and all monies Executors get personally for 2012. I don't think I can get any more clearer than that. And the document is posted, if you don't believe me check for "co-executive" fees, everything is there. And if I missed anything, feel free to point that out.

 

[DC10]

I don't think anyone here meant that executors are afraid of Jackson's, more like they bending over backwards to keep KJ quiet. Certainly you haven't forgotten that when the estate was going to sell Havenhurst, KJ went to tabloids crying how unfair they are and she didn't want to sell it, despite she doesn't want to live there. So to avoid more crying in tabloids, the estate withdrew the sale of Havenhurst. There have been many occasions when KJ gives an interview to tabloids and accuses executors from this and that, and to be honest, an old woman crying on tabloids or telly makes executors look rather cold hearted, so they accommodate a lot from her.
She knows how to play this game.

Its as clear as day the estate are pandering to kj and giving her money to pay for the rest of the family by inventing consulting roles and the ridiculous amounts they are paying her.branca should grow some balls hes been taken for a mug and it makes me sick how the family are getting mjs money regardless of his wishes.

And now that they lost the AEG money, expect to see even bigger 'consulting fees' in the next accounting.

You gotta admire Katherine's determination to get $$$$ at any cost, you know taking care of kids and getting paid handsomely for that , serving as a consultant to a business empire , engaging in business ventures with porn producers....etc all that at the age of 85 and still crying over "need"

KJ got nearly $6.7m in 2013 from the estate, including the kids allowance and her "consultation" fee. yet she has the nerves to ask fans for donations.

As truly ANNOYING as all this is, the Estate executors probably figured out that creating these b.s. paying "jobs" for Katherine and the cubs to do virtually nothing is CHEAPER for the Estate in the long run than the costs of the Jacksons' very public single-minded actions to get money that intentionally or unintentionally end up damaging MJ's image/his Estate's products/projects and harming MJ's kids in financial and other ways (resentment/inattention to their needs). The Estate has little ability to defend itself publicly against the very effective manipulation/extortion of having MJ's frequently tearful mother and other recognizable family members get on TV to lie and make people think the Estate is leaving her and MJ's kids destitute and struggling.

How much of MJ's money has been wasted in legal fights against all the con men, nut jobs, hustlers, and shady lawyers that the family has brought in for schemes to help them get money for themselves off of MJ's back? (I include Tohme in that, as I suspect the extent of his dealings with the family have not been fully disclosed given how joined at the hip he was with Jermaine the day MJ died). In the years since MJ's death, it's hard to name much the family has done to help MJ's image & legacy - just the opposite. Despite their amateurish products/productions, being related to MJ gives them high profile interviews where they have done everything from portraying MJ as a pathetic drug addict (as emphasized in their high profile lawsuit), who also supposedly was addicted to plastic surgery (even degrading his looks with the "nose like a toothpick" comment) to demeaning him as a parent by often giving the impression that the kids somehow were better off with the Jacksons than with their devoted and attentive father. Like the Estate seems to be doing, MJ may have been giving them money for all those years primarily to keep them and their shenanigans out of his hair and out of the media.

 

[Tygger]

Lawyer fees - assuming we are talking what is paid to Branca's law firm- is irrelevant IMO. Why? Because there are multiple people - lawyers, paralegals, assistants etc in Branca's office that work on MJ related stuff and those monies are used to pay their salaries and the expenses etc. I don't see that as a money that goes into Branca's own pocket. And actually AP also mentions this by "The men had been paying fees for entertainment legal counsel provided by members of Branca's firm". So that legal fees goes to other people, not Branca or McClain

I believe you understand how a partner of a law firm is enriched by monies their law firm receives for services rendered.

Anyway the discussion (what bubs posted and what you asked) was about KJ's consultant fees versus what Executors were paid, period. Her consultant fee is more than what individual executors got this year. I calculated that for you.

It is appreciated. Others may not agree however, I believe a beneficiary should receive more than an executor and if the consulting fee allows Katherine’s intake to be more than the executors’ intake by about $230K, then so be it. It could be the executors have the same belief. My calculation was based on your post as I said in my response to you. In your second response you have an increased number that includes expenses for Katherine which is grand. Those expenses do not go into "her pocket" as you say; however, I have no issue with it. The executors intake should not be on par with a beneficiary intake from my view.

That's the any and all monies Executors get personally for 2012. I don't think I can get any more clearer than that. And the document is posted, if you don't believe me check for "co-executive" fees. And if I missed anything, feel free to point that out.

I appreciate the clarification.

 

[ivy]

In your second response you have an increased number to include expenses for Katherine which is grand. Those expenses do not go into "her pocket" as you say; however, I have no issue with it.

actually I mentioned the expenses spent for her benefit but I did not include that number.Expenses significance is that those are the stuff that she doesn't have to pay which means that they don't cut into her allowance/consulting fees.

I only mentioned the allowance which is given to her and she can spend that anyway she wants so that $1,386,548 allowance actually goes to her. so once again KJ got $3,386,548 in consultant fee + allowance where as Executors individually got 2,272,505.

I'm also pretty sure I mentioned Branca's pocket and not Katherine's or "her pocket" as you claim.

I believe a beneficiary should receive more than an executor

A beneficiary would receive more than an executor but only after the Estate is out of probate. Remember probate is about paying debt. That should be the focus right now IMO.

 

[Tygger]

Ivy, I know your number did not include expenses. I should have clarified my response more but no matter. I simply repeated your phrase about monies being in “someone’s pocket.” Before you respond, yes, I know you did not use the term someone. It is not a phrase I normally use and I am learning phrases and words by some posters here that I normally do not use; like “receipts.” I believe I used it correctly here regardless.

So you have repeated the calculation so I will repeat my belief: I believe the beneficiary should have a higher intake than the executor(s) when approaching and at solvency. Depending on how you look at it, it is happening. You are using the view of the individual intake of the executors. If you look at the total executors' intake, the estate pays more to the executors than Katherine alone.

This estate is more solvent now and if anyone should have a higher intake, it should be a beneficiary in my view. In the past it was most likely not the case as the estate was more debt-ridden.

 

[ivy]

when approaching and at solvency

you really think this is the case?

Documents refer to $400 - 500 Million in debt. They talked about restructuring the loans and saving money, the loan payments are around $70 Million. So my best guess would be probably half of the debts are paid and half is still there. There's also the issue of IRS & Estate tax which could be anything from a few millions to $700 Million. Plus multiple million dollar lawsuits are ongoing. Perhaps it's just me but I don't think Estate is anywhere near solvency.

 

[serendipity]

Beneficiaries should be getting whatever MJ decided, period. Minor kids sure don't need to be getting millions and MJ smartly made sure of that. And his mother's allowence is more than enough for her comfortable living, which is what MJ wanted for her. No made-up consulting fees that are going to other people he did not want to support.

 

[qbee]

We don't know what the consultation fees are for or that it isnt legit.. Could be information for various cases or projects etc just as well. We Also don't know what she is spending her money on either. Guessing and speculating makes for a interesting discussion though.

 

[Tygger]

Ivy, you are free to choose how you want to see it.

Either the estate is in a better condition after the third accounting than it was in 2009 which means it is approaching solvency or it is not.

Either the executors are doing the best they can to eliminate debt resulting in a solvent estate or not.

Take your pick and please do not let my choice of words influence your choice.

 

[ivy]

Ivy, you are free to choose how you want to see it.

Either the estate is in a better condition after the third accounting than it was in 2009 which means it is approaching solvency or it is not.

Either the executors are doing the best they can to eliminate debt resulting in a solvent estate or not.

Take your pick and please do not let my choice of words influence your choice.

to me these are two different things.

Are they in a better condition than they are when compared to 2009? Absolutely.
Are they solvent or close to solvency? No

For example if we agree /assume that the debts were $400 Million and half is paid and/or negotiated and/or reduced through refinancing (ignoring lawsuits and possible tax bill), I would agree that as being in a whole a lot better condition and doing their best but I wouldn't see that as being solvent.

Solvency is when current assets exceeds liabilities. Current assets are assets that are cash or can be converted into cash quickly. Estate has $19 Million in cash. I don't think they have any other assets that they consider selling. So I don't see that as being close to solvency.

 

[Tygger]

Ivy, no worries; I understand if I state it is approaching solvency the expected response would be the opposite stance. It is perception. I see the glass half full.

I said the estate was approaching solvency and I will maintain that. I never said the rate at which it was approaching. I want the best for Michael's legacy, estate and the estate's beneficiaries and I hope to see the day it is solvent.

 

[Bubs]

It seems that the Estate is doing well. Is someone living in the Lindley apartment? Is that why the Estate is still paying for the utility bills?

Because Jermaine and Randy doesn't pay child support to Alejandra, and to get rid of her, the estate allows her to live in Michael apartment for free.

I was wondering that consulting fee. It is just too bizarre amount of money to pay KJ for consulting!
Could it be that it is for Saunders for consulting KJ in the estate matters etc? I didn't see any amount of money allocated to Ribeira or Saunders in this accounting, whereas 2nd accounting KJ took a loan from the estate to pay her own lawyers, so have they cooked up some sort of roundabout how KJ can avoid paying her lawyers and at the end the estate is paying for it?

I have to fix my own post. There is attorney fees to Ribeira lawfirm (KJ's attorney for guardianship issues) for $102,587.77 for 6 months in 2012, so the 2.5 million is for Perry Saunders. Hopefully in next accounting there is no "consulting fees" to Panish and Co.
-------------------------------------

and this statement is mathematically wrong. Katherine got $2.3 Million net for consulting plus 1,386,548 in allowance plus there were other expenses (such as security, housing, housing staff, health insurance etc) that would be at least 1/4th spent for her benefit. Anyway expenses aside (simply bc I won't bother to divide that among beneficiaries) KJ got $3,386,548 in consultant fee + allowance where as Executors individually got 2,272,505 that's a difference of $1,414,043

I would add children's allowance to KJ's pot. If you remember after granny-napping episode when KJ lost guardian-ship, Randy went on all sort of tabloids and media telling that TJ shouldn't have gone to court seeking guardianship. He got worried about who is going to get control of kids allowance.
Randy has no say about kids allowance, but why he attacked on TJ anyway, unless KJ gives money from kids allowance to family members.
Also Perry Saunders gave a statement to media "Katherine would remain in control of the children's family allowance." Why it was so important who is in control of kids allowance unless somebody is dipping their hands on kids allowance.

Beneficiaries should be getting whatever MJ decided, period. Minor kids sure don't need to be getting millions and MJ smartly made sure of that. And his mother's allowence is more than enough for her comfortable living, which is what MJ wanted for her. No made-up consulting fees that are going to other people he did not want to support.

and when Michael was alive he just didn't throw millions on KJ's way. When he went on tour, he left million to his accountant with instructions not to give it to her at once, because he knew she would share it with people he didn't want to support.

 

[Bubs]

We don't know what the consultation fees are for or that it isnt legit.. Could be information for various cases or projects etc just as well. We Also don't know what she is spending her money on either. Guessing and speculating makes for a interesting discussion though.

No, we don't know where she is spending her allowance, but I think it is quite natural conclusion that her money goes to support her cubs and Joe. She doesn't go on holidays (unless she is granny-napped), wears always same clothes, she doesn't swim in diamonds, no hairdressing costs, all household bills paid by estate, so were could over 80 years old woman spend a millions? I don't know, but I can guess


To be fair, news section there is a thread with 132 pages of guessing and speculation.
What difference does it make if we speculate here or on thread upcoming project?
If we only talk about what we know sure for 100%, it would be very quiet threads.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

As truly ANNOYING as all this is, the Estate executors probably figured out that creating these b.s. paying "jobs" for Katherine and the cubs to do virtually nothing is CHEAPER for the Estate in the long run than the costs of the Jacksons' very public single-minded actions to get money that intentionally or unintentionally end up damaging MJ's image/his Estate's products/projects and harming MJ's kids in financial and other ways (resentment/inattention to their needs). The Estate has little ability to defend itself publicly against the very effective manipulation/extortion of having MJ's frequently tearful mother and other recognizable family members get on TV to lie and make people think the Estate is leaving her and MJ's kids destitute and struggling

________________________

I got what you are saying but thats basicalky blackmail and its working. The estate loans kj money and gives her a consulting role where the estate pay her and then take the money back for the loan. ie its costing kj nothing! Not to mention what mother expects to be paid for such a role in the first place? Yes mj liked sweet potatoe pie that will be 100 bucks please! Do the excutors ever sit down and look at the figures or is it because they are all way to rich that they have lost their moral compass interms of the amounts of money ppl need to live off. Tj jackie alexandria katherine all getting paid plus all kjs wages going to the rest of the family. I find it hard supporting estate projects until kj is gone and the gravy train stops

 

[Mneme]

It seems that the Estate is doing well. Is someone living in the Lindley apartment? Is that why the Estate is still paying for the utility bills?

If I may write this here(?): Isn't it that condo who Alejandra (the ex-woman from Randy and Jermaine) is staying?
By the way I have not read about any receipt for a rent in the estate accounting. It seems that A. is staying there without paying a rent.


Hayvenhurst.

- Improvements to Hayvenhurst include: entertainment room renovations, wall repair, pipe leak repair, theater renderings, reupholster theater seats, projection booth, and snack bar for lobby.

Media stories about MJ Estate Third Accounting

The family has been living in a $26,000 rental house in Calabasas, while the Hayvenhurst house continues to be renovated.

The monthly electric bill for the Calabasas mansion is $2,500 and the cost for living (including utilities) in the rental for in 2012 was $418,013.69.

Renovations for the Encino mansion were $154,323.53 in 2012, including a $12,000 home theater renovation project, $3,225 studio repair and pond keeper services for $814.43.

Even though no one was living at the house in 2012, utilities including phone, gas, and electricity totaled $35,842.05. Storage and moving fees for 2012 added up to a whopping $806,872.52.
http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2014/02/michael-jackson-money-estate-worth-million-katherine/[
/QUOTE]

Does anybody know what will be in the future with this house?
From what I know nobody is staying there. The house was full renovated and an un-inhabited house even with a snack bar in the lobbis is not well for its substance. (for example: Surely all water pipes were changed an now I read about a pipe leak repair)


edit: Sorry, Bubs, I haven't seen that you alredy answered tammy's question....

 

[Bubs]

^^^ KJ doesn't want to sell Havenhurst because she wants to keep it for family gatherings, but it is eating lot of money considering no one lives there. Maybe the estate puts is on market if the lawsuit against IRS doesn't go according to plan and IRS wins the case. There is more than 4 millions tied in that house and KJ wants to keep it for family weddings (which are paid from MJ's money), but I think she knows who lives there and using it as base while visiting in LA (Joe and Majestic). Maybe she is trying to get the house on her name so after her passing, she can leave it to cubs?

Maybe they stocked snack bar for Kenya (dog MJ gave to kids)lives there

 

[Hess]

J3 will be billionaires if this continues!!

And soon the new album comes - that will make a lot of money too!

 

[Bonnie Blue]

Are they solvent or close to solvency? No

Solvency is when current assets exceeds liabilities.

Are you suggesting mj's estate is insolvent?? Solvency is when current assets exceeds CURRENT liabilities. Hardly any company or individual could pay off all their debts in one go with their current assets. The estate seems to be pretty comfortably set up to pay off all the interst on their debts and able to pay down substantial capital debt, so to me that's being a solvent and healthy business. Even mj in 09 was still just about hanging on to being solvent.

 

[ivy]

Solvency is when current assets exceeds CURRENT liabilities.

is that the case though? What is the current liabilities? Do you know the amount? Cash seems to be around $19 Million. and if we are being technical solvency is when the current assets are double the current liabilities.

Hardly any company or individual could pay off all their debts in one go with their current assets.

and no one said that

The estate seems to be pretty comfortably set up to pay off all the interst on their debts and able to pay down substantial capital debt, so to me that's being a solvent and healthy business.

and to me that's being on the way of being solvent. However let's not forget the tax bill as well as other lawsuits. Also this isn't necessarily just about solvency. Probate law requires them to pay debts first, not give money to the beneficiaries. Regardless of if we classify them as solvent or not, their focus should be paying the debts first and not a logic of "beneficiaries should get more than executors".

Even mj in 09 was still just about hanging on to being solvent.

really? neverland was to be foreclosed and saved by Colony Capital. Hayvenhurst was in foreclosure. Sony/atv debt was to mature in 2010. Do you consider that being solvent?

Anyway I'm not gonna continue with this discussion but I guess I have a quite different definition of being solvent. And my mere point is that during probate the rules is to pay debts first and later give money to the beneficiaries. There's no law that says "if you feel solvent give money to beneficiaries".

 

[Bubs]

Good link for explaining solvent-insolvent estate:
http://wills.about.com/od/howtoavoidprobate/a/deceaseddebts.htm