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MJ Short films not shot in 16:9 or 2.39:1 or 2.40:1 on film negative.

MJ_Moonwalk

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I recently watched Paramount + 40th Thriller documentary and was wondering why Thriller, Beat It and Billie Jean was all shot in aspect ratio 4:3. I know this was the aspect ratio for television at the time. But these short films, especially Thriller had a massive budget and was filmed using a cinema film camera. Films at that time, ones shown in cinema were filmed in aspect ratio 2.40:1,

Could it be that the original negative is in 2.40:1 format? This was converted to 4:3 for TV. If this is the case for these short films, if we went back to the original negative we can quite easily get our current format 16:9. Or even keep it as 2.40:1, just have black bars at the top and bottom for 4K output. Remember film negative is higher in resolution than 4K near 6K.
 
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Nothing on film was/is filmed in 4:3. It's possible it was edited that way, but the original negative would be widescreen.
If the original intention was to keep 4:3 in mind then the cast/crew might not have cared what was out of the frame.
Stuff like camera equipment or crew members might be on the sides that are cropped out. Meaning if it wasn't cropped this way, you'd see a bunch of stuff that shouldn't be there.
The fact they uploaded a 4K version of Thriller makes me think a widescreen version isn't possible.
Or the only finished prints that exist are all 4:3.
If anyone has a 16x9 version it'd be the director.
For a 16x9 restoration to happen, they'd likely have to rescan all of the original footage and re-edit the entire video from scratch.
Some of this can be done with automation software. For instances Shout Factory did this for the entire remaster of the Pee Wee's Playhouse house.
Another company did something similar with the entire series of X-Files.
The finished video is used as a template and the software looks for the exact same clips from the source files.
Then it edits it all together.
I presume such a thing can't be super expensive because Paul Rubens himself paid for the restoration of Pee Wee.
The problem at this point is the estate owns all of this and in 2023 they wouldn't really financially benefit from such a project.
It would almost have to be a 4K music video collection or something....
Would that really sell? Probably not....
Another issue is special effects. Most CGI/green screen effects in the 80-90's were all created in SD. For shows like X-Files it had to all be re-created and looked pretty terrible. I can think several of his videos that would be impossible to recreate.
 
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pinballmaster said:
Nothing on film was/is filmed in 4:3. It's possible it was edited that way, but the original negative would be widescreen.
If the original intention was to keep 4:3 in mind then the cast/crew might not have cared what was out of the frame.
Stuff like camera equipment or crew members might be on the sides that are cropped out. Meaning if it wasn't cropped this way, you'd see a bunch of stuff that shouldn't be there.
The fact they uploaded a 4K version of Thriller makes me think a widescreen version isn't possible.
Or the only finished prints that exist are all 4:3.
If anyone has a 16x9 version it'd be the director.
For a 16x9 restoration to happen, they'd likely have to rescan all of the original footage and re-edit the entire video from scratch.
Some of this can be done with automation software. For instances Shout Factory did this for the entire remaster of the Pee Wee's Playhouse house.
Another company did something similar with the entire series of X-Files.
The finished video is used as a template and the software looks for the exact same clips from the source files.
Then it edits it all together.
I presume such a thing can't be super expensive because Paul Rubens himself paid for the restoration of Pee Wee.
The problem at this point is the estate owns all of this and in 2023 they wouldn't really financially benefit from such a project.
It would almost have to be a 4K music video collection or something....
Would that really sell? Probably not....
Another issue is special effects. Most CGI/green screen effects in the 80-90's were all created in SD. For shows like X-Files it had to all be created and looked pretty terrible. I can think several of his videos that would be impossible to recreate.
Click to expand...

Usually when the intention is to deliver in a certain aspect ratio the directors monitor will show lines (bars) across the viewable area. In this area the talent will be placed or whatever the focus is of the shot. The rest of the frame will have whatever was drawn in the storyboard, even though subject of interest is aspect ratio 4:3, that doesn't mean there will be crew walking about in other parts of the frame. This will be silly as this will make the frame unusable for a different aspect ratio if the requirement of delivery changed.

I think it's all there in the original negative (2.40:1 or maybe even 1.85:1), when it was edited (cut) it was delivered to 4:3 aspect ratio as TV then can only display 4:3 aspect ratio. Remember MTV played the video which was also 4:3 aspect ratio, it was broadcasted 720 x 576 (PAL) and 704 x 480 (NTSC) aspect ratio 4:3. Broadcast houses probably had it delivered on U matic tape machines to play.

I think the recent delivery to 4k has been transcoded from the 4:3 film edit for YouTube delivery, not forgetting that YouTube compresses the file when you upload. So the quality isn't as it comes out of a professional 4K camera...

If the estate really wanted to they can go back to the original film print scan it to digital and then cut it in AVID, Final Cut Pro or even Premier Pro. I'm sure they still have the time code of the cuts, then grade it using Davinci Resolve, add the original sound track. Then deliver to whichever aspect ratio and consumer delivery format.

If they did that to all the short films that were recorded on film, these can be released to cinema for MJ fans to enjoy in all there glory once again. They will sell tickets like 'hot cakes'!

There wasn't any green screen stuff, that didn't exist back in the 80s it was all manual effects and make up and masks etc. The quality will be as good as the film American werewolf in London, which Thriller is based on. This film was shot in 1.85:1 aspect ratio.
 
MJ_Moonwalk said:
Usually when the intention is to deliver in a certain aspect ratio the directors monitor will show lines (bars) across the viewable area. In this area the talent will be placed or whatever the focus is of the shot. The rest of the frame will have whatever was drawn in the storyboard, even though subject of interest is aspect ratio 4:3, that doesn't mean there will be crew walking about in other parts of the frame. This will be silly as this will make the frame unusable for a different aspect ratio if the requirement of delivery changed.

I think it's all there in the original negative (2.40:1 or maybe even 1.85:1), when it was edited (cut) it was delivered to 4:3 aspect ratio as TV then can only display 4:3 aspect ratio. Remember MTV played the video which was also 4:3 aspect ratio, it was broadcasted 720 x 576 (PAL) and 704 x 480 (NTSC) aspect ratio 4:3. Broadcast houses probably had it delivered on U matic tape machines to play.

I think the recent delivery to 4k has been transcoded from the 4:3 film edit for YouTube delivery, not forgetting that YouTube compresses the file when you upload. So the quality isn't as it comes out of a professional 4K camera...

If the estate really wanted to they can go back to the original film print scan it to digital and then cut it in AVID, Final Cut Pro or even Premier Pro. I'm sure they still have the time code of the cuts, then grade it using Davinci Resolve, add the original sound track. Then deliver to whichever aspect ratio and consumer delivery format.

If they did that to all the short films that were recorded on film, these can be released to cinema for MJ fans to enjoy in all there glory once again. They will sell tickets like 'hot cakes'!

There wasn't any green screen stuff, that didn't exist back in the 80s it was all manual effects and make up and masks etc. The quality will be as good as the film American werewolf in London, which Thriller is based on. This film was shot in 1.85:1 aspect ratio.
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I'm not talking about just Thriller. Many of his videos included special effects and stop animation. It would likely be impossible to recreate some of them the same way today.

The original negative for each of these videos would have to be rescanned. That costs money/time.
It's not simply re-editing.... They probably used 3-4 different cameras. For that 4 minute music video there might be hours of footage.
It's not a usual practice to keep some sort of time log/cut sheet. That's not a thing because it's not all one long cut.
I bet he did 50 different dance takes....
Like I said, there are likely multiple sources. No way it was filmed with one camera on one reel.
It's possible the full print is 16x9 and it was just cropped/matted... Hard to say....
What's on Youtube isn't an upscale. It appears to be from the source.
The source wouldn't be 4:3.
But that doesn't mean the 16x9 version is usable for my above mentions. If the space beyond 4:3 weren't going to be used they may not have paid attention to that space.

Also, very few artists are releasing 4k restorations of their videos. You just see a bunch of upscales. Why?
Because the original videos were edited on tape or SD editing machines and the negatives were discarded.
Even if an artist had the negatives, re-editing a semi high budget music video without some sort of AI tool would likely cost 10k....
Just because of the time involved to match things up. You're basically re-editing the entire thing. Sure, you have a template, but if anything that makes it more difficult and time intensive.
 
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The point I'm trying to make here without getting into the microscopic detail of delivery to the end user.

"...Thriller, Beat It and Billie Jean..."

If they where shot in film negative then they can be potentially be delivered to any aspect ratio up to film negative resolution (I think it's 5.6K, film grain dependent)
 
pinballmaster said:
The problem at this point is the estate owns all of this and in 2023 they wouldn't really financially benefit from such a project.
It would almost have to be a 4K music video collection or something....
Would that really sell? Probably not....
Click to expand...
Will it sell today in 2023? Doubtful. We're at the end of the era of physical media.

Will it sell if they wait another 7 years until 2030? Definitely not. Every year that goes by is another reduction in the possible profits.
 
Hi

Thriller and Beat it were shot on 35mm 4 perf which provides a larger choice of ratio (1.77, 1.85, 2.35), then it depends on the director's monitor view (filming format and plan) and photography choice

My guess "Beat it" could be transfered to a 1.85 (16/9 equiv) see Moonwalker's sample, but Thriller was definitely aimed to be seen as a 1.85 format, it was available in some LA theaters back in 1983

Concerning Victory tour, the super 16mm (2 perf) can't provide anything wider as 1.85 without badly cropping some areas

Keep in mind that 4 perf film provides more details and more format to be chosen
 
R1chard said:
Will it sell today in 2023? Doubtful. We're at the end of the era of physical media.

Will it sell if they wait another 7 years until 2030? Definitely not. Every year that goes by is another reduction in the possible profits.
Click to expand...

That's really it: there simply isn't a market there for it.

As for the 35mm scan situation, this is not something exclusive to MJ: A lot of music videos were done on film in the 80s-90s. But they were made for TV, and sometimes VHS release. They were telecine'd, edited on tape, and mastered on tape.

The masters are Standard Definition tapes. To do a 4k transfer, one would need to find the original film elements (if they do exist still), rescan them all, find every shot in the master video and try to locate them in the film scan, and do an edit from scratch shot-by-shot.

Trouble is: in the case of Billie Jean, it may have been shot on film, but the video is full of video effects - even if the original negatives exists today, they would need to be in good shape, otherwise it means extensive and costly restoration, it also means recreating digitally 80s video effects from the time, shot by shot. Costly too.

The music videos that were made on film and edited on film are the ones that can be more easily be transferred to 4k: Beat It and Thriller do not contains video effects at all. For example: The Way You Make Me Feel would be the same case.

Many fans forget that it's not simple:
- One need to locate film elements that were used once during the production of the videos, before editing started, and may be lost.
- Even if the films are found, they may be unusable for a variety of reasons and may need restoration. Which costs money.
- Since the masters were edited and made on music videos, and because no EDL existed, one need to scan every frame from every negatives found and then conform it to the masters. Which takes times and money. Scanning is a costly process too.
- Some frames may be missing from the negatives. If the film was edited on tape, it means there were no dupe made, or internegative.
- The special effects were mastered on tape for a SD release. It's highly doubtful that the original rendering file from the SFX teams exists today, or are even readable at all. It means upscaling, frame-by-frame. That also takes time to do right. It's very costly.

Look, I'd love to see MJ's videos in HD, but one has to realize that it's not as simple as that. It's not a straightforward process.

Beat It and Thriller were shot on film and edited on film: they were prime candidates. IIRC, The only other music videos from MJ that were shot on film, edited on film, not edited on tape and do not contains any video effects whatsoever:
- Leave Me Alone
- The Way Your Make Me Feel
- Bad
- Speed Demon
- Come Together
- Liberian Girl

Pretty much everything afterwards contains video effects.
 
eckoes said:
That's really it: there simply isn't a market there for it.

As for the 35mm scan situation, this is not something exclusive to MJ: A lot of music videos were done on film in the 80s-90s. But they were made for TV, and sometimes VHS release. They were telecine'd, edited on tape, and mastered on tape.

The masters are Standard Definition tapes. To do a 4k transfer, one would need to find the original film elements (if they do exist still), rescan them all, find every shot in the master video and try to locate them in the film scan, and do an edit from scratch shot-by-shot.

Trouble is: in the case of Billie Jean, it may have been shot on film, but the video is full of video effects - even if the original negatives exists today, they would need to be in good shape, otherwise it means extensive and costly restoration, it also means recreating digitally 80s video effects from the time, shot by shot. Costly too.

The music videos that were made on film and edited on film are the ones that can be more easily be transferred to 4k: Beat It and Thriller do not contains video effects at all. For example: The Way You Make Me Feel would be the same case.

Many fans forget that it's not simple:
- One need to locate film elements that were used once during the production of the videos, before editing started, and may be lost.
- Even if the films are found, they may be unusable for a variety of reasons and may need restoration. Which costs money.
- Since the masters were edited and made on music videos, and because no EDL existed, one need to scan every frame from every negatives found and then conform it to the masters. Which takes times and money. Scanning is a costly process too.
- Some frames may be missing from the negatives. If the film was edited on tape, it means there were no dupe made, or internegative.
- The special effects were mastered on tape for a SD release. It's highly doubtful that the original rendering file from the SFX teams exists today, or are even readable at all. It means upscaling, frame-by-frame. That also takes time to do right. It's very costly.

Look, I'd love to see MJ's videos in HD, but one has to realize that it's not as simple as that. It's not a straightforward process.

Beat It and Thriller were shot on film and edited on film: they were prime candidates. IIRC, The only other music videos from MJ that were shot on film, edited on film, not edited on tape and do not contains any video effects whatsoever:
- Leave Me Alone
- The Way Your Make Me Feel
- Bad
- Speed Demon
- Come Together
- Liberian Girl

Pretty much everything afterwards contains video effects.
Click to expand...
Interesting, thanks for explaining! Though it leaves me wondering why the short films you mentioned that were shot and edited on film haven't been released in HD?
 
flight85 said:
Interesting, thanks for explaining! Though it leaves me wondering why the short films you mentioned that were shot and edited on film haven't been released in HD?
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Same reasons: it cost money. And they also needs to still exists in 2023.

First of all, even if those films have been edited on film at the time, one need to find the film elements. Do they still exists (negatives, sure, but sometimes only an interpositivw remains)? If so, have they been located? Were they properly stored?

Finding elements costs money. Then, one would need to restore them mechanically if they are degraded, which is expensive. Then, one would need to scan it all, which costs money. Then, restoring them digitally, which costs money. Also, film grading.

All of that costs money. There need to be a reason. Thriller 40 was a good reason to restore Thriller and Beat It: the budget was there, there was a marketing financial incentive to do so.

Billie Jean was different. It was shot on film, yes, but fully edited on standard-definition video, full of video effects from 1983. It's absolutely possible that the original film elements have not been located or simply doesn't exists anymore. Those things happens. The Master Tape exists for the standard definition video though. Even if the film elements were to be found, it would still need examination and conforming to find where the pictures are coming from on the film reels, and redo the edit from scratch. Also recreating the video effects from 1983 would need extensive expertise and care. It's not as simple as scanning a film.

Prime candidates for 4k: shot on film, edited on film, special effects made on film:
Ex: Beat it, Thriller, Bad (except the on-screen credits and titles made on video), The Way You Make Me Feel, everything from Moonwalker (Leave Me Alone, Come Together, Speed Demon, Smooth Criminal), Liberian Girl (except the end credits that were done on video)

Need conforming/reedit: shot on film, edited on video, no special effects:
Ex: Dirty Diana (rough cut was entirely made on film, it was re-edited on video), Another Part Of Me (except some scenes in the intro that comes from videos), Who Is It, Blood I'm The Dance Floor

Needs extensive work: shot on film, edited on video, standard-definition SFX:
Ex: Billie Jean, everything that contains CGIs (scream, black or white, remember the time, jam, earth song, you are not alone, etc. )


In any case: Michael's music video are not straightforward affairs. There are many reasons, most of them purely technical, that could make it very costly (conforming, scanning, color grading, restoration, upscaling and CGI remaking) or downright impossible (film elements losts or unusable).
 
I apologize, but I feel like you're just making things up.....
Videos you've listed have special effects. Green screen is an effect. Transitions are effects. Stop animation is an effect.
It would not be easy to recreate these unless high quality film prints already exist.
Music videos were distributed on tape, not film.....
I wouldn't be surprised in Jackson was the sole person to have a copy.....
So I doubt more than 5 film prints even exist for each video.... Probably less....
Speed Demon in particular uses stop animation/green screen and would be "impossible" to re-create.
There is a difference from the video being captured on film and being edited on film.
Until around 05/06 99% of music videos were edited with SD tape bays...
Or they'd scan the negatives and do everything digitally. SD digitally..... Not HD..... Unless the editing company had something really expensive like a Pixar machine they couldn't even export HD videos until around this same time.... I doubt the negatives even exist for most of those videos.... Probably scanned and then discarded.... This might be different for a super popular artist like Jackson, but I doubt it....
Also, if there were NEVER intentions on releasing these videos in theaters or in widescreen, yet again I state the director wouldn't have paid close attention to the sides of the frame. It's not accurate to just say they did....
I filmed many things knowing I'd be chopping off the sides in post.... I remember the days of people saying "should we move it?"
And me replying "nah, we aren't going to see it anyways....."
 
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pinballmaster said:
I apologize, but I feel like you're just making things up.....
Videos you've listed have special effects. Green screen is an effect. Transitions are effects. Stop animation is an effect.
It would not be easy to recreate these unless high quality film prints already exist.
Music videos were distributed on tape, not film.....
I wouldn't be surprised in Jackson was the sole person to have a copy.....
So I doubt more than 5 film prints even exist for each video.... Probably less....
Speed Demon in particular uses stop animation/green screen and would be "impossible" to re-create.
There is a difference from the video being captured on film and being edited on film.
Until around 05/06 99% of music videos were edited with SD tape bays...
They'd scan the negatives and do everything digitally. SD digitally..... Not HD..... Unless the editing company had something really expensive like a Pixar machine they couldn't even export HD videos until around this same time.... I doubt the negatives even exist for most of those videos.... Probably scanned and then discarded.... This might be different for a super popular artist like Jackson, but I doubt it....
Also, if there were NEVER intentions on releasing these videos in theaters or in widescreen, yet again I state the director wouldn't have paid close attention to the sides of the frame. It's not accurate to just say they did....
I filmed many things knowing I'd be chopping off the sides in post.... I remember the days of people saying "should we move it?"
And me replying "nah, we aren't going to see it anyways....."
Click to expand...

That's why there are interpositive elements. Green/Blue Screen was an entirely analogic photochemical process at the time, same with fades. every compositing was done on-film. Leave Me Alone and Speed Demon were done entirely in the analogue world, in 35mm no less. An interpositive was used for the Blu-ray transfer.

There was no need for the attitude and accusations. There's enough trouble in the world already to add another layer of it on a forum dedicated to an artist we all love here. Peace
 
There would need to be a real benefit to putting all the videos out in 4K.

If only there was a unique and popular platform to put videos out on aside from YouTube. The glory days of MTV is gone.
 
eckoes said:
Same reasons: it cost money. And they also needs to still exists in 2023.

First of all, even if those films have been edited on film at the time, one need to find the film elements. Do they still exists (negatives, sure, but sometimes only an interpositivw remains)? If so, have they been located? Were they properly stored?

Finding elements costs money. Then, one would need to restore them mechanically if they are degraded, which is expensive. Then, one would need to scan it all, which costs money. Then, restoring them digitally, which costs money. Also, film grading.

All of that costs money. There need to be a reason. Thriller 40 was a good reason to restore Thriller and Beat It: the budget was there, there was a marketing financial incentive to do so.

Billie Jean was different. It was shot on film, yes, but fully edited on standard-definition video, full of video effects from 1983. It's absolutely possible that the original film elements have not been located or simply doesn't exists anymore. Those things happens. The Master Tape exists for the standard definition video though. Even if the film elements were to be found, it would still need examination and conforming to find where the pictures are coming from on the film reels, and redo the edit from scratch. Also recreating the video effects from 1983 would need extensive expertise and care. It's not as simple as scanning a film.

Prime candidates for 4k: shot on film, edited on film, special effects made on film:
Ex: Beat it, Thriller, Bad (except the on-screen credits and titles made on video), The Way You Make Me Feel, everything from Moonwalker (Leave Me Alone, Come Together, Speed Demon, Smooth Criminal), Liberian Girl (except the end credits that were done on video)

Need conforming/reedit: shot on film, edited on video, no special effects:
Ex: Dirty Diana (rough cut was entirely made on film, it was re-edited on video), Another Part Of Me (except some scenes in the intro that comes from videos), Who Is It, Blood I'm The Dance Floor

Needs extensive work: shot on film, edited on video, standard-definition SFX:
Ex: Billie Jean, everything that contains CGIs (scream, black or white, remember the time, jam, earth song, you are not alone, etc. )


In any case: Michael's music video are not straightforward affairs. There are many reasons, most of them purely technical, that could make it very costly (conforming, scanning, color grading, restoration, upscaling and CGI remaking) or downright impossible (film elements losts or unusable).
Click to expand...
You keep saying "it cost money" as if the mj estate isn't worth billions. They got it. They just don't gaf about it. You Make it seem like it's the most impossible thing ever. I remember a guy (not sure how he got the film) that was gonna redo the history teaser & the estate blocked it. He was also going to do captain eo but still no word. I think it's the same guy doin the a.i videos but...I dont think it takes 20years to restore Michael Jackson's short films! The biggest,the best superstar & he has 480p quality videos. He would be so pissed if he saw what was going on right now. Thriller & beat it look brand new & they were shot in 83...I can now only imagine what the others could look like. Especially Can You Feel It! Something needs to be done asap!
 
wonderouzmj said:
You keep saying "it cost money" as if the mj estate isn't worth billions. They got it. They just don't gaf about it. You Make it seem like it's the most impossible thing ever. I remember a guy (not sure how he got the film) that was gonna redo the history teaser & the estate blocked it. He was also going to do captain eo but still no word. I think it's the same guy doin the a.i videos but...I dont think it takes 20years to restore Michael Jackson's short films! The biggest,the best superstar & he has 480p quality videos. He would be so pissed if he saw what was going on right now. Thriller & beat it look brand new & they were shot in 83...I can now only imagine what the others could look like. Especially Can You Feel It! Something needs to be done asap!
Click to expand...
I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just saying that it's not straightforward.

The History teaser was a straightforward 35mm scan of a film print, it's possible that an interpositive exists, sure. Captain EO could also be done as such, since it was all analo
 
eckoes said:
I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just saying that it's not straightforward.

The History teaser was a straightforward 35mm scan of a film print, it's possible that an interpositive exists, sure. Captain EO could also be done as such, since it was all analo
Click to expand...
Just me thinking about it... why do you think his film negatives are missing? I understand the billie jean situation. Steve barron bluntly said they threw the og negatives away but I just highly doubt the others are lost. John nem just don't give a damn
 
wonderouzmj said:
Just me thinking about it... why do you think his film negatives are missing? I understand the billie jean situation. Steve barron bluntly said they threw the og negatives away but I just highly doubt the others are lost. John nem just don't give a damn
Click to expand...
They don't seem to have all the Bad Tour film negatives so many things might have gone missing over the years.
 
wonderouzmj said:
Just me thinking about it... why do you think his film negatives are missing?
Click to expand...
Just think about how much stuff there was. Probably hundreds of thousands of reels/tapes, maybe even millions. That's probably like 10 complete storage locations (not 10 units, but 10 complete buildings). It would be a nightmare to keep track of, especially if you don't even know what some of it is. Most people change jobs every 3 years, that would include the archivist...

Then factor in that some of it has been there for more than 40 years, when most storage locations get moved or closed down every 5-10 years, or else the company goes out of business, gets taken over, etc.

It wouldn't surprise me if the majority of it was either missing, misplaced, stolen, or else had deteriorated to the point it's unusable, got wet, burnt, eaten by mice, etc. We've seen this already with Wembley.

What makes you think they've actually got them?
 
R1chard said:
Just think about how much stuff there was. Probably hundreds of thousands of reels/tapes, maybe even millions. That's probably like 10 complete storage locations (not 10 units, but 10 complete buildings). It would be a nightmare to keep track of, especially if you don't even know what some of it is. Most people change jobs every 3 years, that would include the archivist...

Then factor in that some of it has been there for more than 40 years, when most storage locations get moved or closed down every 5-10 years, or else the company goes out of business, gets taken over, etc.

It wouldn't surprise me if the majority of it was either missing, misplaced, stolen, or else had deteriorated to the point it's unusable, got wet, burnt, eaten by mice, etc. We've seen this already with Wembley.

What makes you think they've actually got them?
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What makes you think I believe them when they give us 5-10 4k clips. Even the bts bad clips from b25 are in 4k & so many other things. Again... this is Michael Jackson we're talking about. You can't get any bigger than him & you mean to tell me you honestly in your heart believe that & they can't hire anyone to find them? We all here would probably take that job with all effort at that & all the shorts mj shot... they can't remaster them & the way technically is today in '24 vs the 80s & 90s... you think it's not technically inclined to do just that?! Thriller was finished in the can in 2017....2017!!! & we didn't get it until what 4-5 years later. Don't believe everything their lazy asses tell you. They block everyone else from doing great work because they own the image & likeness of him. So yeah I still call bs!
 
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wonderouzmj said:
this is Michael Jackson we're talking about. You can't get any bigger than him
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Just because it's MJ, that doesn't mean everything else around him is operating at a top level. Basically, these are normal people doing normal jobs, and they encounter normal problems.

In my company we keep documents for 30 years. But they periodically get moved from room to room, and sometimes there's a new manager who decides he wants to outsource it. Then, 2 years later, the outsourcing company changes their terms and conditions, so we take everything back in. Not to mention that very few people stay in the company for 30 years. It's a complete mess. If somebody was to ask for the records for 13th October 1998, nobody would have a clue where to start looking.

wonderouzmj said:
you mean to tell me you honestly in your heart believe that & they can't hire anyone to find them?
Click to expand...
What if they did hire someone, and that person looked, and they couldn't find them?

You're simplifying this way too much.

Pick a person you live with. Now try to write down EVERYTHING that they own - every single item. Now try to find one item at random. And that's just a small family who have maybe 10 rooms and a garage. Now imagine you've gotta search 10,000 rooms and hundreds of garages in different cities.

wonderouzmj said:
Don't believe everything their lazy asses tell you.
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I don't. That's why I'm saying it's not guaranteed they have everything they need. The "estate" isn't nearly as professional as you seem to think.
 
I wonder what the Estate actually thinks about the Warren Eagles' Bad Tour Wembley blog post. Maybe they have searched for the material but can't find a full concert.
 
wonderouzmj said:
What makes you think I believe them when they give us 5-10 4k clips. Even the bts bad clips from b25 are in 4k & so many other things. Again... this is Michael Jackson we're talking about. You can't get any bigger than him & you mean to tell me you honestly in your heart believe that & they can't hire anyone to find them? We all here would probably take that job with all effort at that & all the shorts mj shot... they can't remaster them & the way technically is today in '24 vs the 80s & 90s... you think it's not technically inclined to do just that?! Thriller was finished in the can in 2017....2017!!! & we didn't get it until what 4-5 years later. Don't believe everything their lazy asses tell you. They block everyone else from doing great work because they own the image & likeness of him. So yeah I still call bs!
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You are over simplifying things. All we said was:
- one would need to find the original film elements. Do they still exists? And if they do, where are they? And if we find them, are they still in good conditions (proper storage, color have not faded, film has not warped, etc)? And if they are, are they complete? do they need mechanical or/and photochemical restoration?

And that is just step 1 of many. It's not easy. We never said, anywhere, that it was impossible. We have just said that, because it is MJ, and that he used to hire so many different firms over the years to film a lot of stuffs that have been unreleased, that finding ANYTHING is already a not-so-trivial task. That's it.

Tone down the attitude, please. The fact that Beat It original negatives were found and restored, same for Thriller, is already quite exceptional for music videos. We are not saying the task is impossible, it's just not as simple.

I'll give you three examples: Frank Zappa, Eddie Van Halen and Prince. They got all their archives properly stored at one place: master tapes, film negatives, multitracks, live tapes, session tapes, the whole lot. Everything is in there, stored correctly and in good shape. Even with the knowledge that everything is available, and with a huge budget to start with, and the will to release stuffs from their vaults by their estate, it still took a huge expertise to go through it all, catalog them, restore them and all. And this is in the case of three artists who had everything stored properly in one place and a willing estate. Even in the best case scenario, it's not as simple as one may think.

MJ had so much stuffs stored everywhere but lots of different people. Most of it unreleased. It's not simple. Really not. Stop repeating that "the estate lies" rethoric, and look: it's not simple. At all.
 
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Galactus123 said:
I wonder what the Estate actually thinks about the Warren Eagles' Bad Tour Wembley blog post. Maybe they have searched for the material but can't find a full concert.
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He did it in 1988. All it proves is that something was worked on around 1988. Almost four decades ago. Since then, management changed, warehouses were filled with archives, countless documentaries were started and shelved, on si many different formats. It only proves that, yeah, those things existed in 1988. But today, where could it be? The estate has said they were aware of many different concert film projects having been started over the years, but that they need to find it.

In Thriller 40, one can see part of the Girl Is Mine session. Mind you, it's not the original negatives they found, but a VHS copy of it (and it shows). Where are the negatives of the sessions? Do they still exists? Maybe not.

Same with Wembley 1988. They found a VHS copy for BAD 25, because the original Umatic was not found at the time. It has been found now but it took time. It's not simple.
 
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How hard would it be to remaster You Rock My World in 4K though? That's an easy place to start.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
How hard would it be to remaster You Rock My World in 4K though? That's an easy place to start.
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it does seems to be full 35mm, no CGI on it. It could work.


I just remembered: The Triumph in 1981 (Can You Feel It) was done in 35mm and projected in theaters at the time. It could work out fine too. The original SD telecine video transfer from the time has badly aged.
 
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