My ambivalent feeling about the leaks

[someplace_else]

I totally agree with your feelings, I don't jump for joy because of the leaks, but I love to hear some "new" material, to get an idea of what Michael worked on and maybe to have a little hope that we will get something in the future.

Will it be the same like buying a new album, when Michael was still here, knowing he and his team worked like maniacs on it, 'til they were satisfied? No. But tbh I don't really know how that feels like because I am simply too young. My first albums were HIStory and BOTDF, I got them because they were a gift, I was like 6 years old. But at that age you don't really understand how much work and dedication goes into the music.

Also I don't listen very often to the posthumous albums or Invincible, I just feel like his soul is missing on them, can't explain...

So, well...I get it. It's bittersweet, but it's something .

 

[thiron]

Thank you very much for this thread. I think its a good thing to not only discuss the leaked songs themselves, but also the concept of leaking or even officially releasing unfinished songs.

In some ways I have similar feelings like you. Or, to be more precise, Im not a huge fan of leaking songs anymore. In fact, I havent listened to any major leak since the release of the Xscape album (there was one small exception).
One major point is the question "Would MJ want unfinished songs to be released?". This has been discussed intensively since at least 2010 - and we will never have a definitive answer. Obviously, he hated leaks of work-in-progress songs that he wished to finish and release at a later point. Would he also hate to show work-in-progress songs to his fans after his passing, maybe even comforting them in this way? I dont know. I like to think he wouldnt mind it, but we will never know.

The main point Im struggling with is the way songs are getting leaked, and that is really making me feel uncomfortable. How did most of the leaks over the past couple of years happen? Illegally recording songs in seminars or in the copyright office, stealing personal laptops from MJ collaboratos, hacking into personal cloud storages of collaborators and looting them. When Lordjackson stole Brads laptop and many people on this forum applauded him for theft, I could not believe that reaction. Sure, new MJ music may be cool. But commiting crimes for it? To be honest, that way pretty disgusting to me and I had to leave the forum for a couple of months (there were more reasons, as it was very unmoderated). I dont want to listen to songs you stole from people MJ trusted! And Im pretty sure that MJ would not have liked his songs getting out this way either.

My third pain point with leaks: The presentation. Lets be real, 95% of leaked songs are rough demos. They obviously almost never seem like the perfectly crafted hit songs MJ created during his lifetime. And thats okay, because they are demos. But in that case, I think its important to put them into the right context. That can be done by presenting them along with the circumstances they were created in: Let collaborators tell the story how that demo was crafted, what MJ contributed and what he was aiming to do with it. That makes it a whole different thing than just putting some weird sounding drum loop on Youtube, maybe even spreading fake info by doing silly AI tricks for attention. For example, I really enjoyed hearing Brad Sundberg tell the background of demos or writers demos and then playing them.
Im really interested in the way MJ created songs and how his creativity worked. I would love more studio footage, both video and audio, along with studio stories and song infos.

My personal wish: Release the demos officially and thematically on fitting compilation albums. Add interviews, studio footage and as much info as possible to those demos. Present them as interesting relics of their time with the necessary information to understand what they are, in order to better understand MJs way of being creative.
I will keep on passing the leaks (even if some seem super intriguing from people describing them) and hope that someday, there will be an estate willing to do high quality releases. I can understand anyone being frustrated with the current estate.

 

[wendijane]

If this thread should be integrated in the leak discussion thread, please put it there - I just felt that this is a kind of extra topic.
When the songs leaked last week, I first felt "good" about it in the sense of finally hearing them/hearing something I didn't know before. I liked what I heard and I even had tears in my eyes hearing RWITY the first time. Now some days have passed and I feel different about it. To explain my shift, I would like to tell you about hearing OMC the first time. I grew up in German countryside and was a teenager when Number Ones came out. My mother drove to the store in the nearest city on release day of Number Ones - I was really thankful when she gave the CD to me in the evening. I took it and closed the door of my room, sat in front of my CD player, put it in and skipped directly to OMC. There were no disctractions. The strings started and I immediately fell in love with the song from the very first second. It was overwhelming. Because of my age, most new MJ songs came out when I was a child and I got to know them incidently. This was the first time I consciously enjoyed hearing a brand new MJ track. When Michael started singing, I was in heaven. I was completely blown away by his voice and his soul in the song. The muggles outside don't know OMC, but to me it will always be a special song, alone because of that intense moment. I learned that hearing a new MJ song the first time is something that happens only once. And this first magic is different to the magic I might feel listening to a song regularly later.

Now when the leaks came out, I took some time, put on headphones, tried to put all distractions aside, and listened. And I was also fascinated, but the feeling wasn't the same. I learned about the tracks from a fellow fan who sent me a YouTube link to one of the leaks and I couldn't focus myself on a perfectly mixed and finished song, but I kind of "consumed" the leaks. I like them, but I also felt "bad", because I assume leaks were a catastrophe to Michael. I assume, he always wanted us to get perfect quality. He wanted us to get a finished product of only the best of the best that he and everybody on his team put in. I think he wanted us to be blown away. I assume he wouldn't have wanted that we hear unfinished songs in low quality. Comparing my leak experience to my OMC experience, it was a complete different situation. I was disctracted by the comment sections, I was learning about the songs in the middle of the day, I didn't ceremonially buy them somewhere and made out time to sit down and do nothing else but listening and embracing the ecstasy of the first time hearing a new MJ song.

Please don't understand me in the sense of blaming someone of something. I am not to judge whether it was "right" or "wrong" leaking songs, I also am not talking about the estate here. I am completely dissatisfied with the estate's behavior towards us and its non-communication and non-intuition with us. But this is not my topic here. I am also not judging anyone's decision to hear or not to hear leaked music. It's just that I think I might rather stay with officially released music in future, because leaks are such an undignified way to introduce Michael's work to us. It would have been so much more magical to have an album or at least a single in hands and celebrating that. Which is why I hope the estate is going to overthink its strategy relating to protecting Michael's legacy so that in future this doesn't happen anymore. But I am not very hopeful that they will learn anything from this.

Anyone feeling that shift of emotions as well?

yeah ..I go slow and still that's not enough. it's mostly painfilled. and feelings of uncertainty. welcome back @Sarah_MJ

 

[someplace_else]

The main point Im struggling with is the way songs are getting leaked, and that is really making me feel uncomfortable.

Important point...tbh I don't have an overview what leaked in which way and I also push the thought to the side because I am just glad to hear Michael's voice and to be able to listen to what he was working on... nevertheless it's clearly heartbreaking how some people act.

Especially stealing from Brad, who I feel like wants to give us an honest glimpse into how (working with) Michael really was is a shame, because he's one of the nicest and funnies people and definitely puts his heart into the seminars.

 

[anniina81]

If this thread should be integrated in the leak discussion thread, please put it there - I just felt that this is a kind of extra topic.
When the songs leaked last week, I first felt "good" about it in the sense of finally hearing them/hearing something I didn't know before. I liked what I heard and I even had tears in my eyes hearing RWITY the first time. Now some days have passed and I feel different about it. To explain my shift, I would like to tell you about hearing OMC the first time. I grew up in German countryside and was a teenager when Number Ones came out. My mother drove to the store in the nearest city on release day of Number Ones - I was really thankful when she gave the CD to me in the evening. I took it and closed the door of my room, sat in front of my CD player, put it in and skipped directly to OMC. There were no disctractions. The strings started and I immediately fell in love with the song from the very first second. It was overwhelming. Because of my age, most new MJ songs came out when I was a child and I got to know them incidently. This was the first time I consciously enjoyed hearing a brand new MJ track. When Michael started singing, I was in heaven. I was completely blown away by his voice and his soul in the song. The muggles outside don't know OMC, but to me it will always be a special song, alone because of that intense moment. I learned that hearing a new MJ song the first time is something that happens only once. And this first magic is different to the magic I might feel listening to a song regularly later.

Now when the leaks came out, I took some time, put on headphones, tried to put all distractions aside, and listened. And I was also fascinated, but the feeling wasn't the same. I learned about the tracks from a fellow fan who sent me a YouTube link to one of the leaks and I couldn't focus myself on a perfectly mixed and finished song, but I kind of "consumed" the leaks. I like them, but I also felt "bad", because I assume leaks were a catastrophe to Michael. I assume, he always wanted us to get perfect quality. He wanted us to get a finished product of only the best of the best that he and everybody on his team put in. I think he wanted us to be blown away. I assume he wouldn't have wanted that we hear unfinished songs in low quality. Comparing my leak experience to my OMC experience, it was a complete different situation. I was disctracted by the comment sections, I was learning about the songs in the middle of the day, I didn't ceremonially buy them somewhere and made out time to sit down and do nothing else but listening and embracing the ecstasy of the first time hearing a new MJ song.

Please don't understand me in the sense of blaming someone of something. I am not to judge whether it was "right" or "wrong" leaking songs, I also am not talking about the estate here. I am completely dissatisfied with the estate's behavior towards us and its non-communication and non-intuition with us. But this is not my topic here. I am also not judging anyone's decision to hear or not to hear leaked music. It's just that I think I might rather stay with officially released music in future, because leaks are such an undignified way to introduce Michael's work to us. It would have been so much more magical to have an album or at least a single in hands and celebrating that. Which is why I hope the estate is going to overthink its strategy relating to protecting Michael's legacy so that in future this doesn't happen anymore. But I am not very hopeful that they will learn anything from this.

Anyone feeling that shift of emotions as well?

Yes. Well, I'm not big fan of leaks, of course they are beautiful but they're clearly unfinished. I feel it's not right. Should never forget that Michael had very strong opinions about his unfinished work. What was not finished should not be released. I have been fan from -80's. He was my childhood, teenage years and adulthood too. Well, it's 17 years this year but i still, i'll never get over his death.

 

[Sarah_MJ]

I totally agree with your feelings, I don't jump for joy because of the leaks, but I love to hear some "new" material, to get an idea of what Michael worked on and maybe to have a little hope that we will get something in the future.

Will it be the same like buying a new album, when Michael was still here, knowing he and his team worked like maniacs on it, 'til they were satisfied? No. But tbh I don't really know how that feels like because I am simply too young. My first albums were HIStory and BOTDF, I got them because they were a gift, I was like 6 years old. But at that age you don't really understand how much work and dedication goes into the music.

Also I don't listen very often to the posthumous albums or Invincible, I just feel like his soul is missing on them, can't explain...

So, well...I get it. It's bittersweet, but it's something .

I get you, we're the same generation and it's similar to me. I envy those who experienced the release of earlier albums consciously... (but I am also happy for them ) Also I couldn't see Michael live because I was too young. This is it would have been my first concert.
Today I woke up and had Neverland Landing in mind. Now I heard it on repeat the whole morning. I think I love the music, I just don't like the way we were introduced to it. And that also has to do with the estate's behavior.

 

[Sarah_MJ]

Thank you very much for this thread. I think its a good thing to not only discuss the leaked songs themselves, but also the concept of leaking or even officially releasing unfinished songs.

In some ways I have similar feelings like you. Or, to be more precise, Im not a huge fan of leaking songs anymore. In fact, I havent listened to any major leak since the release of the Xscape album (there was one small exception).
One major point is the question "Would MJ want unfinished songs to be released?". This has been discussed intensively since at least 2010 - and we will never have a definitive answer. Obviously, he hated leaks of work-in-progress songs that he wished to finish and release at a later point. Would he also hate to show work-in-progress songs to his fans after his passing, maybe even comforting them in this way? I dont know. I like to think he wouldnt mind it, but we will never know.

The main point Im struggling with is the way songs are getting leaked, and that is really making me feel uncomfortable. How did most of the leaks over the past couple of years happen? Illegally recording songs in seminars or in the copyright office, stealing personal laptops from MJ collaboratos, hacking into personal cloud storages of collaborators and looting them. When Lordjackson stole Brads laptop and many people on this forum applauded him for theft, I could not believe that reaction. Sure, new MJ music may be cool. But commiting crimes for it? To be honest, that way pretty disgusting to me and I had to leave the forum for a couple of months (there were more reasons, as it was very unmoderated). I dont want to listen to songs you stole from people MJ trusted! And Im pretty sure that MJ would not have liked his songs getting out this way either.

My third pain point with leaks: The presentation. Lets be real, 95% of leaked songs are rough demos. They obviously almost never seem like the perfectly crafted hit songs MJ created during his lifetime. And thats okay, because they are demos. But in that case, I think its important to put them into the right context. That can be done by presenting them along with the circumstances they were created in: Let collaborators tell the story how that demo was crafted, what MJ contributed and what he was aiming to do with it. That makes it a whole different thing than just putting some weird sounding drum loop on Youtube, maybe even spreading fake info by doing silly AI tricks for attention. For example, I really enjoyed hearing Brad Sundberg tell the background of demos or writers demos and then playing them.
Im really interested in the way MJ created songs and how his creativity worked. I would love more studio footage, both video and audio, along with studio stories and song infos.

My personal wish: Release the demos officially and thematically on fitting compilation albums. Add interviews, studio footage and as much info as possible to those demos. Present them as interesting relics of their time with the necessary information to understand what they are, in order to better understand MJs way of being creative.
I will keep on passing the leaks (even if some seem super intriguing from people describing them) and hope that someday, there will be an estate willing to do high quality releases. I can understand anyone being frustrated with the current estate.

Thank you for your impressions! I feel quite similar, also concerning future releases. And I would still wish the leaked songs to be published officially. I also don't want us fans to be represented in a way that we are thiefs and do anything to hear unreleased music. Brad's seminars are such a gift and he creates an atmosphere where Michael is somehow there with us and like I'd written above, I'd rather have this experience once or twice than consuming everything like mass products. How can I enjoy a recording of Michael if I know in what way this recording was introduced to us? By betraying the trust of someone who worked closely with Michael and - let's be clear: Michael was a genius, but his music wouldn't be the same without his team and Brad's a part of that. It was disrespectful and now there will always be some kind of mistrust or caution in future seminars...

Think about the Speed Demon video. Everywhere there are those paparazzi, fans, like zombies almost, trying to get a glimpse of Michael, not having any care for privacy and respect. I don't want any part in this and I wish for us to be a respectful and decent fan community - like Michael was.

Concerning the estate: It would be so cool to have an institution that communicates with us regularly and shows us they understand how deep the meaning of Michael and his work is to us. I.e. if they would wish us happy holidays in December and maybe publish a short unreleased video showing Michael recording or talking about something. That would mean so much to me. Or to Michael's birthday we could do a worldwide charity thing. Everyone who can donates something and the estates gives it to a children's hospital on every continent in Michael's name. It would be so Michael-like and it would bring us together as a fan community (we are still there!) and it would bring Michael back to the muggle's minds out there. We are so many people of all generations and on all continents. We could really make a difference and keep on Michael's legacy if there would be a little leadership by the estate. So that is a shame really. And the biggest symbol of that is the official MJ shop. Those really badly designed and overpriced outfits are really undignified. Everyone could do it better on spreadshirt by themselves. As a woman I would like to wear something decent with MJ symbols or something on it. But the shirts and everything there looks like from a garage sell in the 90's. You can't have such a shop with a universe artist like MJ. I don't know why they are not working with some fans who are talented in design, they would create great work, I am sure.

Sorry, I don't want to shift the topic to the estate. It's just that their behavior has to do with the leaks as well.

 

[Sarah_MJ]

Yes. Well, I'm not big fan of leaks, of course they are beautiful but they're clearly unfinished. I feel it's not right. Should never forget that Michael had very strong opinions about his unfinished work. What was not finished should not be released. I have been fan from -80's. He was my childhood, teenage years and adulthood too. Well, it's 17 years this year but i still, i'll never get over his death.

I also think the time span since Michael's death is not an argument in anything, especially when it comes to being respectful to him or others who worked with him.

 

[SmoothGangsta]

I always enjoy hearing MJ's unfinished work. He was a true artist and I think it's awesome to hear his work.

It's mainly the fact that his art is being hijacked by a bunch of attention seekers who use him for clout that makes me feel differently about leaks. Edited files and snippets galore. I had mostly stopped paying attention because of it until recently.

Remember What I Told You is a true highlight and like others have said is the first time in a while that I've felt amazed in a way that MJ's work used to make me feel.

 

[someplace_else]

It was disrespectful and now there will always be some kind of mistrust or caution in future seminars...

Yep, that's why there are no phones allowed in there anymore. But still I am grateful that he keeps going. He also could have said fu, if it's not appreciated, I am done .

Think about the Speed Demon video. Everywhere there are those paparazzi, fans, like zombies almost, trying to get a glimpse of Michael, not having any care for privacy and respect. I don't want any part in this and I wish for us to be a respectful and decent fan community - like Michael was.

Concerning the estate: It would be so cool to have an institution that communicates with us regularly and shows us they understand how deep the meaning of Michael and his work is to us. I.e. if they would wish us happy holidays in December and maybe publish a short unreleased video showing Michael recording or talking about something. That would mean so much to me. Or to Michael's birthday we could do a worldwide charity thing. Everyone who can donates something and the estates gives it to a children's hospital on every continent in Michael's name. It would be so Michael-like and it would bring us together as a fan community (we are still there!) and it would bring Michael back to the muggle's minds out there. We are so many people of all generations and on all continents. We could really make a difference and keep on Michael's legacy if there would be a little leadership by the estate. So that is a shame really. And the biggest symbol of that is the official MJ shop. Those really badly designed and overpriced outfits are really undignified. Everyone could do it better on spreadshirt by themselves. As a woman I would like to wear something decent with MJ symbols or something on it. But the shirts and everything there looks like from a garage sell in the 90's. You can't have such a shop with a universe artist like MJ. I don't know why they are not working with some fans who are talented in design, they would create great work, I am sure.

Sorry, I don't want to shift the topic to the estate. It's just that their behavior has to do with the leaks as well.

Oh yeah, the shop, the Insta page with the low quality posts, etc. pp. - there would be so many fans willing to do everything for free, so I really don't understand...they could just make a contest to design clothes or whatever.

I also like the idea to make charity events, I mentioned that some time ago here in the forum. Complaining isn't helpful with the Estate, we have to act ourselves, that's for sure. But yeah, also a different topic...

 

[kai]

Don’t hate me but:

MJ probably would’ve rather had the fans hear the leaks than see a group of old white men (he fired before his passing) profit from releasing them.

I mean we can’t know… but the way we know MJ I am pretty sure he rather wants his fans to get free access than these people remixing his work and getting tons of money from it…

Both (leaks and releases) are morally questionable.