Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[crillon]

Crillion you know I don't think any fans in the thread think Michael did not have a dependency. I think one of the problems is that some fans recognize 93, but for the other years, because the source of the information come from people who they find have been untruthful at times, they do not want to believe them. Another thing is they don't think he was abusing drugs all the time, which some of the experts claim.

Even Dr. F. did not ask Michel about his problem. He claims he went on the internet and found out information. I find this is crazy behavior. If you are in a one-to-one relationship with a patient, why can't you ask the patient questions?

We'll never know for sure how long Michael dealt with drug issues. I lean toward the "benefit of the doubt" absent any real evidence, so the confusion going on in the courtroom (& even among his doctors) and in this forum around it is no surprise. We just don't know and are speculating about it.

Crillon funny, I know who you mean when you said the person visited the burial site.

I wonder what Panish will like to repair during rebuttal--something about the Contract, something in the drug testimony, something about AEG knowing...

LOL. I knew you'd know Think she may have been the fan who approached the alternate juror, right? She tweeted her comment about Randy today, I think.

 

[ivy]

Crillion you know I don't think any fans in the thread think Michael did not have a dependency. I think one of the problems is that some fans recognize 93, but for the other years, because the source of the information come from people who they find have been untruthful at times, they do not want to believe them.

I understand that but I don't get the denial about the 5 implants in 2002. forget anything everyone said and just look to the actions. You have Michael fly 10 hours to florida and get an opiate blocker inserted to his body 5 times even after it caused an infection. Who inserts implants and goes through 12 step program if they have no problems and no need for such things? Michael's action alone demonstrative enough to show that he thought he had a problem and he needed to do something about it and he didn't give up.

 

[Tygger]

Randy’s past has no connection to AEG’s action and reactions towards Michael and the doctor as That Other Fan has already stated. No one has been able to make a logical connection between the two either.

Jurors have heard and will continue to hear stories about Michael’s past (they will not hear about Randy’s unless they read fan forums this weekend) and may conclude Michael is 100% responsible for his own passing and absolve AEG. They may also reject AEG’s attempt to blame Michael with each of their witnesses thus far minus Briggs and Jorrie (somewhat). AEG has continually allowed witnesses to give only portions of past events in the hopes jurors will create their own beginnings and endings; the more suspicious they are of Michael, the better for AEG. It is interesting that this has only been discovered by some posters in Randy’s deposition but, with no other witness even though this is the method AEG has used with all of their witnesses testifying to their memories of Michael. Not one of those memories absolve AEG from allegedly hiring the doctor and not vetting him beforehand.

That Other Fan, Jrsfan, great posts. Please let me add that when the family wanted Michael to tour, he was to receive the highest amount of monies of all family members. Of course those monies amounts were minor compared to AEG's (gross) monies amounts and maybe this is why Michael chose AEG to better help him resolve his debt.

Michael having issues and people trying to help him is good and kudos to Randy for trying but that's not the issue on this trial.

Ivy, does AEG know this? AEG’s defense is Michael was a secretive addict who refused help yet they summoned Randy as a witness to discuss several interventions done by the family. His testimony was played only to continue with testimonies about Michael's issues. AEG is repeating the message with every witness: Michael is responsible; however, Michael is not responsible for AEG's actions.

 

[crillon]

When Michael collapsed in 1995 rehearsing for the HBO One Night Only due to DEHYDRATION AND EXTREME FATIGUE, doctors told that to LMP.

It's probably a fact Michael had a relapse in 2001 knowing he had the narcan implant in 2002. In 2005 TMezz stated he never saw him under the influence and in 2009 the coroner showed Michael was healthy for his age and like I said before, a drug addict CAN'T BE HEALTHY. I don't know how some can justifying the Jacksons if it's been proved they've blatantly lied about Michael and their actions.

That's what the media reported. If there had been a drug issue, there's no way that would have been released or found out. LMP suspected something and when she started to drill down & ask questions, Michael told her she was "causing trouble" and to stop. This is when she was asked to leave the hospital & they broke up right after that event. (Source: Randy Taraborelli, Michael Jackson: The Magic, Madness)

 

[serendipity]

That's where we disagree, because I don't see outright lies. I see things being revealed that some don't want to accept and/or don't want to be public knowledge. Which I understand, that however, doesn't mean they are lies.

Doesn't mean they are truths either. If they were revealing things how about revealing the real agenda behind a lot of those so called interventions? How about revealing the real reason why MJ didn't want to see them?

Notice how they try to portray themselves as this loving caring family and in the process throwing MJ and everyone else under the bus? Yea that's how much they care for him. And you expect the fans not to call them out on their crap?

I have no problem with the Jacksons wanting him to tour with them. If my son or brother had an addiction problem, the family may think it was better for him to be around family to make sure he didn't relapse - so to me it makes perfect sense. Just because someone has an addiction problem at times does not mean they don't ever work again, which would not be healthy.

You may not have a problem, but MJ clearly had a big problem and rightfully so. In addition to that how exactly were they going to make sure he didn't relapse? His big problem was his insomnia which would get worse on tour. How were they going to prevent that, especially if they knew nothing about it as they claim? What makes you think they will succeed this time when they failed all previous times?

Michael didn't accuse Randy. Michael accused Don Stabler. As I told you before, pay attention what Michael actually said and not what insinuated by the writer.

Yes he did. Randy was acting together with Stabler. And trying to force him to sell the catalog wasn't the only deal they tried to get. MJ clearly says " I told THEM. .... and so THEY marched out" It's quite clear Randy was up to his neck in that mess. Stabler also testified when MJ would refuse to sign a deal Randy would tell him "My brother has been drinking"

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

That's what the media reported. If there had been a drug issue, there's no way that would have been released or found out. LMP suspected something and when she started to drill down & ask questions, Michael told her she was "causing trouble" and to stop. This is when she was asked to leave the hospital & they broke up right after that event.

LM has lied about Michael on many occasions, I don't trust her word.

And you know media LOVES exxagerating stories. I'm pretty sure they'd had report it and even invented more sordid details on that incident.

 

[That Other Fan]

what evidence in post 1993? the one that have been discussed in court have nothing to do with drugs. instead they relate to dehydration and stress unless I'm completely mistaken. the reality is randy's story does not stick and that's the bottom line. you can't stage an intervention for someone you've barely had contact with for 5 years or so. it's just common sense. he claimed he staged interventions with doctors in various cities yet could not identify not even one doctor. I'll tell you why because there was no doctor, you don't bring doctors to pressurize your brother to do reunion tours or to bug him with money problems. there is a reason MJ was looking for surrogate families. and to add insult to injury he goes on to claim MJ was 90 pounds, which means MJ was almost invisible, bony, emaciated. plus, the coroner has a different story claiming MJ died healthy for his age despite being very thin.

I just don't find his story credible despite your effort to the contrary.

If they barely had contact, they also wouldn't be able to pressure him for money and to do concerts. Can't have it both ways. Also, if you are being alerted of issues from within his inner circle, that could spearhead an attempt at interventions, even without seeing things in depth for yourself.

What we can say is that there was a conflict of interest. They attempted to intervene with what they may have thought was excessive prescription drug use, but also pushed for a family tour. IMO, the family, the advisors, etc should've pushed for Michael to live out his life away from the spotlight (After the hell of 2003-2005, that's what I wanted for him).

However, Michael was giving consideration to performing again. It's not something the family pushed him into doing. He just wanted to perform solo, which he had every right to do. Therefore, you must give consideration to that when considering the family pushing for a reunion tour. The family wanted a reunion tour, Michael didn't want that. Simple as that. Still doesn't mean the interventions or attempts never took place.

 

[Petrarose]

Passy I don't find Randy credible either. Yes there is a little piece of truth in his testimony, but overall too much vagueness. If a dr. lived near you, and he was good enough to go with you all the way to your brother's home, then you will remember his name. However, Randy does not remember--not realistic. If you pick up pill bottles, the first thing the average snoopy person does is look at the drug name, so how come he sees Grace name and not the name of the drug. Not realistic. It is like the people who look in other people's medicine cabinet. They are looking at the names of your drugs. Drug addiction is a serious thing, so if you bring that huge family with you to do an intervention, it takes much preparation to get everyone together. Therefore, you will remember who went, when, and where. However, Randy does not remember all the people who went, all the times, and when. Then, in the age of cell-phones and phones, Randy writes and makes copies of the letter to all members to tell them about Michael drug problem, because they don't look at their e-mails. Really? How about the phone. Not realistic. Then he flip flops--he states he can't say addict because he is not qualified. Then he forgot about that and went back to saying addict. There are several more examples....

Then there is something different about Randy's Answers vs the average person, like Paris, Prince, Kai, Kenny, Randy P, etc., Usually when you are asked a question, there is a tendency to digress when you answer or give a little context or story about your answer. For example, they ask Paris about Grace. Paris did not simple give a short direct answer. She presents a story about what her dad told her about Grace. She gives time, ie., before Blanket was born. She gives place, i.e., in a hotel. She gives How, i.e., by saying she was his wife. They did not ask Paris for this long story, but this is what happens in a situation when the person is telling you a truthful account of something. The mind wanders and little details pop out. Now compare that to Randy's claims about interventions and you don't get all that extra detail.

When he does name a house, Neverland, NY, Las Vegas & Taiwan, he does not give details of the intervention.

Any time a jury hear a witness boasting about him doing everything, being the only one to keep things in control, and people were afraid of him, they begin to see Panish's Red Flag and look at the person as well as the testimony critically. The same thing about Karen who portrayed herself as knowing everything, seeing everything, Michel wanted her where he could always see her, women jealous of her relationship with Michael, she knew Michael would die--she and her testimony is another Red Flag.

I think Randy went in the helicopter. I think he was in the car at Neverland. He claims he jumped the gate, but another bodyguard said he crashed the gate. I think one of the dr in their testimony said he was at the house with Michael. Now Jermaine said he did not go in the car, but a dr went and Michael said he was OK and the dr the Jacksons brought agreed that Michael was ok. However, Randy did not say all that. I don't know who Jermaine got his story from, but it seems true that Randy and others did go to Neverland in a car and the bodyguard would not let them in. Therefore, I see helicopter story and Neverland story as true, but the details of Neverland could be off.

The collapse story sound true, because it is possible Michel collapsed in the house. However, I don't know if the details are true. He claimed he told the Casios to stay with him, so if a Cascio confirms this, that would be good.

 

[That Other Fan]

Doesn't mean they are truths either. If they were revealing things how about revealing the real agenda behind a lot of those so called interventions? How about revealing the real reason why MJ didn't want to see them?

Notice how they try to portray themselves as this loving caring family and in the process throwing MJ and everyone else under the bus? Yea that's how much they care for him. And you expect the fans not to call them out on their crap?

That's assumption that the interventions were disingenuous and I don't believe they were.

 

[Ashtanga]

Yes there is a little piece of truth in his testimony, but overall too much vagueness.

No matter what Randy will tell. Anything he says will lead us to doubt. It is a fact that he and the rest of the family did not participate of life of Michael and so do not have a clue what was going on in his life. We fans know much more than Randy and his family. :bugeyed Randy is not and will never be reliable. :nono: And that goes also for the rest of the family! -_- :fear:

 

[jamba]

I think it's obvious that the so-called interventions in Taiwan and in Las Vegas were bogus. In Taiwan, MJ was asked to commit to appearing at the Jackson Family Honors, which was Jermaine's brain-child. That was the reason the family flew to Taiwan--to get him to commit and to show public support. MJ agreed to appear but not to perform. His agreeing to appear was critical for the success of the venture. And this was the case for all the family ventures--they needed MJ to sign on to get sponsors, investors and an audience. If they planned something as a family show and he did not appear, it wouldn't fly. Now that he is not here any more, they have started to do things on their own, but they still use his name for a lot of ventures as well.

Re the LV intervention, Leonard Rowe talks about this in his book and he was there--in fact, he arranged it--and it was clearly an effort to get MJ and Janet and the brothers to perform together. Leonard goes into detail about this. He was called by Janet on Christmas Day 2006 when MJ had only just returned to USA, and Janet's problem was that her tour had been cancelled and she felt obligated to her band to help them get a gig (since they lost the one with her). Leonard then came up with the idea of a family tour. The people who went to visit MJ in January 07 (no prior notice) were Joe, Leonard, Janet, Jermaine, Randy, Marlon, Tito (not sure re Jackie or Rebbie--I would have to check). I wrote about this in another post earlier. They really pressured MJ. MJ refused, Janet got angry, and then MJ started to get angry too.

Look at this--he had just returned from exile back to his home country and had barely landed and there they are at the gate pressuring him to go on tour, to help them out. And that is the story of the relationship--MJ had to help them (in their minds) and not the other way around (they had to help him). Not what can we do for you but what can you do for us.

Then all the pressure from Leonard and the family continues with the AllGood fiasco ending in more pressure during the AEG tour--meeting about it in May 09, pratically all the way up to his death. To me if we took the family out of the equation in 09 with their pressure for gimme gimme, MJ might still be alive.

The basic fact is that the marriage between Joe and KJ has always been dysfunctional--she is the religious saint and he is the constant womanizer--and when the core unit (the marriage) is dysfunctional, the children come out with all kinds of problems and dysfunction as well, including conflicts between them.

 

[Soundmind]

I understand that but I don't get the denial about the 5 implants in 2002. forget anything everyone said and just look to the actions. You have Michael fly 10 hours to florida and get an opiate blocker inserted to his body 5 times even after it caused an infection. Who inserts implants and goes through 12 step program if they have no problems and no need for such things? Michael's action alone demonstrative enough to show that he thought he had a problem and he needed to do something about it and he didn't give up.

No one denied that . It shows a determination to stay clear this is so different from the portray AEG and Randy had of him. It proved he was not in denial , he was not a manipulator , he had legitimate disease when he felt it became a problem he sought help . Is this what AEG claims ?

We have tried to explain that many many times .However, it was shoved into our throats that what AEG have been claiming regarding drugs was only realistic and objective , we should deal with it else we are delusionals .

 

[Bubs]

I think they went to Asia to show the world they supported him. I don't think it was a drug intervention as Randy said. It makes no sense that a person says he is going to rehab, and then his family comes and do an intervention. I know some here believe that, but it makes no sense. Think about it. Elizabeth comes to take me to rehab and I say I have a problem. Then, my family rushes to do a drug intervention? Why? I already admitted I have a problem, and I am on to the next step--I am off to rehab!!! So Asia was not an intervention, but an attempt to show support and to make Michael sign a paper during his weakened moment.

About New York, it could be after the Madison show. They could have asked him about drugs then, because we know from the testimony that the dr. gave him a shot for him to sleep. That is still not an intervention.

I thought I read something in Margaret M book about Taiwan episode, I'll try to find her book for checking what she said about it.

About MSG thingy. Frank C wrote in his book that he contacted on MJ's family:
AS MUCH AS I WORRIED ABOUT MICHAEL’S MEDICAL situation, I never imagined it would interfere with his performance at the 30th Special. He was, after all, a consummate professional, and if anything, he used the medicine to help prepare himself for an appearance. But as the night of the first concert approached, Michael started seeing a new doctor. Although his health had improved under the care of Dr. Farshchian and he had successfully tapered off his medicine, there came a time when the good doctor had to return to his family in Florida. He couldn’t babysit Michael, and neither could I. The doctor who replaced him was based in New York; he was a sweet man, with a nice family. Unfortunately, Michael, in spite of the progress he had made with Dr. Farshchian, requested the same old medications. Though he never appeared to suffer from any kind of stage fright, my only theory to explain this behavior was that he must have been anxious about the upcoming shows. The new doctor was naive, and complied with Michael’s requests.

I tried to speak to Michael about it, but soon realized that I wasn’t getting through to him and that I needed some help. His family was coming to town for their appearance in the special. There were ties that bound them—no matter how much time and distance was between them—and I hoped that they might be able to intervene. Who else could I trust? If Michael had known I was talking to anyone, even his family, about my concerns, he would have killed me. In general, he did not want his family to know his business—especially when it came to things that he was adamant about keeping secret.

But I was convinced that it was the right thing to do, and so I spoke with Randy, Tito, and Janet. Tito and I walked around the Four Seasons several times, just talking. I had a private conversation with Randy. I didn’t speak with Michael’s mother: though I knew how much influence she had with him, it seemed wrong to burden a mother of a certain age with such distressing news about her beloved son. The family took my words seriously, and a couple of days before the show, they met with Michael to talk about the matter. But of course Michael told them that there was no cause for concern. He had barely acknowledged to himself that he had a problem. They wanted to be there for him, and they tried, but, as I had feared, he wouldn’t let his family into his life to help— not even for a moment.

Michael avoided confrontations. After the meeting, all he said about it was, “My family talked to me about my medicine. They were out of line.”

 

[Bubs]

Michael didn't accuse Randy. Michael accused Don Stabler. As I told you before, pay attention what Michael actually said and not what insinuated by the writer. Also, as we both know, Stabler wasn't the only person Randy introduced to Michael to handle his affairs. There have been many shady characters that have entered the family's life, Michael included. I've been apart of the online fan community for years, I've seen it all. I've seen people in Michael's circle that we felt he shouldn't be trusting only for him to be burned publically. The family isn't going to be any better at navigating through the sharks than Michael was.

Some excerpts from Stabler’s deposition about what had happened at this meeting:

Stabler: I got a call from Taunya who said that Grace said Michael did not want to have the meeting. Randy talked to Taunya and said, “**** that.”
Stabler: Randy said, “We are having this meeting. We’ve gone through a lot of trouble for it. I’ll take care of it when we get there.”
Stabler: Randy asked us to stay in the car, he went in and spoke with Michael and then later came out and said the meeting is on.
Stabler: Michael looked at the document we gave him and said, “I’m not signing any document that asked me to give part of my catalog.”
Stabler: Randy tried to explain the docs to him, Sydow said he’ll go through it line by line. Michael said he didn’t want to go through it.
Stabler: Before Randy could say anything Michael said, “you know, I don’t want any violence”.
Stabler: Randy tried to go through the document with Michael but Michael was just not having it. I suggested to Randy that we should leave.
Stabler : In the car Randy said to me that my brother has been drinking.

Source: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...n-Rehab-Interventions-vs-Family-Concert-Tours

 

[Soundmind]

Cherubim you comment:

Here's a fact check.
According to the state of California and a jury of the peers of Dr. Conrad Murray,
Michael Jackson's death was the direct result of Conrad Murray's horrible medical practice.
If Michael Jackson had received good, watchful, medical care, he would still be here with his children.


^^So true!!!

Crillion you know I don't think any fans in the thread think Michael did not have a dependency. I think one of the problems is that some fans recognize 93, but for the other years, because the source of the information come from people who they find have been untruthful at times, they do not want to believe them. Another thing is they don't think he was abusing drugs all the time, which some of the experts claim.

Even Dr. F. did not ask Michel about his problem. He claims he went on the internet and found out information. I find this is crazy behavior. If you are in a one-to-one relationship with a patient, why can't you ask the patient questions?

I've never seen anyone here who refutes MJ had a problem in 2002 .
I wrote this before , MJ in 2007 gave a deposition in a lawsuit he did say he might have been medicated , under the influence of medication when he signed some documents in 2001 or 2002 . We've been aware of this statement since 2007 . The madison square garden concerts , MJ was clearly not in good shape . He did not deny anything , he told his doctors , he felt he had a problem , he did have medical reasons to take drugs , he told his mother , the faint was not drug related as the paramedics told the bodyguard . A doctor removed by mistake the implant he went and got it back , was he given credit for doing that ? NOOOO , it is used against him like having an implant was some sort of a crime he committed . AEG is not telling the truth , they have been exaggerating everything since day one , we have the right to say that . We have the right to say AEG misrepresented the evidence when they tried to manipulate the jury into believing the incident in 2002 was drug related that his irresponsibility put his kids in that terrifying experience . When they knew from the bodyguard's deposition it was caused by low blood pressure not drugs . They have the right to defend themselves.However, no one have the right to defame a dead man .

Some here refuse to understand that . Put everything in perspective when you talk about drugs , whether AEG won or not who really cares ? MJ had no one to defend him but us .

 

[Soundmind]

But as the night of the first concert approached, Michael started seeing a new doctor. Although his health had improved under the care of Dr. Farshchian and he had successfully tapered off his medicine, there came a time when the good doctor had to return to his family in Florida. He couldn’t babysit Michael, and neither could I. The doctor who replaced him was based in New York; he was a sweet man, with a nice family. Unfortunately, Michael, in spite of the progress he had made with Dr. Farshchian, requested the same old medications. Though he never appeared to suffer from any kind of stage fright, my only theory to explain this behavior was that he must have been anxious about the upcoming shows. The new doctor was naive, and complied with Michael’s requests.

I tried to speak to Michael about it, but soon realized that I wasn’t getting through to him and that I needed some help. His family was coming to town for their appearance in the special. There were ties that bound them—no matter how much time and distance was between them—and I hoped that they might be able to intervene. Who else could I trust? If Michael had known I was talking to anyone, even his family, about my concerns, he would have killed me. In general, he did not want his family to know his business—especially when it came to things that he was adamant about keeping secret.

Dr. Farshchian himself testified he was the doctor who injected MJ that day he could not rehearse nor stand on his damaged ankle .

why would the doctor lie about that ? why would he volunteer to say he was there and gave the injection when he was not ?

Like Randy , Frank could not name the New York doctor who was a sweet guy with loving family , why did not he name him like he named Farshchian ? He blamed the manipulator MJ for what happened that day so no reason not to name the "good" doctor.

 

[Bubs]

I think they went to Asia to show the world they supported him. I don't think it was a drug intervention as Randy said. It makes no sense that a person says he is going to rehab, and then his family comes and do an intervention. I know some here believe that, but it makes no sense. Think about it. Elizabeth comes to take me to rehab and I say I have a problem. Then, my family rushes to do a drug intervention? Why? I already admitted I have a problem, and I am on to the next step--I am off to rehab!!! So Asia was not an intervention, but an attempt to show support and to make Michael sign a paper during his weakened moment.

According to Randy, everytime when family approached MJ was an intervention. Most of times they approached MJ was for other reasons, and were for ask MJ to help out them for various business ideas
Check out what Margaret M says about Taiwan:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/50562046/Jackson-Family-Values
page 389
Mj was in Taiwan Sep 1993

I'm seriously sick of this family.
I used to think that having the biggest selling album out was the gift and curse for MJ, but having that family was just plain curse.

 

[Big Apple2]

Bubs can you post a little write up regarding what Margaret M had to say about Taiwan. I'm unable to access that information right now. Thanks!

Does anybody know who's at bat today? I take it Randy's deposition testimony is complete and the next witness is going to be whom?

 

[Bubs]

Dr. Farshchian himself testified he was the doctor who injected MJ that day he could not rehearse nor stand on his damaged ankle .

why would the doctor lie about that ? why would he volunteer to say he was there and gave the injection when he was not ?

Like Randy , Frank could not name the New York doctor who was a sweet guy with loving family , why did not he name him like he named Farshchian ? He blamed the manipulator MJ for what happened that day so no reason not to name the "good" doctor.

Actually he did not say such a thing.
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...-AEG-Live-Daily-Trial-Testimony-Summary/page4
"Dr. Farshchian treated MJ in April 2001 and stopped in 2003. 'I was one of his doctors," he said. Dr. Farshchian said MJ was having an issue with his ankle, he was supposed to performed at Madison Square Garden, had to rehearse. Dr. Farshchian: And he had an ankle issue that was more like a sprained ankle that was not healing and he had to continue to dance on it. "He made an appointment like everybody else," Dr. Farshchian said. (ABC7)"

There were nothing in his testimony that he gave injection to MJ on the day of MSG show?
Above paragraph, he says MJ was having angle issue and was rehearsing for the show. I got an impression that it could have been days or weeks before the show.

Unlike Randy, Frank was writing a book, and I don't know if he got permission from Dr van Valin to mention his name in his book. Maybe he contacted on Valin and asked if he doesn't mind mention his name, and got refusal from van Valin?

 

[Bubs]

Bubs can you post a little write up regarding what Margaret M had to say about Taiwan. I'm unable to access that information right now. Thanks!

Does anybody know who's at bat today? I take it Randy's deposition testimony is complete and the next witness is going to be whom?

This was after the molestation rumors were running wild, Joe, Katherine and Jermaine (note Randy wasn't there but that didn't stop him says it was an intervention) decided to show support to MJ.

"Meanwhile, Jermaine, Kath and Joe flew to Taiwan where MJ was now touring. To all the world, the gesture was to show support for MJ. What the press didn't know was that in his pocket Jermaine had a letter of intent for the " Jackson Family honours" show, which he was determined to get MJ to sign. He finally succeded, but K was furious that J & J hounded MJ into signing it at a time when Mj was under doctor's care for exhaustion and being fed by intravenously."


This is what Randy testified:
Q: Did you go to Taiwan?
A: Yes, with Rebbie and some family members
MJ was doing shows in Taiwan.
Randy said what spurred him to go to Taiwan was the fact that he needed help, he was far away, we said we need to go.

 

[ivy]

No one denied that . It shows a determination to stay clear this is so different from the portray AEG and Randy had of him. It proved he was not in denial , he was not a manipulator , he had legitimate disease when he felt it became a problem he sought help . Is this what AEG claims ?

We have tried to explain that many many times .However, it was shoved into our throats that what AEG have been claiming regarding drugs was only realistic and objective , we should deal with it else we are delusionals .

I've never seen anyone here who refutes MJ had a problem in 2002 .

see this shows misunderstandings from everyone. I could have sworn that you deny the 2002 problem, just a few pages back you wrote there was no evidence to show Michael was taking drugs, previously you talked about medical records and so on and I have even see for example bouee to write she doesn't know how serious the problem was.

To me this is the part that sounds like a denial- as I said before forget everything else, just the implants themselves demonstrate a problem Michael thought to be serious enough to take action. No one inserts blockers into their body, if they did not think they had a problem. The rest (MSG event, Disney event & birth of Blanket) fits with a relapse and realization that there is a problem and motivation to make a change. relapses and actions to get clean doesn't happen in a single moment. There needs to be events leading up to that. a problem building up, a realization, a motivation is needed. Also I don't think expecting a medical record detailing drug use amounts are realistic, no doctor would keep a record of such when it's wrong thing to do. Why do you think Murray did not keep a record? Have you ever seen a thief keep a confession blog?

I never claimed what AEG says is realistic or objective. I said they had a right to defend themselves and "blame the victim" was expected defense strategy. There's a huge difference that's being misunderstood there.

As for the 2002 implants, it's been mentioned by AEG so defense wise they aren't against to demonstrate Michael's attempts of getting clean. They mentioned it in their opening statements too. As far as their defense strategy goes , the secretive part is not many people knowing about it : for some reason Katherine denied knowledge, Randy testified he did not know how Michael got himself clean and Fournier did not know about it even during surgery.

 

[Kerry Hennigan]

And that is the story of the relationship--MJ had to help them (in their minds) and not the other way around (they had to help him). Not what can we do for you but what can you do for us.

This is certainly the way it seems to me. I was shocked by what Randy said, but I don't have the background knowledge that a lot of long-time fans have. Boy-oh-boy, what a brother. (What a family!)

Knowing of his past and who knows what present duplicities, his 'testimony' so-called, is what the headline writers in the media love. Never mind all the other witnesses saying they never saw him under the influence, using or having drugs, or witnessed him under the influence only rare occasions, or that he tried desperately to be free of them - a brother's testimony is conclusive as far as the media and unsuspecting public is concerned.

Those who say that the fans knew Michael more than members of his own family are very close to the truth, I feel.

A very sad state of affairs (if it didn't make me so ANGRY!) :angry:

 

[Soundmind]

The rest (MSG event, Disney event & birth of Blanket) fits with a relapse and realization that there is a problem and motivation to make a change.

The explanation was stricken by the judge but there is no need to always pretend you were not aware of it . See that's the problem if you continue to insist that event was drug-related even after it was explicitly said in court it was caused by low blood sugar , how will you ever stop pushing a theory based on unfounded medical records ?

Even the scumbag Klien provided very detailed records , yet just because they did not prove he was addict we must assume he kept some hidden !

If he was the addict in 2001-2002 described by AEG and Randy he would have needed to be injected twice a day at least , where are the records ?forget about three years records , Did they have records of consecutive days of demerol from one doctor ? from various doctors who knew nothing about each other ?
a period lasted three years where a doctor speaking about an incident in 2001 and another about incident in 2003 proves nothing . He considered taking demerol a problem , does not mean the problem was as bad as AEG have been claiming that's boue's point .

AEG has claimed he abused drugs on continuous basis for the last decades , a short period of time he was clean (2003 and 2004 or 2005) then he relapsed , this the period during which Randy Jackson claims he staged 4 interventions ( 2004-2006) , go figure .

I feel I need to post this just so people again put into perspective everything. If he was the person described by AEG and Randy the coroner would not be surprised at how healthy he was .


Source: Investigators Surprised at Jackson's Health
Saturday, June 27, 2009 ( only two days after his death)
By Adam Housley

The body of Michael Jackson, who died Thursday, has been released by the Los Angeles County coroner's office.

Coroner Investigator Jerry McKibben says Jackson's body was returned to the singer's family Friday night and was moved to an undisclosed mortuary.

Jackson's body had been kept in its own crypt at the morgue under lock so that no pictures of the body would be leaked, a source told FOX News. Such a move rarely, if ever, happens
The source told FOX News investigators conducting the autopsy were also surprised at how healthy Jackson was.

While he wasn't necessarily normal, he appeared to be stronger than they expected. Investigators were surprised to see significant scarring on his face, this being the first time they had seen Jackson without make-up.

He had bruises on his chest consistent with someone trying to revive him, but there were no obvious signs of a heart attack, which leads investigators to believe some sort of drug or drug combination caused either the heart to stop beating or the lungs to stop breathing.

Craig Harvey, a spokesman for the Los Angeles County coroner, said Friday there were no signs of foul play in the autopsy and further tests would be needed to determine Jackson's cause of death.

Jackson died Thursday afternoon at the age of 50 after being rushed from the Los Angeles area mansion where he was staying to UCLA Medical Center, where he was pronounced dead at 2:26 p.m.

No funeral plans have been made public.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529226,00.html

 

[jaydom7]

I've always said that the fans knew more and were more concerned about MJ than his own family. It was a fan who wrote Karen Faye that letter in June 2009 expressing her concerns about MJ and his rapid weight loss and appearance when she saw him at Staples Center. Karen in turn sent AEG an email instead of approaching MJ or anyone around MJ that cared. If a MJ fan is worried and concerned about MJ's health and appearance but his own Mother is clueless and doesn't give a damn at all what does that tell you?

 

[TheChosenOne]

That's assumption that the interventions were disingenuous and I don't believe they were.

Why don't you believe they were disingenuous?

 

[TheChosenOne]

Edit. I am too furious right now to even make sense!

I will say this - Randy Jackson is a pathological liar and a DISGRACE!!!!

How much negative stuff did he VOLUNTEER as opposed to having been DRAGGED from him by the AEG lawyers?

 

[Bubs]

This is certainly the way it seems to me. I was shocked by what Randy said, but I don't have the background knowledge that a lot of long-time fans have. Boy-oh-boy, what a brother. (What a family!)

Knowing of his past and who knows what present duplicities, his 'testimony' so-called, is what the headline writers in the media love. Never mind all the other witnesses saying they never saw him under the influence, using or having drugs, or witnessed him under the influence only rare occasions, or that he tried desperately to be free of them - a brother's testimony is conclusive as far as the media and unsuspecting public is concerned.

Those who say that the fans knew Michael more than members of his own family are very close to the truth, I feel.

A very sad state of affairs (if it didn't make me so ANGRY!) :angry:

I wish there was a way that someone could sue that horrible family and all of their lies could be somehow exposed to the world.


@Soundmind
"The explanation was stricken by the judge but there is no need to always pretend you were not aware of it . See that's the problem if you continue to insist that event was drug-related even after it was explicitly said in court it was caused by low blood sugar , how will you ever stop pushing a theory based on unfounded medical records ?"

and you posted this earlier:
the faint was not drug related as the paramedics told the bodyguard .

Where did you get that? I re-read his testimony and there was nothing about that bodyguard said paramedics told him it wasn't drug related?
"LaPerruque never saw the paramedics report. They did no take the MJ to the hospital.
Chang asked if there was a mention of low blood sugar in the report. Defendant's attorney objected based on hearsay and judge sustained it."

Wasn't he asked if it could have been low blood pressure and bg in his opinion said yes?

 

[ivy]

The explanation was stricken by the judge but there is no need to always pretend you were not aware of it . See that's the problem if you continue to insist that event was drug-related even after it was explicitly said in court it was caused by low blood sugar , how will you ever stop pushing a theory based on unfounded medical records ?

I guess eventually you will realize that we aren't the jury and we aren't limited to what is allowed and what is stricken or we need to follow the law when we are forming our perceptions on this thread. I'm aware of what is said but it doesn't change my opinion. Our opinions are also shaped by our personal experiences. I wrote this multiple times I haven't seen a person who just fainted due to dehydration / blood pressure to be unresponsive to stimuli. Paramedics only do a visual determination. a relapse / or dependency happens with a problem getting worse, a realization and a motivation to get better.

you can argue with me as much as you want, you can call me whatever you want, it won't change my opinion. even if I'm wrong about Disney event and it was just due to low blood sugar, it won't change the fact that Michael got implants because he thought he had a problem in 2001 /2002 and needed help.

So if it will end this never ending anger fest, I will say "fine there's no definitive proof Disney was due to drugs and he might have fainted due to blood sugar but still he had a problem with opiates in 2001 / 2002 to the point he got implants".

Even the scumbag Klien provided very detailed records , yet just because they did not prove he was addict we must assume he kept some hidden !

First of all I did not say that so you are exaggerating. In Debbie Rowe's deposition she said Klein ordered Demerol in his clinics name so that it can't be tracked to any single patient. It's the same reason why Murray ordered Propofol in his clinics name. I'm not a doctor or able to determine if what Klein gave Michael shown dependency (3 out of 4 experts did classify it as addiction, including a Jacksons expert) but I can tell you that in my opinion giving a person with known painkiller dependency (talking about 1993) high amounts of painkillers is fishy and it risks relapse.

Even from a simple alcoholic, you would know that the way to stay clean is to stay away from it all together. I haven't seen any recovering alcoholic drinking small amounts (or large amount) of alcohol. So even if Michael wasn't addicted in 2009, Klein was playing a very very dangerous game, risking relapse every single day. Again you can attack me as much as you want, it won't change my opinion.

So again I'm willing to agree that "there's no definitive proof Michael was addicted to Demerol in 2009 but Klein was risking a relapse by giving such doses to Michael".

If he was the addict in 2001-2002 described by AEG and Randy he would have needed to be injected twice a day at least with demerol , where are the records ? A doctor speaking about an incident in 2001 and another about incident in 2003 proves nothing .

see this is the unrealistic part for me. Let's try something. Murray gave Michael Propofol for 60 days, where are the records? in 1993 Michael announced a problem and went to rehab, where are the records that shows the injections prior to the rehab? Do you get where I'm going with this ?

In this one my position will be that people don't keep records of improper behavior.

 

[Bubs]

Last week he had headlines MJ drug over dose and kids couldn't wake him up, this wee Katherine's lapdog AD is posting Randy's garbage:
Randy Jackson gave new insight into what happened that infamous day of the trial when Michael Jackson showed up late for court wearing pajamas. At the time, the singer blamed a back injury suffered when he fell in the shower, which sent him to a hospital that morning.
His brother testified, however, it was "because he didn't want to go to court."
"I went to the hospital and he said to me, he says, 'I don't know what you're thinking. I'm not walking into that courtroom, so don't even think about it, Randy,' " he testified. "And I said, 'OK.' I said, 'But you're going to court.' He goes, 'No, I'm not.' "


CNN posted that about 2 hours ago. I'm fully expecting by tomorrow it would be on front of all the tabloids that MJ pajama day wasn't because he hurt his back, but he was running scared.

 

[ivy]

@Soundmind
"The explanation was stricken by the judge but there is no need to always pretend you were not aware of it . See that's the problem if you continue to insist that event was drug-related even after it was explicitly said in court it was caused by low blood sugar , how will you ever stop pushing a theory based on unfounded medical records ?"

and you posted this earlier:
the faint was not drug related as the paramedics told the bodyguard .

Where did you get that? I re-read his testimony and there was nothing about that bodyguard said paramedics told him it wasn't drug related?
"LaPerruque never saw the paramedics report. They did no take the MJ to the hospital.
Chang asked if there was a mention of low blood sugar in the report. Defendant's attorney objected based on hearsay and judge sustained it."

Wan't he asked if it could have been low blood pressure and bg in his opinion said yes?

mention of the low blood sugar was sustained so the jurors will disregard it. Soundmind is trying to say I'm also disregarding it as it was stricken. That's not the case. someone commented it doesn't matter if blood sugar comment was sustained, the jurors heard it. I commented that jurors cannot consider stuff that wasn't allowed. Soundmind is making it sound like I claimed or acted like we all should ignore it. It's not the case as I said.

Paramedics also cannot say it's drug related or not with certainity. Paramedics don't give on spot drug tests to people. They only evaluate people visually to determine whether it's an overdose or not. I posted the paramedics guidelines on this thread multiple times. A conscious and responsive person cannot be classified as overdose. It's apparent that the paramedics took the vitals and there might be a comment about blood sugar.