New Fan and Thoroughly Addicted to Everything About This Man!

filmandmusic

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We might not realize it today but the brothers were hugely popular on their own as well. They get massive cheers too on stage during the J5 days. Jermaine also scored a couple of solo hits during the early 70s and he would score big time in the early 80s.
Michael and Marlon were the cute kids but the teenage fans got the hots for the Jermaine, Tito and Jackie as they were teenagers themselves. So I guess early on the cheers were as good as equal for each member.
 

zinniabooklover

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We might not realize it today but the brothers were hugely popular on their own as well.
Oh, we did realise it back in the day. We definitely got it. What I'm wrestling with is my own memories of how I viewed J5 and realising my recent statements around this haven't been as accurate as I thought. I'm really enjoying reclaiming my memories of how much I enjoyed J5 (and Jacksons) as a group rather than just as a convenient backdrop to Michael. Not to take anything away from Michael, of course. But I did love the group for themselves and the brothers were awesome in their own right.

I say awesome. J5 and Jacksons were quite lightweight compared to lots of bands I was into. They weren't P-Funk and no-one expected them to be, obvs. But they were really good in their particular place in the pop sphere and I'm kind of astonished that I had forgotten that. It feels really nice to get that back.

They get massive cheers too on stage during the J5 days. Jermaine also scored a couple of solo hits during the early 70s and he would score big time in the early 80s.
Michael and Marlon were the cute kids but the teenage fans got the hots for the Jermaine, Tito and Jackie as they were teenagers themselves. So I guess early on the cheers were as good as equal for each member.
Exactly. There was someone for everyone. Mine were Jackie and Michael. Michael was my age so he was like a brother. Jackie had a cute face and a cool voice.
 

zinniabooklover

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Interesting quote from Daniel Levitin:

"Safety plays a role for a lot of us in choosing music. To a certain extent, we surrender to music when we listen to it - we allow ourselves to trust the composers and musicians with a part of our hearts and our spirits; we let the music take us somewhere outside of ourselves. Many of us feel that great music connects us to something larger than our own existence, to other people, or to God. Even when music doesn't transport us to an emotional place that is transcendent, music can change our mood. We might be understandably reluctant, then, to let down our guard, to drop our emotional defenses, for just anyone. We will do so if the musicians and composer make us feel safe." (P.242 - 243)

Daniel Levitin - This is Your Brain on Music: understanding a human obsession.

I don't know how this links to my rock bands. I need to think about this some more but I can see how it links to Michael. 🤔
 

staywild23

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Interesting quote from Daniel Levitin:

"Safety plays a role for a lot of us in choosing music. To a certain extent, we surrender to music when we listen to it - we allow ourselves to trust the composers and musicians with a part of our hearts and our spirits; we let the music take us somewhere outside of ourselves. Many of us feel that great music connects us to something larger than our own existence, to other people, or to God. Even when music doesn't transport us to an emotional place that is transcendent, music can change our mood. We might be understandably reluctant, then, to let down our guard, to drop our emotional defenses, for just anyone. We will do so if the musicians and composer make us feel safe." (P.242 - 243)

Daniel Levitin - This is Your Brain on Music: understanding a human obsession.

I don't know how this links to my rock bands. I need to think about this some more but I can see how it links to Michael. 🤔

Wow, this is fascinating! I know we have touched on this before (which is probably why you thought to put this quote in this thread) but Michael absolutely makes me feel safe. Just thinking about him as a human being makes me feel safe and warm inside. But with his music, it's an extension of that. There has always been music I enjoy that actively makes me feel a little uncomfortable, or scared, but that has never been the case with Michael. I think about how he said in some interviews how he couldn't pinpoint why people love his music, but that he knows it comes from his heart, and everything he does comes from the heart. And that to me translates through his work and I believe it's why his music makes me feel so safe, warm, and loved. he had a beautiful heart and made beautiful music as a result.

I do think what's interesting about this quote, however, is this idea that people may not be willing to drop their emotional defenses for music, or might be reluctant to let their guard down. I have often felt that the people who don't really "get" Michael may feel this way lol. I mean, I hate to say that there is any artist that should universally loved because taste is subjective. But if there were ever an artist I think truly does have mass universal appeal, to the point that i would think someone was being intentionally dense to not like their music, it would be Michael lol. I really feel that the reason I am so obsessed with and connected to Michael and his music right now is because I am emotionally open to it. I hope that makes sense.

Anyway, this is all to say that I appreciate you sharing this quote... definitely interesting stuff to think about! :)
 

zinniabooklover

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Wow, this is fascinating! I know we have touched on this before (which is probably why you thought to put this quote in this thread) but Michael absolutely makes me feel safe. Just thinking about him as a human being makes me feel safe and warm inside. But with his music, it's an extension of that. There has always been music I enjoy that actively makes me feel a little uncomfortable, or scared, but that has never been the case with Michael. I think about how he said in some interviews how he couldn't pinpoint why people love his music, but that he knows it comes from his heart, and everything he does comes from the heart. And that to me translates through his work and I believe it's why his music makes me feel so safe, warm, and loved. he had a beautiful heart and made beautiful music as a result.
Ngl, I did think of you. I thought of my rock bands first. I was like, 'huh?' Alice Cooper on TOTP wielding his sword (not a euphemism), I don't know if that was about feeling safe. And Ozzy and the Sabs? Jimi Hendrix? Er, no way. But I probably need to think about all of that some more. Then I thought of Michael and it made loads more sense.

And you could have written that paragraph. It's such a match for things you have written here on the board. And I think I've said that I was surprised by your reactions to Michael. That feeling of safety he gives you. And it's not that I didn't understand the points you were making but this paragraph helped me to understand it much more clearly. It was a bit of a lightbulb moment. It *does* make sense.

Don't get me wrong. I understand everything in this paragraph but the bit about safety is the specific bit I have to think about cos I only came across this notion when you wrote about it here. And I thought that was great but it didn't really seem to apply to me. But now, reading this, I'm seeing it kind of does. Certainly in regard to Michael.

I do think what's interesting about this quote, however, is this idea that people may not be willing to drop their emotional defenses for music, or might be reluctant to let their guard down. I have often felt that the people who don't really "get" Michael may feel this way lol.
That's interesting. I never thought of that. I certainly haven't completely dropped my guard with Michael re Manhood. Hiker just touched on this yesterday and I commented that I still experience that resistance now and again. Which I'm fine with. But I don't feel guarded when it comes to his music but I can imagine maybe some people do - although maybe they don't realise it.

I mean, I hate to say that there is any artist that should universally loved because taste is subjective. But if there were ever an artist I think truly does have mass universal appeal, to the point that i would think someone was being intentionally dense to not like their music, it would be Michael lol.
Mm, well, that is a STRONG statement. Gosh! I think I'll leave that one simmering away on the back burner, lol.

I really feel that the reason I am so obsessed with and connected to Michael and his music right now is because I am emotionally open to it. I hope that makes sense.
It does make sense. I think for me it's the same but it was the dancing even more than the music, perhaps, that forged that sense of connection. Everything blew up in 1983 and I think that's why. Beat It and Motown 25, there was no going back after that.

Anyway, this is all to say that I appreciate you sharing this quote... definitely interesting stuff to think about! :)
I'm glad you liked it. It does seem tailor made for you, lol. And I definitely am going to be wrestling with it for a while yet.
 

zinniabooklover

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tumblr_lfegbaZArx1qd37nbo1_500.gif


Well, this is a nice bit of sychronicity (sp?). Just found this.
 

Hiker

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Safety in Michael's music, interesting concept. I definitely feel that. When I am having tough time, I feel like I need to listen to his voice and it will be ok. Except maybe the Thriller video :rolleyes: I see myself going more towards invincible album and other songs rather than the big 5 albums

That's interesting. I never thought of that. I certainly haven't completely dropped my guard with Michael re Manhood. Hiker just touched on this yesterday and I commented that I still experience that resistance now and again. Which I'm fine with. But I don't feel guarded when it comes to his music but I can imagine maybe some people do - although maybe they don't realise it.
That's the interesting part, my resistance towards the whole manhood thread is history ;) (in case it was not obvious). That is something I gained from knowing Michael, or maybe from this forum and you guys, allow myself to feel what I am feeling. I was able to take it elsewhere in my life too. It just feels like he did some magic!

It does make sense. I think for me it's the same but it was the dancing even more than the music, perhaps, that forged that sense of connection. Everything blew up in 1983 and I think that's why. Beat It and Motown 25, there was no going back after that.
Dancing for me too, but the later eras, needless to mention Dangerous.
 

zinniabooklover

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Safety in Michael's music, interesting concept. I definitely feel that. When I am having tough time, I feel like I need to listen to his voice and it will be ok. Except maybe the Thriller video :rolleyes: I see myself going more towards invincible album and other songs rather than the big 5 albums
I definitely do this. And, yes, when things are tough it's Don't Walk Away rather than Is It Scary. Doesn't matter that Don't Walk Away is a sad song. I'm keying in to his voice rather than the lyrics. Lots of Invincible, for sure. Also lots of 1970's Michael.

That's the interesting part, my resistance towards the whole manhood thread is history ;) (in case it was not obvious). That is something I gained from knowing Michael, or maybe from this forum and you guys, allow myself to feel what I am feeling. I was able to take it elsewhere in my life too. It just feels like he did some magic!
I blatantly use sw23 as a measure in all things Manhood. I imagine her kind of like this:

tumblr_inline_mwyf8rUJEL1s124du.gif


I'm not quite there, yet. :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
 

staywild23

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And you could have written that paragraph. It's such a match for things you have written here on the board. And I think I've said that I was surprised by your reactions to Michael. That feeling of safety he gives you. And it's not that I didn't understand the points you were making but this paragraph helped me to understand it much more clearly. It was a bit of a lightbulb moment. It *does* make sense.
Tbh, I'm not sure I've ever felt "safe" with any other performer, or their music. This seems like a uniquely Michael thing. I've had music make me feel warm inside, along with basically every other possibly human emotion. But the feeling of safety I get with Michael is consistently there, no matter if I listen to his darkest, most pained music, or his happiest music. I think it stems from him. It's an overwhelming sense of warmth and love and it (feels like it) goes both ways. That's the part that feels a little crazy to say lol.


Don't get me wrong. I understand everything in this paragraph but the bit about safety is the specific bit I have to think about cos I only came across this notion when you wrote about it here. And I thought that was great but it didn't really seem to apply to me. But now, reading this, I'm seeing it kind of does. Certainly in regard to Michael.
haha I am so glad I was able to write something that registered as meaningful, or interesting enough that it stuck with you like this lol. Today I'm in a weird headspace and I feel like I contribute nothing to this board but vaguely incoherent ramblings. Though I do stand by that statement about safety and it makes me smile that you are starting to understand it too :)


That's interesting. I never thought of that. I certainly haven't completely dropped my guard with Michael re Manhood. Hiker just touched on this yesterday and I commented that I still experience that resistance now and again. Which I'm fine with. But I don't feel guarded when it comes to his music but I can imagine maybe some people do - although maybe they don't realise it.
Oh that I meant about dropping guard was more like being emotionally open to being affected by music. Granted, not everyone connects to the same art forms the same way. But music, for many people, triggers a lot of emotion so if someone is uncomfortable with feeling a lot of emotion, they may be guarded against music that will make them feel. I had a conversation about this with my brother recently. I was telling him how this current pop star, to me, has a soulless voice and means nothing to me. And he straight up told me he doesn't like music that makes him feel anything. He doesn't listen to music to feel, he just wants it as background entertainment. That blows my mind lol.

Also, I think feeling still a little on edge with the manhood stuff is completely understandable. That's a whole other arena of interest!

Mm, well, that is a STRONG statement. Gosh! I think I'll leave that one simmering away on the back burner, lol.
LMAO that is completely ok. Tbf I was being somewhat intentionally inflammatory with that statement. Totally ok for you to disagree with me on it and totally ok to leave it on the back burner, as you said :)
 

staywild23

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I blatantly use sw23 as a measure in all things Manhood. I imagine her kind of like this:

tumblr_inline_mwyf8rUJEL1s124du.gif


I'm not quite there, yet. :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣

This is the truest possible depiction of me. If a gif could be a portrait, this would be it.

When it comes to Michael I am permanently that woman 24/7/365
 

zinniabooklover

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JUNE 26 2009

SHINEDOWN RELEASES STATEMENT ON MICHAEL JACKSON
By Zach Myers

. . . Sitting in a dressing room in Calgary Canada I am more saddened than I can remember in maybe the last 5 years
Call they guy whatever you want. . judge his actions, judge his judgments, and judge the man any way in any language you want
But. Michael Jackson was the best
There was no one better
There never will be anyone better. . People dont try anymore. .
You can take any pretty loser who cant sing who has a good smile and sells records and make him a star
Just look at ANYONE on the charts today
Today we lost a part of music history, a legend, and the greatest pop music artist there ever will be.
The things Michael created on Thriller, Off the Wall, and Bad will never be matched.
By anyone ever.
Michael Jackson was the best.
People believed in Michael Jackson who didnt believe in Jesus
And that my friends is a legend.
God Bless Michael Jacksons music , his soul , and his legend .
That can never be replaced.
Rest in Peace Sir
God bless your soul.
Zach Myers & Shinedown

I'm posting this here (hope that's OK) because Thriller is now at No. 5 in a Billboard chart just two places down from the new album by the rock band Shinedown. I probably should note that I haven't spent any time trying to find out if they released a subsequent statement in the wake of the 2019 tv programme. But I think this is a lovely statement and I'm going to take it as it stands. Zach Myers is the guitarist in the band. I don't know much about Shinedown. But I like this statement.
 
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staywild23

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JUNE 26 2009

SHINEDOWN RELEASES STATEMENT ON MICHAEL JACKSON
By Zach Myers

. . . Sitting in a dressing room in Calgary Canada I am more saddened than I can remember in maybe the last 5 years
Call they guy whatever you want. . judge his actions, judge his judgments, and judge the man any way in any language you want
But. Michael Jackson was the best
There was no one better
There never will be anyone better. . People dont try anymore. .
You can take any pretty loser who cant sing who has a good smile and sells records and make him a star
Just look at ANYONE on the charts today
Today we lost a part of music history, a legend, and the greatest pop music artist there ever will be.
The things Michael created on Thriller, Off the Wall, and Bad will never be matched.
By anyone ever.
Michael Jackson was the best.
People believed in Michael Jackson who didnt believe in Jesus
And that my friends is a legend.
God Bless Michael Jacksons music , his soul , and his legend .
That can never be replaced.
Rest in Peace Sir
God bless your soul.
Zach Myers & Shinedown

I'm posting this here (hope that's OK) because Thriller is now at No. 5 in a Billboard chart just two places down from the new album by the rock band Shinedown. I probably should note that I haven't spent any time trying to find out if they released a subsequent statement in the wake of the 2019 tv programme. But I think this is a lovely statement and I'm going to take it as it stands. Zach Myers is the guitarist in the band. I don't know much about Shinedown. But I like this statement.
"People believed in Michael Jackson who didnt believe in Jesus
And that my friends is a legend."

Wow. That's really something. I am by no means a fan of Chance the Rapper (I know basically nothing about him) but I have heard a lyric when he says something like "back when Mike Jackson was still Jesus" and it reminds me of this. I think that is definitely true and maybe in a different way than I can understand it, but I definitely get what this is saying.

Thank you for sharing this! Really amazing stuff.
 

zinniabooklover

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I'm dipping in and out of a book by Anne Lamott - 'bird by bird: some instructions on writing and life'.

And she's quoting a poem by Wendell Berry and I really like this bit:

"Suddenly you flare in my sight,
a wild rose blooming at the edge
of thicket, grace and light
where yesterday was only shade,

and once again I am blessed, choosing
again what I chose before."

(Anne Lamott, P.xxvii)

He wrote that for his wife but it makes me think of Michael and most especially of my different phases with Michael. I chose him before and now I'm choosing him all over again, iyswim.

The 'grace and light' bit is very Michael, that whole verse is so relevant to how I feel about him. But it's the second bit, the last two lines that I most love.
 

zinniabooklover

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@Hiker @staywild23 @MacMandy90

Peeps, bit of a nosy question, maybe. Just wondering what you all think about when it comes to Michael (oi, sw23! stop sniggering at the back, there!).

No, but seriously. I have this thought in my head and I can't work out if it's a Michael thing. It does seem to be. And the thought is that Michael seems to get me thinking about stuff in a way my other peeps don't. See here, for example, that Wendell Berry poem I posted. I really like poetry and I do engage with it (not nearly enough, I'm very lazy) but it isn't something that I pursue if I'm thinking about Faith No More, for example. Maybe if it's Bob Dylan but not my pop or rock peeps.

Last night I was having loads of fun with my identity as a street witch (always there but newly labelled by sw23). I found my warrior call ('Ieya' by Toyah) and then had the idea that sometimes I will carry a Medusa head, as in, my hair will be a load of snakes as opposed to my actual hair. Don't worry, I'm not gonna turn people to stone, I have other plans! But that's not the point - the point is I got started thinking about snakes cos Michael says they have different personalities which I find fascinating. I never would think of snakes (lizards, basically) as having a personality at all. But he claims they do. And that is what got me thinking about them and then from there to my Medusa thoughts.

I'm not really getting to the point, am I? I think what I'm trying to say is, I have all of these thoughts just in the normal run of my life. The stuff that interests me will naturally pop into my head. But I also feel that my thoughts turn in certain directions because of something Michael said or just some way that he triggers my mind to go in certain directions. Is that making sense? I still feel like I haven't explained myself.

Ach, that's what happens when you don't get enough sleep.

As you were! :D
 
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staywild23

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First of all, I love this. These are the kind of posts that belong in this thread! Where else do you even put thoughts like this? I'm so glad we have this space to fall back on when we need to explore these kinds of feelings...
@Hiker @staywild23 @MacMandy90

Peeps, bit of a nosy question, maybe. Just wondering what you all think about when it comes to Michael (oi, sw23! stop sniggering at the back, there!).

LMAO I said nothing!! But the true answer to this question would scorch this entire forum into the ground and I wouldn't do that to Gaz, or any of you lol.

No, but seriously. I have this thought in my head and I can't work out if it's a Michael thing. It does seem to be. And the thought is that Michael seems to get me thinking about stuff in a way my other peeps don't. See here, for example, that Wendell Berry poem I posted. I really like poetry and I do engage with it (not nearly enough, I'm very lazy) but it isn't something that I pursue if I'm thinking about Faith No More, for example. Maybe if it's Bob Dylan but not my pop or rock peeps.
1) with how much you read, listen to, explore, learn about.... you are definitely not someone I would ever consider lazy. Just saying.

2) YUP. Bob Dylan and Michael...the only people that do this to me. Period.

Last night I was having loads of fun with my identity as a street witch (always there but newly labelled by sw23). I found my warrior call ('Ieya' by Toyah) and then had the idea that sometimes I will carry a Medusa head, as in, my hair will be a load of snakes as opposed to my actual hair. Don't worry, I'm not gonna turn people to stone, I have other plans!
😂 😂 😂

But that's not the point - the point is I got started thinking about snakes cos Michael says they have different personalities which I find fascinating. I never would think of snakes (lizards, basically) as having a personality at all. But he claims they do. And that is what got me thinking about them and then from there to my Medusa thoughts.

I'm not really getting to the point, am I? I think what I'm trying to say is, I have all of these thoughts just in the normal run of my life. The stuff that interests me will naturally pop into my head. But I also feel that my thoughts turn in certain directions because of something Michael said or just some way that he triggers my mind to go in certain directions. Is that making sense? I still feel like I haven't explained myself.

This totally make sense to me...

At this point, Michael is basically in my head 24/7. I relate so many of my thoughts back to him, in some way. Funny you mention snakes. The other night I went to trivia night at this bar with a group of friends. I kept hoping to God they would have trivia related to Michael (they didn't). Anyway, as I was sitting there fully participating in the trivia night, my mind was scrambling through random facts about Michael just in case, and the first thing that came to mind was the names of Michael's snakes, Rosie the Crusher and Muscles (he may have had others but I don't recall). I came home and told my husband about this and he was like 'what is wrong with you?' lol Anyway, not exactly an example of what you're referring to here, but I just found it funny.

I would say more than anything, Michael just enters my mind all the time. There are certainly associations that come up like you described, but often I just find myself wondering what he thought of a particular thing, or what a certain experience was like for him. I imagine him waking up in the morning and having to get himself pumped up for something he didn't want to do... just curiosity about his daily lived moments. I imagine what mental space he must have entered when he performed, or recorded, vs. the person he was otherwise. I mean... I will stop here because the list will go on for the rest of my life and, again, not exactly what you're referring to either.

I guess I can't think of a specific example of what you are referring to, though I know it happens to me all the time. I will say, I think Michael has impacted me very profoundly (duh) in part because I feel, very strongly, like he and I are kindred spirits. I imagine a lot of his fans, and those who enjoy him, would say the same thing. But I feel this resonance deep down in my bones. I think this is why my obsession with Michael has surpassed my obsession with Bob Dylan.

Granted, I was at my peak Dylan obsession in my early 20s and I'm in my early 30s now, so it's been awhile since I was maniacal about him, therefore I may not be remembering how crazy I was accurately. But with Dylan, I was always such an intense admirer of his work. I was fascinated because I wanted to understand his brain, his process. He awakened my intellect, while gutting me emotionally. He also just wrecked me from a writing standpoint and made me want to explore language in a different way. There are lyrics of his that make me fucking scream. Just SCREAM because the language is so incredible I can't contain it in my body... BUT... though I had a bit of a crush on him, I mostly saw Dylan as this monolith of talent who was complex, private, and kind of intimidating on a personal level. Like, he is for sure one of two celebrities I would want to meet if I could (take a guess at the other one, haha) but I would be terrified to meet him because as much as I love him, I don't feel safe with him. I also don't feel like he would understand me, or care to in the slightest lol. I think we are fundamentally very, very different people.

With Michael, though, I feel like Michael represents everything I am in my purest self, and everything I value in my heart. I feel like we are the same kind of person and like his transparency about his feelings, his intensity, his care about about things, just everything he was, gives me permission to love those things about myself more. Like, I am for certain a deeply flawed human, as we all are. But for years I resented some of the qualities I share with Michael because I was embarrassed, or tired of being taken advantage of, or just kind of like too sensitive for the world, you know? But Michael...sigh...Michael is just so pure and yet so wise. He marries the best qualities, IMO. Anyway, there is this emotional element where I just feel in my heart that he represents my particular brand of humanity, and it makes me trust him, and love him, and want to deeply know him as much as possible on a human level. Then when you add that his actual music and artistry is electrifying, holy shit. His music and his voice just reaches into my core and wrings out all that is there. Idk how to talk about this lol. I just feel like with Michael I (somehow) feel safe and loved and valued as an individual and the connection feels (somehow) mutual. That is the magic of him I guess. I don't understand. I don't know.

Man, this was a rambling mess. I am sorry. You asked though! I'm not sure I answered the question effectively, but this was my attempt lol.
 

zinniabooklover

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First of all, I love this. These are the kind of posts that belong in this thread! Where else do you even put thoughts like this? I'm so glad we have this space to fall back on when we need to explore these kinds of feelings...
You did a good thing when you created this thread. It is so useful.

At this point, Michael is basically in my head 24/7. I relate so many of my thoughts back to him, in some way. Funny you mention snakes. The other night I went to trivia night at this bar with a group of friends. I kept hoping to God they would have trivia related to Michael (they didn't). Anyway, as I was sitting there fully participating in the trivia night, my mind was scrambling through random facts about Michael just in case, and the first thing that came to mind was the names of Michael's snakes, Rosie the Crusher and Muscles (he may have had others but I don't recall). I came home and told my husband about this and he was like 'what is wrong with you?' lol
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

I would say more than anything, Michael just enters my mind all the time.
This is what I'm getting at. I even have a couple of examples now. I've mentioned this whole thing before on the board but it was yonks ago. Anyway, I have a folder of stuff that I want to read again before I ditch it. Random stuff, nothing to do with music, necessarily. I could be reading an interview with a politician, a book review, a feature on the financial troubles of a supermarket chain - and there will be a point where something in the item makes me think of Michael. It happens constantly.

These aren't the best examples but it's getting hot again over here so I'm now very lethargic again. Don't have the energy to go digging for something better.

Anyway. First up, a feature re a tv series where various people get to nominate things which have inspired them. Amanda Levete is an architect and she nominates the Tulip Stairs designed by Inigo Jones. She says:

"When you talk about a stair, you often talk about a 'flight of stairs' - there's always something uplifting about the idea of ascent spiritually and these stairs in the Queen's House in Greenwich capture that brilliantly. A real 'stairway to heaven' ". (The Times 02 April 2022)

And as soon as I read that back in April I thought about Michael performing Will You Be There. I'm not hugely keen on the staging of this song but the version I'm posting here, I do like his physical performance. And the bit that really gets me is when he starts moving up the stairs. I always think if water could flow upwards it might look like this. And not only does he look like flowing water to me, as he moves upwards, but it also feels very spiritual. Which was the trigger in that quote from Amanda Levete.



Next example. Review of an art exhibition all about surrealism. And Laura Cumming, the art critic, says this:

"Eighty years of art are condensed ... into a sequence of galleries that dramatise the transit of this comet right across the globe ... "
(The Observer 27 February 2022)

And as soon as I read that I thought of Michael, a beautiful, mysterious phenomenon blazing across the sky, lighting up the whole world.

I guess I can't think of a specific example of what you are referring to, though I know it happens to me all the time. I will say, I think Michael has impacted me very profoundly (duh) in part because I feel, very strongly, like he and I are kindred spirits. I imagine a lot of his fans, and those who enjoy him, would say the same thing. But I feel this resonance deep down in my bones. I think this is why my obsession with Michael has surpassed my obsession with Bob Dylan.
Same. It's a very strong feeling.

Man, this was a rambling mess. I am sorry. You asked though! I'm not sure I answered the question effectively, but this was my attempt lol.
It's hard to pin this down, though, isn't it? It makes sense in my head but when I bring it out into the world it's all over the place.

P.S. Have just realised this post seems to be talking about the complete opposite thing that my earlier post was talking about. In that one I was saying Michael takes my thoughts in various unexpected directions. In this one I'm talking about how Michael pops into my mind no matter what I'm reading or thinking about.

It would be quicker and easier if I just said, 'Michael mashes up my brain' and left it at that, lol.
 
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zinniabooklover

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"JACKSON: Always did. I always enjoyed the feeling of being on stage—the magic that comes. When I hit the stage it’s like all of a sudden a magic from somewhere just comes and the spirit just hits you and you just lose control of yourself. I came on stage at Quincy’s [Jones] concert at the Rose Bowl and I did not want to go on stage. I was ducking and hiding and hoping he wouldn’t see me hiding behind people when he called me on. Then I went up there and I just went crazy. I started climbing up the scaffold, the speakers, the light gear. The audience started getting into it and I started dancing and singing and that’s what happens."

"JACKSON: I love to draw—pencil, ink pen—I love art. When I go on tour and visit museums in Holland, Germany or England—you know those huge paintings?—I’m just amazed. You don’t think a painter could do something like that. I can look at a piece of sculpture or a painting and totally lose myself in it. Standing there watching it and becoming part of the scene. It can draw tears, it can touch you so much. See, that’s where I think the actor or performer should be—to touch that truth inside of the person. Touch that reality so much that they become a part of what you’re doing and you can take them anywhere you want to. You’re happy, they’re happy. Whatever the human emotions, they’re right there with you. I love realism. I don’t like plastics. Deep down inside we’re all the same. We all have the same emotions and that’s why a film like E.T. touches everybody. Who doesn’t want to fly like Peter Pan? Who doesn’t want to fly with some magic creature from outer space and be friends with him? Steven went straight to the heart. He knows—when in doubt, go for the heart . . ."

2 quotes from Michael's interview with Andy Warhol's 'Interview' magazine, October 1982 - editor Bob Colacello did the interview.

I love these two quotes but they didn't seem to fit in the Fave Quotes thread so I've put them here.
 

Hiker

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Good question, when it comes to Michael, I think about a LOT. (ok, yes, stop sniggering, I will leave the dirty thoughts out of here. I think about other things too.) I am not going to be able to put it all in one post, but let me try.

The most I think about Michael is related to his perfection. I worship that perfection and his authenticity to his work. That's how I am and want to be in real life. I also think about how many people who worked directly with him said he had a way of bringing the best out of them, how he challenged them to do better and they did it. That kind of thing can happen only when you keep high standards for yourself. Then his humility. People who worked with him often state how humble he was, how nice to his band and everyone else, despite of his fame and success. Since Michael is in my head 24/7 now a days, whenever I see something done with perfection or I see myself doing something good, I always think, on Michael would be proud! How crazy is that!! Whenever I am struggling with that last 5% of making things perfect and others around me are like, 'its ok no one will notice, it does not matter', I think about how he would have felt spending all that energy over the last final details that mattered to no one else but him.

I guess I can't think of a specific example of what you are referring to, though I know it happens to me all the time. I will say, I think Michael has impacted me very profoundly (duh) in part because I feel, very strongly, like he and I are kindred spirits. I imagine a lot of his fans, and those who enjoy him, would say the same thing. But I feel this resonance deep down in my bones.
He has impacted my life too in a very unexpected way. But I don't know if we are same in spirit. He talked about being lonely growing up, not being able to connect with anyone though he came from a large family. I was total opposite, I literally had no one but I was not lonely growing up. I loved my own company, books, dancing etc. etc. I did not have lot of deep friendships but it did not bother me as a child, it was almost by design. Though it's totally different now. Now I have so many people around me, people I am responsible for, people who rely on me, at work, socially etc. etc., but I get very lonely. So I sort of understand and think about how he would have felt all his life, surrounded by people but not really being able to connect with anyone. Though that's another thing that started changing since Michael came into my life. Somehow more I hear about his loneliness, more I feel - that's not me, and more I am able to get over my loneliness and remind myself how I enjoyed just being myself as a child and doing everything by myself.

But I also feel that my thoughts turn in certain directions because of something Michael said or just some way that he triggers my mind to go in certain directions. Is that making sense? I still feel like I haven't explained myself.
Many times in certain situations some of the words of Michael's songs pop in my head that fit the situation, and then I start wondering if those were just words that fit the melody or he really meant them. Did he have similar experience when he wrote those words! In meditation / spiritual healing you often hear things like - 'let the thought come, acknowledge it and let it pass'. I never understood that before. But now when words of song pop up in my head, it feels like I am acknowledging those thoughts by remembering the song!! (No, I am not crazy though I am close to the line, I do know that many of the words were not written by him and most had nothing to do with his real life experience, but its good to indulge in the belief that he had a similar experience as mine in his life too)

I hope some of this made sense.
 

staywild23

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Though that's another thing that started changing since Michael came into my life. Somehow more I hear about his loneliness, more I feel - that's not me, and more I am able to get over my loneliness and remind myself how I enjoyed just being myself as a child and doing everything by myself.
This is really interesting to me. When I said we are kindred spirits, I didn't actually think about his loneliness as a part of that. However, now that you say it, I also relate deeply on that level too. Loneliness has swallowed me up many times in my life. More like isolation really, than loneliness. Either way though, I think his life experiences do put certain things in perspective like how you described. I so often wish I had discovered him at a different point in my life, because I really needed then what I am getting from him now. I think that's part of why I try to introduce him to basically everyone in my life.

Many times in certain situations some of the words of Michael's songs pop in my head that fit the situation, and then I start wondering if those were just words that fit the melody or he really meant them. Did he have similar experience when he wrote those words! In meditation / spiritual healing you often hear things like - 'let the thought come, acknowledge it and let it pass'. I never understood that before. But now when words of song pop up in my head, it feels like I am acknowledging those thoughts by remembering the song!! (No, I am not crazy though I am close to the line, I do know that many of the words were not written by him and most had nothing to do with his real life experience, but its good to indulge in the belief that he had a similar experience as mine in his life too)
hmmm... this is interesting.

I'm not sure which songs you are referring to, of course, but he did write a huge portion of his songs (as I'm sure you know.. I'm just including this as I think through your comments). I can't of course speak to Michael's process, but as a writer myself I do feel like all writing is autobiographical on some level. That's actually part of the writing theory I teach! 😆 Even writing that is pure fiction. It's all coming from some depth within myself. Sometimes it is obvious where it comes from, sometimes less so. But in everything I write I learn something about myself. There is something a lot of writers refer to as "emotional truth" vs. "literal truth." I think Michael's lyrics had a strong emotional truth, but were maybe not literally true. So the stories he would tell were not a mirror to his life, but the emotions came from somewhere very real, and perhaps in that way it mirrored his life. It's also possible as a musician that the lyrics told one story and the music itself told another. But he did also write poetry, so I don't see him being someone who thought of lyrics as not very important. I would imagine that even if he wrote a melody first and was looking for the lyrics to fit that melody, he would want the lyrics to match the emotion of the music. I think the mistake people make with interpreting lyrics just comes down to believing he was literally speaking of his actual lived experience, versus communicating his emotional experience, view of the world, etc. This is what I think we debated a bit in that "woman" thread from awhile ago. Literal references to streetwalkers/sex workers does not mean that was MJ's life, but what about that could have been emotionally resonant for him?

This said, even the songs he didn't write the lyrics for I would suggest contain an emotional truth for him. I don't think Michael would record songs he didn't feel connected to. He said many times how he produces music from his heart and that's the key for him. It has to come from his heart. Even when he was a little kid he had that interview where he said "I don't sing it if I don't mean it." That struck me as such a profound thing for a child to say, but I would bet it remained true.

Anyway, none of this is meant to be a debate about artistic inspiration and its meaning lol. I just love discussing this stuff because it's my area of study and greatest area of interest. I wish I could have long conversations with Michael about his process. Last night I rewatched some of the Mexico Deposition and I kept having all of these questions pop up that I was dying to ask him about. I would love to see him retroactively analyze his own work. Not discuss the process, even, but actually go back and try to look at his work and find the meaning in individual lines, images, phrases, etc. I do this with my own poetry. When I write something, it often feels like I have no idea where it comes from. It just pops into my head and I put it down. But I can *always* find the thread to my life afterward if I analyze it. Sometimes that thread is borderline meaningless. Other times it reveals something profound to me.

Sorry for such a long reply to this! Ultimately, my whole point is just to say that I think it's ok to take comfort in his lyrics resembling some element of your life. My life has almost nothing in common with Michael's, yet I feel such an emotional mirroring to him. I personally think it's safe to assume that with the broad, wide-ranging life he had, and all of the complex relationships he had, that his music does represent some of your own lived experiences, whether literally or just emotionally. And whatever comfort that brings you, you should indulge in it! It's the beauty of art :)
 

zinniabooklover

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audio for that Quincy Jones concert cameo

and a small snippet of video

Update - just a quick FYI in case anyone isn't familiar with what's going on here:

43m 7s - the legendary Ashford & Simpson get going with the awesome 'Stuff Like That'

46m 50s - you can hear Michael moving into lead vocal mode but he can be heard before this so I would def advise starting at the earlier time stamp.

The whole performance is so FUNKY. Even without any pictures you can just see all of them in your mind's eye just grooving away like crazy. This is gold.
 

staywild23

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"When you talk about a stair, you often talk about a 'flight of stairs' - there's always something uplifting about the idea of ascent spiritually and these stairs in the Queen's House in Greenwich capture that brilliantly. A real 'stairway to heaven' ". (The Times 02 April 2022)

And as soon as I read that back in April I thought about Michael performing Will You Be There. I'm not hugely keen on the staging of this song but the version I'm posting here, I do like his physical performance. And the bit that really gets me is when he starts moving up the stairs. I always think if water could flow upwards it might look like this. And not only does he look like flowing water to me, as he moves upwards, but it also feels very spiritual. Which was the trigger in that quote from Amanda Levete.

I love this! I love the quote you included and how that connected to this performance. This is why I love talking about all of this stuff almost ad nauseum because I never tire of it and I find I learn so much from other people's experience with Michael's art. Like, I never would have connected that quote to Michael, but now that you do I can't deny it and it's beautiful. It helps me appreciate that performance on a deeper level. You often do this when you share a quote from a book you are reading, or something, and relate it to Michael. It is great! I love it.

Next example. Review of an art exhibition all about surrealism. And Laura Cumming, the art critic, says this:

"Eighty years of art are condensed ... into a sequence of galleries that dramatise the transit of this comet right across the globe ... "
(The Observer 27 February 2022)

And as soon as I read that I thought of Michael, a beautiful, mysterious phenomenon blazing across the sky, lighting up the whole world.

This is beautiful and perfect 😭 😍
P.S. Have just realised this post seems to be talking about the complete opposite thing that my earlier post was talking about. In that one I was saying Michael takes my thoughts in various unexpected directions. In this one I'm talking about how Michael pops into my mind no matter what I'm reading or thinking about.
That's true! This one might better be summed up as "it all comes back to Michael" lol. Which is how I am feeling these days!

"JACKSON: Always did. I always enjoyed the feeling of being on stage—the magic that comes. When I hit the stage it’s like all of a sudden a magic from somewhere just comes and the spirit just hits you and you just lose control of yourself. I came on stage at Quincy’s [Jones] concert at the Rose Bowl and I did not want to go on stage. I was ducking and hiding and hoping he wouldn’t see me hiding behind people when he called me on.
I LOVE THIS. The other day I read somewhere...God, I can't remember where now... that when he would get called up on stage in a situation like this, it was such a confusing experience. On one hand, as he was in the audience he would dread it and hope it wouldn't happen because he was so shy and embarrassed. But then as he'd be walking up, the transition would start and he would become excited and would be dying to be up there. And then it would all change and he would become his performer self. This reminds me of that! i wish i knew where I read it.

Then I went up there and I just went crazy. I started climbing up the scaffold, the speakers, the light gear. The audience started getting into it and I started dancing and singing and that’s what happens."
I would do unspeakable things to see this footage...

"JACKSON: I love to draw—pencil, ink pen—I love art. When I go on tour and visit museums in Holland, Germany or England—you know those huge paintings?—I’m just amazed. You don’t think a painter could do something like that. I can look at a piece of sculpture or a painting and totally lose myself in it. Standing there watching it and becoming part of the scene. It can draw tears, it can touch you so much. See, that’s where I think the actor or performer should be—to touch that truth inside of the person. Touch that reality so much that they become a part of what you’re doing and you can take them anywhere you want to. You’re happy, they’re happy. Whatever the human emotions, they’re right there with you."
I fucking love this. I love everything about it. I feel all of this to my core. It is vibrating through me. God, I love this man lol.

I love realism. I don’t like plastics. Deep down inside we’re all the same. We all have the same emotions and that’s why a film like E.T. touches everybody. Who doesn’t want to fly like Peter Pan? Who doesn’t want to fly with some magic creature from outer space and be friends with him? Steven went straight to the heart. He knows—when in doubt, go for the heart . . ."
LOL I think I wrote something like this awhile ago in some post defending Michael's "eccentricities" by saying who DOESN'T want to hang out with a chimpanzee?? Who WOULDN'T want to build a giant amusement park in their backyard? All the things Michael did that people thought were crazy or weird are all things I relate to lol. I mean, I am even obsessed with human anatomy. In high school and college I used to carry around a stethoscope because I wanted to be able to listen to the inner workings of my body (my heart, stomach, joints, etc) at any given time because they reminded me of my aliveness. I also thought it was just incredibly cool lol. Everyone thought it was weird, of course, but my enthusiasm about doing it would sell them on it and then once people would try it themselves they would often ask to borrow it lol.

I know this is completely off the deep end in reference to the quote itself. I'm just saying I think that human beings often want and desire the same things, but people are labeled "eccentric" when they don't let shame or embarrassment get in the way of accessing those things.

2 quotes from Michael's interview with Andy Warhol's 'Interview' magazine, October 1982 - editor Bob Colacello did the interview.

I love these two quotes but they didn't seem to fit in the Fave Quotes thread so I've put them here.

I would legit die if the space time continuum would allow for Thriller-era Michael to be featured in one of Andy Warhol's factory videos. I have fantasized about this more than once. There is no way in hell Andy wouldn't have been obsessed with adult Michael if he were around in the mid-late 60s. I think Michael would have been afraid of that whole scene, though who knows lol. I WANT IT.


PS: Forgot to add -- I LOVE your signature photo 😍
 

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@filmandmusic Fabulous clips I absolutely love them! :love:

@zinniabooklover Dear your signature, I'm absolutely mesmerized by it...I could stare at him all day :ROFLMAO: definitely not denying that lol

First of all, I love this. These are the kind of posts that belong in this thread! Where else do you even put thoughts like this? I'm so glad we have this space to fall back on when we need to explore these kinds of feelings...

LMAO I said nothing!! But the true answer to this question would scorch this entire forum into the ground and I wouldn't do that to Gaz, or any of you lol.

At this point, Michael is basically in my head 24/7. I relate so many of my thoughts back to him, in some way.

I would say more than anything, Michael just enters my mind all the time.

Man, this was a rambling mess. I am sorry. You asked though! I'm not sure I answered the question effectively, but this was my attempt lol.
I absolutely agree with you on all this!

Hahaha the true answer will stay in the vault lol :ROFLMAO: *looks around, locks up with key* Secured lol!

Honestly, there is so much more that can or could be said about Michael, but mostly even with him on our minds 24/7, I just have those relatable thoughts and feelings, even with the point talking about kindered spirits, that does feel like it.

Haha rambling?! Girl you were excellent lol!
 

zinniabooklover

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Then his humility. People who worked with him often state how humble he was, how nice to his band and everyone else, despite of his fame and success.
This immediately made me think of one of my top fave Michael stories. It's a well known story but I can't resist quoting it here:

"There are few people in the world that can lay claim to performing with the late, great King Of Pop, but Batten is one of them and worked with him during some of the most difficult years of his career.Some of these moments were arguably his best, however, playing together throughout three tours and his iconic 1993 Super Bowl halftime show which was seen by over a billion viewers worldwide.

Though, it wasn't all plane sailing, with Batten recently recounting a story of seeing Michael Jackson hanging on for his life after a stage accident when the cameras weren't rolling.

The guitarist appeared as a guest on music podcast Appetite For Distortion in recent weeks, where she revealed that MJ danced with death.

“I remember we were at… the Dangerous tour rehearsals and they were working on something new. They call it the cherry picker where there was this big mechanical arm that would go out over the audience, and he’d be on top of them with this cape blowing in the wind" Batten recalled.

"[Michael] is out there with the arm and all of a sudden it throws him off. So, he’s hanging on to the bars and all the roadies are on their radios like ‘Oh, holy s**t, the boss is in trouble, bring the arm back in.'"

Thankfully he didn't suffer any serious damage and was unharmed from the incident. But the usually reserved, polite pop star felt he needed to stamp out any further mistakes.

Batten went on to say: "Eventually, he comes back on the stage, and he gets on the mic. And he goes, ‘You know, I don’t mean to pull rank, but this needs to be fixed.'"

"You know, somebody that hadn’t been in show business since they were five years old might have just said, ‘You’re fired! Ah, this is wrong!’ Never saw him lose his s**t in 10 years. He just wanted to put on a good show. And he wanted people to have a good time.”

Even though he could've faced serious injury, the legendary pop icon kept his composure and remained respectful to his crew.

It was an example of his humility, that other stars certainly didn't have in similar scenarios explained Batten ... "

(article by Thomas Curtis-Horsfall on Smooth Radio website, March 2022)

Since Michael is in my head 24/7 now a days, whenever I see something done with perfection or I see myself doing something good, I always think, on Michael would be proud! How crazy is that!!
I think it's beautiful. It's a lovely thought and makes complete sense.

Whenever I am struggling with that last 5% of making things perfect and others around me are like, 'its ok no one will notice, it does not matter', I think about how he would have felt spending all that energy over the last final details that mattered to no one else but him.
And yet that last 5% might have been the most important. It mattered to no-one else but him but maybe that was the part where the gold truly began to shine. How can we know? We're not inside the mind of a creative genius. We have to trust him, don't we? And I do.

I love the idea of you doing things your (perfectionist) way and not being deflected by other people; also the thought of you doing that and being inspired by Michael to keep on going down your own path. Wonderful.
 

Hiker

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But in everything I write I learn something about myself. There is something a lot of writers refer to as "emotional truth" vs. "literal truth." I think Michael's lyrics had a strong emotional truth, but were maybe not literally true.
That's interesting 🤔. Since I am not really a writer, I don't understand the difference. Though I agree with not being literal truth. And also that he would have to relate to the lyrics at some level to bring out that emotion in the voice.

This immediately made me think of one of my top fave Michael stories. It's a well known story but I can't resist quoting it here:
Yes I LOVE 💕 this account.
 

zinniabooklover

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I have two things to say:

1 - having a signature photo is a really bad idea cos I now spend insane amounts of time staring at my siggy. Even more than I already spend staring at MM90's siggy. I love my choice of photo but I'm not sure this was my best idea. It's got me hypnotised and that is great but there are things I need to crack on with, lol.

2 - still thinking about lyrics. So frustrated that we can't ever know enough of what Michael's thoughts were on all of this. I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't have had a lot to say about lyrics. I know there is a little bit in Moonwalk (IIRC) but I'm sure he had many more thoughts on all of this. My own thoughts are that there are as many ways to understand lyrics as there songs out there. But I would say that because I'm a person who has always believed that there are multiple ways to understand or interpret a lyric or song and that my version is as valid as that of the actual lyricist.

David Byrne talks about a big project where he had to write a load of lyrics for several pieces of existing music; this is what he had to say about it in his book, How Music Works:

"Writing words to fit an existing melody and meter ... is something anyone who writes in rhyme does naturally and intuitively ... I found that ... solving the puzzle of making words and phrases fit existing structures often resulted ... in words that have emotional consistency and sometimes even a narrative thread ..." (P.208)

I really like this bit, though:

"But at times words can be a dangerous addition to music - they can pin it down. Words imply that the music is about what the words say, literally, and nothing more. If done poorly, they can destroy the pleasant ambiguity that constitutes much of the reason we love music. That ambiguity allows listeners to psychologically tailor a song to suit their needs ... and situations ... " (P.208)

I recently read an interview with Mike Hadreas (aka Perfume Genius - whose music I have never listened to) and he said this:

"I thought about the vocals and the lyrics being part of the instrumentation instead of it being about storytelling ... It could be about whatever I wanted. I didn't have to make a pop song that was 'about' something." (the i newspaper, 17 June 2022)

This is something a lot of lyricists say. I can't remember if Michael said something similar in Moonwalk. I think he might have but I've only read the book once so I don't know the text really well. But, omg, the frustration is epic. I know I keep on repeating myself but it's just so hard. As an older artist looking back on his work I'm sure Michael would have had amazingly interesting things to say about his earlier work. He was clearly a reflective person, you can see that in Moonwalk and he was so young. Or, alternatively, talking to him about current songs he was working on could also be great, asking him to reflect on how or whether his lyrics had developed in any particular way.

Guess I should stop banging my head against a brick wall. Ain't gonna change anything!
 
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Hiker

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1 - having a signature photo is a really bad idea cos I now spend insane amounts of time staring at my siggy. Even more than I already spend staring at MM90's siggy. I love my choice of photo but I'm not sure this was my best idea. It's got me hypnotised and that is great but there are things I need to crack on with, lol.
Can't say its a bad idea, but I am not going to add one. I spend so much time staring at yours and @MacMandy90 signature. They are so beautiful! You chose really well !! They both give me instant smile :) I cannot match that!!
 
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