Reflection on Stranger in Moscow

[kelley]

Anyway getting back to Brad and SIM

In my opinion, SIM is credited correctly. I believe Michael composed the song and Brad just played what Michael sang to him.

I would be open to Brads original claim from 2009, being the truth, but because he has changed his story so much over the years, I am inclined to believe that even the story from 2009 is a lie.

Brad took advantage of Michael's death and started to claim he had a bigger role in the creation of Stranger in Moscow than he really did. He saw how much acclaim Stranger in Moscow was getting, so he chose that song because he wanted to be remembered and have a more permanent place in Michael's legacy.

Over the years the lie has grown and evolved as he has had to cover his tracks and because his ego has been fed by gullible MJ fans who buy into his every word and do not question him. You can literally see the transformation of his personality in videos as he has become more and more arrogant and prideful.

He went from literally kissing Michael's ass in 2005 and gushing about what a genius Michael was and how he heard everything in his head, to arrogantly stating that Michael "Just loved ME" and boasting about himself in every interview.

His accusation that Michael "stripped him of credit" when "he saw how important the song was getting" is actually him projecting what he himself has done onto Michael.

But it only works on people who have not followed Michael's career.

Stranger is Moscow was a hidden gem for many years. Most people have only discovered it after Michael's death and that coincides with Brads sudden revision of history. It was not that important when it was released.

If Brad is such a genius composer, why has he never been able to recreate the magic of Stranger in Moscow? Where are all the other amazing songs he wrote for Michael? The one song he supposedly wrote and Michael "stole" just so happens to be the song that is considered one of Michael's best? And this claim only comes after Michael has died and can never ever tell his side of the story?

 

[kelley]

The difference between Buxer pre-death and vs his demeanor today is striking. You can tell his head has been gassed up from all the years of people kissing his ass and not challenging anything he says.

2005

I'm sorry I do not believe for a second that buxer was afraid to speak up before Michael died if credit was really "stripped" from him.

2005 would have been the perfect time for him to try and claim credit. Michael's life was in shambles, the world was against him, the media would have been on Buxers side 100%. Instead Buxer was itching to tell Geraldo what a genius Michael was.

The fact that he only started claiming SIM after Michael's death should be a red flag.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Now this is the discourse I wanted to see.

 

[xam]

If Brad is such a genius composer, why has he never been able to recreate the magic of Stranger in Moscow? Where are all the other amazing songs he wrote for Michael? The one song he supposedly wrote and Michael "stole" just so happens to be the song that is considered one of Michael's best? And this claim only comes after Michael has died and can never ever tell his side of the story?

Whether he has been able to recreate the magic of Strager In Moscow is down to your taste. He has been behind some incredible songs, including Beautiful Girl.

He says he worked on 40 songs for Michael. He was musical director for years. He worked with so many others, including Stevie Wonder. I think Brad's skills are not up for debate. I am going to go through some of the other links.

As for only speaking up after MJ is dead...the truth might be easier to say when your boss is not around. And losing millions in royalties while getting no credit for your work can hurt. So maybe he just wants to let the fans know what is really going on. Much like many of the other collaborators doing interviews after MJ's death, including Bryan Loren, who is not afraid to tell it like he sees it.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

At the end of the day, MJ fans give MJ credit for literally everything lol. There is very little they don't give him kudos for, whether it's him or not. Unless they don't like it. Then it's "Sony's fault". There does need to be a balance.

 

[xam]

Buxer: Yes, Michael and I had composed those chords for the game, and it has been used as base for Stranger in Moscow.

I don't see any major changes in Brad's story, but you have a point here. Next interview with Brad should discuss this. I wonder if this actually means Brad playing something and Michael approving it, like he has said. Or Michael with active input in the process.

The first story he told about him just coming up with a few chords? or the story that he composed the whole song?

Brad has worked on a truckload of songs for MJ. He mentions where MJ did work and where he didn't. Either way, nobody's going to give Brad his dues (or his fake dues), whether he speaks the truth or lies. Sony won't...the MJ Estate won't. I am not seeing the major inconsistencies you are. Brad has nothing to benefit from changing his story, but I know he can release his book in the future, or some other projects, if people think of him as important (or more important), I suppose.

Meanwhile you have MJ fans who seem eager to help Michael's enemies drag his name through the mud and discredit him as a song writer and composer. I don't get it.

I hope that's not me. I am just attempting to get closer to the truth. I think we know MJ wrote the lyrics, or at least we hope he did. I was not in the room. I cannot possibly know what happened for sure. At best, these are guesses based on what has been said. I don't think Brad is an angel but I don't think Michael is either.

So many collaborators have been stiffed. Maybe they just like complaining or maybe it's simply unavoidable in this business. Who knows? Bryan Loren's MJ Cast interview didn't have nice words to say about Brad Buxer. Brad didn't want Bryan around, he said. It's probably true. I think everyone wanted their 'MJ Time'.

Meanwhile Brad seems too nice in his MJ Cast interview, with positive words about Bryan! Brad's interviews have always come across as too nice for my liking. It sounds like he had a great time with MJ (a dream job) and he was willing to overlook some (in my opinion, major) things for the experience, including writing credit.

Right, the trauma that was happening to Michael at that time perfectly fits with the song, but I guess that's just a coincidence.

A man who plays no instruments but happens to be feeling bad doesn't necessarily mean he can create a piece of work like Stranger In Moscow that matches his feelings (just by the simple fact that he is feeling bad). I know I couldn't.

A man who is not feeling bad doesn't necessarily mean he can't create a song that matches the emotions of someone who is feeling bad. MJ can just as easily ask Brad to play something and approve it.

How can he say there's nothing he could do about it, when he didn't even ask for credit in the first place????

I think he assumed he would get credited, as you reasonably would after doing the song (without explicitly asking for credit). I think that's a very reasonable assumption. If MJ were actually involved in this process (not giving credit if Brad composed the song), then shame on MJ. Brad worked on many songs besides Stranger In Moscow, so he has missed out on a lot (if you believe his story, that is).

 

[zinniabooklover]

At the end of the day, MJ fans give MJ credit for literally everything lol.

I don't give him credit for everything but then I don't identify as a fan so maybe that's why. I credit him with a lot bc it's deserved but not with everything.

There is very little they don't give him kudos for, whether it's him or not. Unless they don't like it. Then it's "Sony's fault". There does need to be a balance.

I agree that there needs to be balance but I'm still very suspicious of the development of Brad's SIM story. I still don't buy the idea that perhaps he wasn't established enough in the music industry or in his relationship with Michael to push for a songwriting credit on SIM. There's no way for me to know the truth of this but the story as he has told it over the years? I'm not persuaded.

 

[zinniabooklover]

[...] I think everyone wanted their 'MJ Time'.

That's an interesting point.

I think he assumed he would get credited, as you reasonably would after doing the song (without explicitly asking for credit). I think that's a very reasonable assumption.

I don't know enough about the workings of the music industry to know if it would be reasonable to make an assumption rather than asking or pushing for what you want / are entitled to. Doesn't sound very likely to me. I would think you'd have to be much more proactive. But I really don't know. Another interesting point and one which possibly could link back to your earlier point about 'MJ' time. I'm just speculating.

 

[SmoothGangsta]

The difference between Buxer pre-death and vs his demeanor today is striking. You can tell his head has been gassed up from all the years of people kissing his ass and not challenging anything he says.

2005

I'm sorry I do not believe for a second that buxer was afraid to speak up before Michael died if credit was really "stripped" from him.

2005 would have been the perfect time for him to try and claim credit. Michael's life was in shambles, the world was against him, the media would have been on Buxers side 100%. Instead Buxer was itching to tell Geraldo what a genius Michael was.

The fact that he only started claiming SIM after Michael's death should be a red flag.

If I find it very strange that you're acting like turning on Michael and telling the media he didn't get credit in 05 is something Brad should have done.

Also don't really agree with the picture you're trying to paint of him here. Whenever he speaks about Michael and the time they spent working together you can feel how much love he had for him.

When it comes to the SIM credits, perhaps he does feel he should have gotten more credit, didn't the basis of SIM instrumental basically come from a sonic the hedgehog soundtrack that was produced by MJ's team and Buxer?

Obviously you could say he has lied about this as well if you think he's a serial liar but I kinda doubt that.

 

[analogue]

It irks me because people don't want to give Michael credit for anything. Stranger In Moscow was actually composed completly by Brad Buxer, Off The Wall, Thriller and BAD was all Quincy Jones vision, Teddy Riley was the true genius behind Dangerous etc.

It just seems like people are happy to jump at the chance to take credit away from Michael when they can.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

@analogue They're demistyfying him, which is exactly what he would not want. All of it, all the fan conjecture, seminar work, it's all taking away from Mike's "magic".

Fans will always want that, peek, and it is nice to get a peek behind the curtain, but it is also still nice to pretend MJ is still out there, enjoy something one of a kind that is the sensation of "New" Michael Jackson. The Estate actually, gets that. They are not good at quality control like Michael was, but they get that part of it. And so do most of their hired hands. They do make him feel special. That's why I think MJ would be okay with "contemporization" and the "edited" This Is It, and the like, but not probably the seminars, lots of concerts and unfinished demoes coming out. Because then you're stuck with the reality of MJ only belonging to the past and being a mortal.

The old MJ clan, the old producers, Quincy, Will I Am, Brad, other Brad, they don't get it. Maybe Teddy does. Hmm.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

didn't the basis of SIM instrumental basically come from a sonic the hedgehog soundtrack that was produced by MJ's team and Buxer?

There should really be a thread about this already. Or just Sonic in general.

A man who plays no instruments

He played instruments. He just didn't do it to virtuoso levels, and didn't want you to know about it anyway.

 

[kelley]

At the end of the day, MJ fans give MJ credit for literally everything lol. There is very little they don't give him kudos for, whether it's him or not. Unless they don't like it. Then it's "Sony's fault". There does need to be a balance.

We give him credit that is due to him.

Just because i don't blindly believe every thing people claim after he conveniently died, it doesn't mean I don't have balanced opinions.

Brads story does not add up, period.

I believe evidence and someone who changes their story is not credible.

 

[kelley]

Whether he has been able to recreate the magic of Strager In Moscow is down to your taste. He has been behind some incredible songs, including Beautiful Girl.

He says he worked on 40 songs for Michael. He was musical director for years. He worked with so many others, including Stevie Wonder. I think Brad's skills are not up for debate. I am going to go through some of the other links.

As for only speaking up after MJ is dead...the truth might be easier to say when your boss is not around. And losing millions in royalties while getting no credit for your work can hurt. So maybe he just wants to let the fans know what is really going on. Much like many of the other collaborators doing interviews after MJ's death, including Bryan Loren, who is not afraid to tell it like he sees it.

So now you're saying Brad wrote Beautiful girl, that's funny because in the video with Geraldo where brad is gushing about Michael "hearing everything in his head" he's making it pretty clear that Michael has composed that song. Credits also say Michael composed it.

I guess this is another one of his post death sudden claims.

Brad was not some child, especially in 2005. You really believe Michael was just stealing all his work for years and he just let it happen? BULL S**T.

If Michael was making him lose millions in royalties why was he still there?

he could have taken his skills and supposed songwriting genius and found someone else to work with. It's not like Michael's career was popping at the time. He was basically a pariah in the industry.

I think you just don't want to accept the fact that most of the people who were around Michael became infected with greed after his death.

 

[SmoothGangsta]

I've noticed a "let's demonise all of MJ's collaborators" thing going on within the fanbase generally recently. Very strange to me.

 

[kelley]

A man who plays no instruments but happens to be feeling bad doesn't necessarily mean he can create a piece of work like Stranger In Moscow that matches his feelings (just by the simple fact that he is feeling bad).

So it sounds like you don't know much about Mjs song writing process or his instrument abilities

In this interview from 1980 Michael denies that he can play instruments, but tito disagrees with that and says he can play piano well enough to write hits.

Michael took piano lessons as a child, theres plenty of old Jackson 5 articles where little Michael mentions he's learning the piano.

Kenny Gamble praised Michael's songwriting at just 17 years old, Michael earned his first professional songwriting credit on the song “Blues Away” and Gamble said Michael played it on the piano. And he did it all by himself.

Another witness talked about seeing Michael composing a song on the piano on the spot.

"Once he went on his knees and started playing piano in the barn. He played a few notes then began singing. It was a love song and sounded really good and he had actually written it right there in front of me. It was amazing to watch, it took him about 6 minutes. When he got up I said did you just write that? He said ´yeah, but I have forgotten it already´. Then he started looking for something else to do. No matter what his problems are, the man is a complete genius."
Robert MCGibbon

Here's what Matt Forger had to say

Jackson first wrote and recorded "Don't Be Messin'" during the Thriller sessions with engineer Brent Averill. Around this time he was working on a variety of musical ideas, including demos of "P.Y.T." and "Billie Jean." "Don't Be Messin'" features Jackson himself playing piano ("He could do more than he ever really let people know," Forger says.) He also produced, arranged, and guided many of the instrumental parts, including the cinematic strings, Jonathan Maxey's piano part in the bridge, and David Williams funky guitar licks. - -https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2012/06/the-story-behind-michael-jacksons-infectious-newly-released-song/258115/

I take that all this to mean Michael could play piano to certain extent, but because he hadn't mastered it and couldn't play perfectly he did not feel comfortable telling people he could play. He was a perfectionist after all and way more humble than people give him credit for. I don't think he was confident in his abilities, but I wish he was and he played instruments in public more.

This person who was around him in 2006/2007 said he was amazing at instruments, so it sounds like he was more comfortable letting people hear him play in his later years.

"What was amazing for me was discovering just how incredible Michael was at playing any instrument. He´d sit at the piano and play the Beatles song for us to sing along to, or get on the drums, or play guitar."
Paddy Dunning, owner of a state-art-of-studio, where MJ spent some time while in Ireland in 2006-2007

Another article about Ireland stay

"Michael had originally only intended staying in Westmeath for a month, but ended up living here for five months," says Dunning who's abiding memory of the star was how he casually displayed his immense musical genius.

"Michael was an amazing guitarist, he was incredible on the drums, he stunned everyone when he got behind the piano, but most of all, you can't overstate his singing voice." https://www.independent.ie/irish-ne...ls-special-fondness-for-ireland/26546931.html

Even if Michael couldn't play an instrument, he still composed music with his voice, there is no reason to believe he couldn't write SIM. He heard music in his head and he used his voice to mimic the instruments. It was the same with SIM. You can clearly hear the beat boxing Michael did in SIM like with so many of his other songs.

He could compose all the instruments with just his voice, here he is singing the strings in the demo for "Everybody" a song he wrote with TIto and Mike McKinney

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1278154851969630209

He could compose chords on his own too, whether on the piano or with his voice.

Here's what Rob Hoffman said.

“One morning MJ came in with a new song he had written overnight. We called in a guitar player, and Michael sang every note of every chord to him. “’Here’s the first chord, first note, second note, third note. Here’s the second chord first note, second note, third note’, etc etc. We then witnessed him giving the most heartfelt and profound vocal performance, live in the control room through an SM57,” says Hoffman.

“He would sing us an entire string arrangement, every part. Steve Porcaro once told me he witnessed MJ doing that with the string section in the room. Had it all in his head, harmony and everything. Not just little eight bar loop ideas. He would actually sing the entire arrangement into a micro-cassette recorder complete with stops and fills.”

He did not need Brad to compose Stranger in Moscow.

Rob Hoffman actually directly contradicted Brad. He said It came out of Michael's head. He said Michael sang "every note, every beat, every piece you hear on that song came from Michael's head"

Listen at 34:20,

Episode 030 – Rob Hoffman Special – The MJCast

www.themjcast.com

I recommend you listen to the whole interview with Rob. He goes into detail about all the songs and mentions what brad's involvement actually was. Unlike Brad he has no motivation to lie.

I know I couldn't.

But that's you. You are not a musical genius.

Here is a great post I stole from another site, that sums up what im trying to say perfectly

MJ had a very very very rare ability which only the greatest like Mozart or Beethoven had. Try to hear one melody in your head. Chances are you able to do that. But now try to hear two at the same time. Chances are you won't be able to. But MJ could. He could hear entire arrangements in his head, entire songs in fact and then could separate each track note by note
and sing them and tell the guitar player or the keyboard player how he wanted it to be played. This is why MJ was never much interested in playing those instruments himself, the instruments played in his head.

Michael was a genius on Mozarts level. The only difference between him and Mozart is Mozarts father made him play piano and and violin and taught him how to read and write sheet music, and Michael's father made him sing and dance they both still had the unique gift of hearing music in their heads, they just express the music differently. Mozart probably didn't know how to play every single instrument he wrote music for, but he could write out the notes he heard in his head, and Michael could sing the notes.

Michael was actually composing songs in his head even as a child. He just was not given the chance to actually have his songs created until they left Motown.

Here's a video of the Jackson brothers talking about the songs Michael was writing as a child, Even as a child Michael knew his songs were good and would sell the most.

I only hope one day Michael's genius is truly recognized for what it was. He more than just a pop star.

 

[kelley]

If I find it very strange that you're acting like turning on Michael and telling the media he didn't get credit in 05 is something Brad should have done.

Also don't really agree with the picture you're trying to paint of him here. Whenever he speaks about Michael and the time they spent working together you can feel how much love he had for him.

He may have loved Michael, but he also loves himself. I'm not saying Brad is an evil monster, Im saying that he is a flawed human being who like most people wants to be remembered when dies.

It's not an either/or situation, brad can love Michael and still desire attention and want to make a name for himself.

When it comes to the SIM credits, perhaps he does feel he should have gotten more credit, didn't the basis of SIM instrumental basically come from a sonic the hedgehog soundtrack that was produced by MJ's team and Buxer?

I typed out a long post that mentions the Sonic project and why it actually proves Brad is lying. Please go read it.

Multiple people involved with the Sonic project, have talked about Michael's involvement. Brad is the only one has tried to downplay his involvement.

All I ask is that people actually read my posts thoroughly before responding to me and trying to dispute me. That is how we can have a mature discussion.

Obviously you could say he has lied about this as well if you think he's a serial liar but I kinda doubt that.

Why? As many times as people have lied on Michael, including his own family members, I don't see why anybody should be surprised that someone who knew him would lie about him or try to get attention for themselves .

 

[kelley]

I've noticed a "let's demonise all of MJ's collaborators" thing going on within the fanbase generally recently. Very strange to me.

Im not demonizing him.

I even admitted if Brad had stuck to his original story from 2009, I'd be more inclined believe him, but he has claimed more and more of the song and changed his story all together. That is all the hallmarks of a lie.

As for the rest of the collaborators, I haven't seen any of them being criticized except Buxer, Quincy and Bryan Loren, and Loren was only criticized for his rudeness in his mjcast interview. I can understand why he's angry and bitter at Michael for not using his songs. But he's not claiming any of his songs were stolen like brad is.

I am skeptical about anyone who comes out with a story after Michael's death that contradicts what was said before. I don't care who it is or what it's about.

People used his death to get attention for themselves.

I'll give a perfect non related example.

In 2008 Maureen Mccormick mentioned she went on a date with Michael when she was 16 and he was 14

Before Michael's death she said they never kissed on the lips.

“But Steve wasn’t Maureen’s only celebrity date. When she was 16, Maureen went out with 14-year-old Michael Jackson. We’d go ice skating together and we’d hold hands,” she said. “He kissed me on the cheek. We never really kissed… I was definitely interested in him, but I think with him it was more that we were friends.”

Maureen McCormick Talks Past Drug Use & Dating Michael Jackson

Maureen McCormick was the idol of thousands of teenage girls in the ‘70s as Marcia Brady. But though she portrayed the squeaky clean beauty on the family comedy, her real life has been filled with drama. In a new interview with Access Hollywood’sBilly Bush, Maureen addressed a host of rumors...

www.nbcwashington.com

After Michael's death, all of a sudden her story changed and now she and Michael kissed on the lips.

I'm just bringing this up as an example of why we shouldn't just believe Brad, just because he says mostly positive things about Michael.

Notice Maureen isn't saying anything negative about Michael, she says he was amazing. She says nothing but positive things about him, but even though it's positive, What she said about kissing him is still a LIE. A harmless lie, but a lie nonetheless.

And what's the motive? To be remembered as a girl who dated Michael and got to kiss him. To get her name in the headlines and get some attention for herself.


What is brad's motive? To get people to bring up his name every time Stranger in Moscow is mentioned. To have his name written in all the books about Michael's music and career. To make himself more important and be remembered.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

the end of the day, MJ fans give MJ credit for literally everything lol.

Well, let's say casual fans then. The YouTube/Estate Account follower people, they unanimously do this. There's like a different air for every group, Twitter, TikTok, Instagram, Reddit, YouTube, here, etc

 

[xam]

It irks me because people don't want to give Michael credit for anything.

If we just stick to Stranger In Moscow in this example, Michael has credit on everything, which is the only thing I am questioning. Lyrics and composition. His bank balance would show that too. I think MJ claiming both is different to what really happened, but I could be wrong. I could be tricked into thinking this Brad guy deserves some credit when he doesn't deserve any.

As for the rest of the collaborators, I haven't seen any of them being criticized except Buxer, Quincy and Bryan Loren, and Loren was only criticized for his rudeness in his mjcast interview. I can understand why he's angry and bitter at Michael for not using his songs. But he's not claiming any of his songs were stolen like brad is.

Bryan Loren has claimed that his ideas have been lifted and used in many songs that were released, without credit. If you get a chance, listen to his MJ Cast interview again.

2005 would have been the perfect time for him to try and claim credit. Michael's life was in shambles, the world was against him, the media would have been on Buxers side 100%. Instead Buxer was itching to tell Geraldo what a genius Michael was.

Buxer was (again) being too nice to MJ, but then again he was working for him and he tells us Mike was his best friend. He was talking about Billie Jean, if I'm not mistaken, which he wasn't there for. He is simply being nice to his boss in front of the cameras.

Brad was not some child, especially in 2005. You really believe Michael was just stealing all his work for years and he just let it happen? BULL S**T.

He may not be a child, he may just be an adult that was willing to overlook it for a dream job allowing him to get paid well, travel all over the world and pull in all the babes he wanted, while enjoying touring with the biggest artist and enjoy MJ's friendship. I can't speak for Brad, though. I have no idea what his real motivations were or what really went on. I would never be overlooking the credits, but then again I wouldn't want asking for credit to end a friendship or a nice cushy job either! I can't tell you what Brad was most interested in.

MJ's musicianship could easily be answered if the fans saw him once or twice play any instrument on-stage. We simply don't. So we get positive stories and negative stories about Michael's chops in the studio. I simply do not know. I have heard both.

 

[kelley]

If we just stick to Stranger In Moscow in this example, Michael has credit on everything, which is the only thing I am questioning. Lyrics and composition. His bank balance would show that too. I think MJ claiming both is different to what really happened, but I could be wrong. I could be tricked into thinking this Brad guy deserves some credit when he doesn't deserve any.


Bryan Loren has claimed that his ideas have been lifted and used in many songs that were released, without credit. If you get a chance, listen to his MJ Cast interview again.

I did listen to the interview, he offered no specifics and no examples, so that could mean literally anything.

"Ideas" don't equal a composition or a song lyric.

And if Im not mistaken loren said the other collaborators took his ideas, not Michael. He very well may have been talking about Buxer. which would be hilariously ironic.

Buxer was (again) being too nice to MJ, but then again he was working for him and he tells us Mike was his best friend. He was talking about Billie Jean, if I'm not mistaken, which he wasn't there for. He is simply being nice to his boss in front of the cameras.

Why was he being too nice?

You assume he wasn't telling the truth in 2005. and is telling the truth now. I believe the opposite. He was telling the truth about Michael 2005, and is lying now.

He may not be a child, he may just be an adult that was willing to overlook it for a dream job allowing him to get paid well, travel all over the world and pull in all the babes he wanted,

If Buxer was so skilled and talented he could found another artist to work with. No one would continue working for someone that "stripped" them of credit.

while enjoying touring with the biggest artist and enjoy MJ's friendship. I can't speak for Brad, though. I have no idea what his real motivations were or what really went on. I would never be overlooking the credits, but then again I wouldn't want asking for credit to end a friendship or a nice cushy job either! I can't tell you what Brad was most interested in.

Multiple people contradict Brad's claim.

MJ's musicianship could easily be answered if the fans saw him once or twice play any instrument on-stage. We simply don't. So we get positive stories and negative stories about Michael's chops in the studio. I simply do not know. I have heard both.

But why does he need to play an instrument for you to believe he composed his music?

Can you explain that?

Have you ever seen Amadeus?

What is the difference between what Mozart is doing in this scene and the way Michael composed his music?

How is him using his voice to write the notes on a tape recorder any less legitimate than playing it on an instrument???

 

[kelley]

Just checked and did some research and confirmed Bryan Loren accused bill botrell of not giving him credit for the rap in BOW, nothing to do with Michael. Also I confirmed that Bryan Loren really does not like Brad Buxer.

LOL now that is funny.

 

[analogue]

How is him using his voice to write the notes on a tape recorder any less legitimate than playing it on an instrument??

There shouldn't be any rules on how music is created. If someone create new music by strumming on a guitar or playing on a piano then that's great. And if someone wants to create new music by using only their voice, then that's also great. One technique isn't more valuable than the other.

The whole thing of ''You need to play an instrument to be considered a real muscian and songwriter'' always comes across as really snobbish to me.

 

[kelley]

There shouldn't be any rules on how music is created. If someone create new music by strumming on a guitar or playing on a piano then that's great. And if someone wants to create new music by using only their voice, then that's also great. One technique isn't more valuable than the other.

The whole thing of ''You need to play an instrument to be considered a real muscian and songwriter'' always comes across as really snobbish to me.

It's definitely snobbish and reaks of rockism.

 

[zinniabooklover]

I can't speak for Brad, though. I have no idea what his real motivations were or what really went on.

Agreed. There is no way any of us will ever really know what the true SIM story is.

I would never be overlooking the credits, but then again I wouldn't want asking for credit to end a friendship or a nice cushy job either! I can't tell you what Brad was most interested in.

It really doesn't work like that, though. I don't know the exact arrangement that Michael had with Brad. Maybe Brad was in a salaried position, although that would be very unusual. Maybe he was on a retainer. Most songwriters and session musicians are self-employed freelancers so it would be madness to give up a songwriting credit. I'll say it again, that's your future CV you're building up. That is what will get you noticed by another superstar who might want you to work with them.

MJ's musicianship could easily be answered if the fans saw him once or twice play any instrument on-stage.

No offence but I just don't understand this. I've seen photos of Madonna onstage with a guitar. Is she really playing it? If she is, does that mean that she is a musician and Michael isn't? I'm not having a go here, I just find this genuinely confusing.

There shouldn't be any rules on how music is created. If someone create new music by strumming on a guitar or playing on a piano then that's great. And if someone wants to create new music by using only their voice, then that's also great. One technique isn't more valuable than the other.

Agreed.

I know that lots of pop musicians can't read or write musical notation but they know their musical notes and they do understand music theory. I'm not a musician or musicologist but I can understand how a musician / composer can use their understanding of consonance, dissonance, pitches, harmony etc when they are composing. I assume that the majority of musicians / composers can play at least one instrument to a high level of proficiency. That doesn't invalidate any other way of composing music. Well, not imo.

 

[SmoothGangsta]

Bryan Loren isn't exactly a trustworthy beacon of truth, either.

 

[SmoothGangsta]

Im not demonizing him.

I even admitted if Brad had stuck to his original story from 2009, I'd be more inclined believe him, but he has claimed more and more of the song and changed his story all together. That is all the hallmarks of a lie.

As for the rest of the collaborators, I haven't seen any of them being criticized except Buxer, Quincy and Bryan Loren, and Loren was only criticized for his rudeness in his mjcast interview. I can understand why he's angry and bitter at Michael for not using his songs. But he's not claiming any of his songs were stolen like brad is.

I am skeptical about anyone who comes out with a story after Michael's death that contradicts what was said before. I don't care who it is or what it's about.

People used his death to get attention for themselves.

I'll give a perfect non related example.

In 2008 Maureen Mccormick mentioned she went on a date with Michael when she was 16 and he was 14

Before Michael's death she said they never kissed on the lips.




After Michael's death, all of a sudden her story changed and now she and Michael kissed on the lips.

I'm just bringing this up as an example of why we shouldn't just believe Brad, just because he says mostly positive things about Michael.

Notice Maureen isn't saying anything negative about Michael, she says he was amazing. She says nothing but positive things about him, but even though it's positive, What she said about kissing him is still a LIE. A harmless lie, but a lie nonetheless.

And what's the motive? To be remembered as a girl who dated Michael and got to kiss him. To get her name in the headlines and get some attention for herself.


What is brad's motive? To get people to bring up his name every time Stranger in Moscow is mentioned. To have his name written in all the books about Michael's music and career. To make himself more important and be remembered.

I think we just disagree on this. I read you posts and I don't really have the same aggressive stance or think that it affects his character too much. I think it's entirely possible that he wasn't credited and let it go at the time, and has just become more annoyed about it as time has went on, which is a shame. I'm not going to act like that makes him money hungry or seeking fame of whatever, though.

The way you're presenting it it's like he's went out of his way to make it all about himself, all I've seen is him mention it when talking about the song, say that it sucks and makes him feel bad, and move on.

I guess we are looking at this from totally different angles, which is fine.

 

[zinniabooklover]

I think it's entirely possible that he wasn't credited and let it go at the time, and has just become more annoyed about it as time has went on, [...]

Fair point.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Is there not a demo of this song we can hear? That would determine some things about it I'd imagine.

 

[kelley]

Bryan Loren isn't exactly a trustworthy beacon of truth, either.

Is there a reason why Loren isn't trustworthy but buxer is?

Not saying I think he's trustworthy, Im just asking you why you deemed one credible but the other not