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I know about Mann / Vaccaro / Katherine Jackson. Because everything I said including contracts was filed in Howard Mann / Vaccaro lawsuit. It's not my fault youdon't know about it. And now that you know will you still make excuses for it.
everything aside , in one breath you say AEG made profit from Michael's death and in other one you claim AEG could have sued Murray for damages? It doesn't make sense to me.
'Some fans do the very same' - I don't understand that comment.
Bubs;3861574 said:I know this was directed at bouee, but really have reply to this. Will you have a look at plaintiffs opening statement?
Tygger;3864758 said:Bubs, many of Bouee’s posts discussed Phillips/Gongaware not remembering if the doctor was there to treat Michael’s sleep issues at length.
ivy;3865091 I felt it was Bouee's assumption that they knew or should have known sleep issues. I certainly don't remember any testimony that said "[B said:treat[/B] MJ's sleep issues".
Tygger;3865440 said:Interesting indeed.
Phillips said he remembers the meeting on June 20th lasted at least an hour. Dr. Murray and Phillips were sitting in one couch, MJ was in a bench and Ortega on another couch. In his deposition, Phillips said Ortega talked about MJ's physical and mental status. On the stand today, Phillips explained Ortega did very little talking in the meeting. "He addressed Michael coming to rehearsals." "I do not believe he talked about MJ's physical condition and mental state. Dr. Murray did most of the talking," Phillips testified.
...........
Without getting into details, Phillips said Ortega and Murray "were a little combative" at the meeting. Phillips said Murray reassured everyone that Jackson's health was fine. He said Jackson also assured them nothing was wrong with him. He said Murray told the group that Jackson may have had the flu, or some similar ailment. He said Jackson's health was discussed. Phillips said he couldn't recall whether Jackson's sleep issues were discussed. A portion of Randy Phillips' deposition was played in which he said sleep issues were discussed at the June 20, 2009 meeting.(AP)
.........
Phillips said lack of sleep was discussed in the June 20th meeting, but wasn't the main focus. Phillips said the reason of the meeting was to find out what happened in the night before, what was the issue and also MJ missing rehearsals.
ivy;3864816 said:AEG did not reject restitution , they could not even ask for it because they aren't beneficiary or next of kin for Michael.
I guess what Tygger was trying to say was "why did not AEG sue Murray for wrongful death?" which if successful would have allowed AEG to collect money from Murray and therefore make up for any money they might be liable to Jacksons.
(Note: the lawsuits were mentioned during motion to limine. AEG was talking about Jacksons not suing Murray but suing AEG, Estate not being a party and so on. It was at that time Judge commented about AEG not suing Murray. So it was a possible civil lawsuit, not restitution).
Why they did not do it is self explanatory. Well first of all such lawsuit would require them to claim some sort of employment relationship - which AEG have been refusing by saying "not signed not hired". Finally everyone knows their chances to collect something Murray was and is slim. So they have almost no motive to go through with such lawsuit - & now the statue of limitations has passed.
Everybody knows Murray's chance of paying any restitution or money judgment is slim but a judgment against him by Jacksons could have been used as a tool to unmotivate Murray to try to profit from Michael's death.
ivy;3865095 said:Mod note: Links or summaries from/ to other Michael Jackson websites about testimony / transcripts aren't allowed.
ivy;3854980 said:Mot note: Please do not copy tweets, testimony, summary etc from other fans or fan sites.
you can only do very brief summaries in your own words.
Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 7h
Ortega said he wanted Jackson to be evaluated by a professional, someone other than Murray.
Expand
Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 7h
After the break, Panish asked Ortega if he was concerned about Conrad Murray. Ortega said yes.
passy001;3866641 said:Trying to defend Murray for profiting off MJ to pay off his debts. It does not matter whether the money was paid directly or indirectly to his lawyer, he still benefits from MJ, the real victim and that is the bottom line. That money came from his direct EXPLOITATION of MJ. that is a FACT no matter how hard you want to spin this.
.
Ivy, I know only the details about Vaccaro’s deal that is posted in this thread and I admitted to that. With this knowledge, I still maintain he took advantage of every Jackson he had dealing with.
No law forces an outlet to pay the doctor directly. Last Tear, I am not ignoring your post about “book deals, etc.” I do not see any proof that they exist except in hopeful conversations here. I am only aware of his interviews and his documentary in which he was not directly paid. If he has other business ventures, please post so I can learn.
I understand what others are referring to regarding restitution and have maintained an opposite view because I have consistently posted scenarios where restitution would not allow the Jacksons to protect or control anything the doctor chooses for financial gain.
Simpson did keep the advance, correct? Would anyone here like to guess why? What is being ignored or maybe not remembered is that Simpson was NOT a convict at that time which allowed him those direct monies for the advance which he was allowed to keep. That is NOT the situation the doctor is in; he is a convict and monies will NOT be given directly to him. If anyone feels that was a successful example of the control granted through restitution that is your view, it is not mine.
After "TII" tour ended, MJ and Taj would make movies. "I think when TII ended, he would've shifted his focus to films primarily," Taj said.
I'm not a supporter of the Jacksons at all, but what AEG is saying in their opening statement, verdict forms, and their line of questionning is far worse to Michael than what the Jacksons are saying.
You refuse to accept there is this additional, simplistic method. It is rare indeed, which may explain why you are not being able to find it so you can speak to it or maybe silently accept it without posting the method is correct but, it does exist.
I'm not sure I understand : can we do brief summaries of what we see on other websites, or not anymore ?
Company ABC is a 5 star hotel. Mr Soandso is a very important client. Mr Soandso wants his room refurbished by Mr Jerk, because Mr Jerk knows exactly what mr Soandso likes, he has refurbished Mr Soandso's home before. Hotel ABC accepts, hires mr Jerk as an indep contractor (NOT employee). Unfortunaletaly while painting Mr Soandso's room, Mr Jerk starts a fire , that kills Mr Soandso and burns down a part of the hotel.
Mr Soandso's family does NOT sue hotel ABC.
Can't Hotel ABC sue mr Jerk for the damages (ie : burning down a part of the hotel) ?
It can apply to the situation since AEG suffered losses from TII being cancelled. What is the insurance (so the Estate since they paid and ar dealing with Lloyds now) influence on the situation, does Murray's conviction influence the situation as well ?
@Bouee It's nice to see you back.![]()
I am quite prepared for hearing an awful portrayal of Michael when AEG take over, and whilst it wont be okay, AEG are not related to Michael, it's one thing for them to say something but for me it's another thing entirely for a family member to do so.
Bouee, I know you and Ivy have knocked heads but I think you are unfair to post the boards rules, I don't think her post warranted that.
-------------------------
@bouee
you can do brief summaries in your own words but you can't link or post transcripts and/or summaries done by other websites / fans.
yes the first type of lawsuit I mentioned. that's the employer suing employee for gross negligence during the course of work. but as I tried to point out multiple times such lawsuit is based on the premise / fact that Hotel ABC states/ accepts they hired Mr. Jerk to do renovations and claim he was grossly negligent during the course of the work. Given that AEG says they did not hire Murray as the contract wasn't signed and given that AEG says they did not hire Murray for sleep / pain etc. issues, you will see that expecting such lawsuit is becoming unrealistic.
In other words you cannot sue an employee for negligent work when you claim that's not your employee because no contract was signed. AEG cannot simultaneously say "we did not hire Murray" and sue him for being "negligent worker during the course of his job". Similarly AEG cannot simultaneously sue Murray for "breach of contract" and claim "there's no valid contract".
Honestly I fail to understand what is so hard to see that " we did not hire Murray" and "Murray is a grossly negligent employee" are two conflicting positions.
damages are the second part of it. in your example a part of the hotel is destroyed so there's damages and repair costs. Now cancellation of TII could mean loss of income and damages in a trial. However from Lloyds lawsuit we know that AEG said they have no loss and therefore no claim for insurance as Estate already paid them the production costs. tygger assumes they actually profited.
and that's the second factor in making such lawsuit impossible. If you have loss of income / damages sure you can ask for that, however if you have no damages and even made a profit then what are you going to ask for?
I know this is a silly example but imagine in your example part of the hotel burns and they find a gold vein in the ground. so what are they going to sue for? "the bad contractor you burned the hotel and now we are richer"? Does that make sense to you?
Murray's conviction just makes the gross negligence claim easier to prove.
So if it was not an issue for AEG to say they hired Murray, they could do that, ie sue Murray. Did I get it right ?
it's gotta be draining to keep repeating the same thing over again.
^^
April 14 is also the date Michael goes to Vegas and Murray alleges that Dr. Adams administered him Propofol in his office. If he didn't go to Vegas before it might be probably sometime April 14 to 16
My biggest problem is that Taj took a box from the house and kept it. What is wrong with these people? don't they know Michael has an estate. Then he mentions Jefferys giving him drives and no one asks what is this guy doing with Michael's property. I wonder how many items from those 2 storages have been sold so far?
You know what I found very interesting: All the Jacksons so far talked about "material" wealth that Michael gave them, that he was supposed to give them, or what they took from his place. However, his own children have not talked about "material" wealth that they got or was supposed to get from their dad.
Joe and Rowe also visited Carolwood on April 3rd, Paris birthday. There were pictures of them in front of the gates and after awhile they were let inside. So this is probably the first time MJ saw Joe.
I came across someone who was selling black and white photos of the Jackson 5 tour to Japan when MJ was 13. I didn't see the whole collection but some selections. There were photos of Rose Fine, the tutor, Joe and KJ, and the brothers and some with MJ, also lots of Japanese fans. The seller wanted 4K for the whole collection and did not want to sell individual photos. I asked where the seller got the photos from, but did not get an answer. Maybe they came from the Vaccaro storage unit?
And needless to say that I think AEG does have a problem, and Phillips does too. He had all the information one could possibly have to understand Murray was incompetent - from Ortega, Houghdahl, Branca, at least. He chose to believe Murray, in spite of what happened on june 20th. He heard Murray say Michael was fine, he heard him being agressive to Ortega, and he was there when it seems , according to Ortega, that there was a discrepency between what Murray said & what really happened on june 19th. What else did he need ?
I can give him the benefit of doubt because he was under a lot of stress at the time, but that doesn't make him not liable, and I can not accept his testimony and his attitude on the stand. Again, whatever the jury will decide, that will not change my mind about this.
Again, and that's not specifically directed to you, not supporting the Jacksons, does not mean supporting AEG 150% and justifying everything they do..
Petra--do you mean Debbie Rowe?
Mechi--yes, I want to hear from AEG too--I just wonder when that will be due to the Dileo 40,000 emails that are now going to be examined by both sides!!
Re the dates, according to Randall Sullivan (sorry), CM started spending the night at Carolwood May 8th, so that's even a bit later than I estimated (I said April 23rd). So I am not sure where the 60 days comes in--looks more like 45 days, or less if he was not there Sundays.
Sullivan also says that on March 25th, Joe and Leonard Rowe 'gained entry' to Carolwood.
Now this whole thing with Joe, Leonard, Allgood, and DiLeo is very important and will I hope be examined in the trial when they get to the Dileo emails (?).
According to Sullivan, in October of 2008, Patrick Allocco flies to Vegas to meet with Joe, who send him to meet with DiLeo in Nashville--all this is concerning the Family Reunion Concert (a kind of parallel universe to AEG).
Nov. 20-21 Allocco meets with DiLeo in Nashville and he signs a 'binder agreement" for the Jackson Reunion Concert. In January of 2009, Allocco hires Leonard Rowe as a "consultant." February 3rd, KJ, LR, and Allocco talk about the Reunion Concert over lunch. Feb. 12th LR and Allocco meet with Dennis Hawk. After the March 25th "gaining entry" at Carolwood of Joe and Leonard, Leonard meets DiLeo for the 1st time. March 27th Leonard send out the press release stating he is MJ's manager, and then MJ stops taking his calls. Allgood sends 'cease and desist" letter to AEG saying that DiLeo is MJ's manager and has signed an agreement with them.
Ok, I'll stop here but you can see that DiLeo is deep in this when it comes to the Allgood situation, which Joe started in motion back in October of 08.
I think IF the AllGood concerts, family pressure had NOT come into the mix of an already stressful situation re lauching and preparing for the AEG shows, MJ would NOT have had such severe insomnia that he resorted to propofol administered by CM. The time period of from March 13 to April 23rd is the critical time period when he chose to go down that route. I always ask WHY and this is the answer I come up with--family BETRAYAL, meaning instead of love andd support there was pressure to do other shows to make the family happy--to be their cash cow. IMO AEG alone did not pressure MJ into a state of such anxiety that he could not sleep-- b/c he did not start the propofol until after the AllGood stuff came into the mix. I think the family is hypocritical in pointing to one source of pressure and not looking at the other--themselves!