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The Discussion of MJ's Unreleased Tracks

Buffalo Bill not making an album has nothing to do with the quality, it's just coincidence. MJ decided on a wholly different style for Bad, in comparison to his songwriting on Thriller.

Billie Jean wouldn't fit on Bad, it wouldn't have made the record if it wasn't on Thriller. Smooth Criminal would not have gelled with Dangerous. It's just basic trend following, if it's not trendy, it's not a fitting up-tempo.
 
AlwaysThere said:
I never understood why MJ didn’t put the ‘87 mix on the 2001 reissue if it was his ideal version.
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MJ didn't really care about the project, let Sony do the selection and, for Streetwalker, Bill's mix was the most recent version of it (as per the rule of always picking the most up-to-date version of a track).
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
Buffalo Bill not making an album has nothing to do with the quality, it's just coincidence. MJ decided on a wholly different style for Bad, in comparison to his songwriting on Thriller.

Billie Jean wouldn't fit on Bad, it wouldn't have made the record if it wasn't on Thriller. Smooth Criminal would not have gelled with Dangerous. It's just basic trend following, if it's not trendy, it's not a fitting up-tempo.
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Seems kinda presumptuous for a song we haven’t yet heard, no? Songs like “The Way You Make Me Feel” and “I Just Can’t Stop Loving You” aren’t any different lyrically to anything on Thriller. Sonically, he could’ve easily just updated the sound as he did for other songs.
 
Derek1984 said:
I've thought that, but I'm not sure that should include Buffalo Bill. *I think* Buffalo Bill might have vocals from the brothers. So it that is true, it was meant for a Jacksons album. Also, we know songs like Liberian Girl could've been on Victory, but that one was obviously held back... And later did make BAD. Buffalo Bill never ended up on anything.

Based on what we know about Buffalo Bill, I think we can confirm it was so close to being finished and on Victory, that it made news in the media and Bruce did a mix on it. It must have been left off Victory at the very last second.
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Buffalo Bill does feature vocals from the brothers and was meant for Victory along with Liberian Girl. BB vocals, according to John weren't finished but mentioned there may have been reference vocals on the master tape but he wasn't sure.

I think the song made the news outlets because they were drumming up the album and getting people ready for it. My only assumption is the song didn't fit the vibe of the album or Michael probably thought someone thing else was better. Michael also thought The Toy was better than some songs on Thriller.
 
michaeljackson.nl said:
I have no idea, but they sound awesome!
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I wonder if the estate know or care about the differences between this and the released version?

Is there any way to contact the estate (Karen Langford maybe?) and let them know the fans would love this 87 mix getting released? It would be some kind of win-win situation; we'll get this mix and in return the estate retains a completely unreleased/unheard song in their vault.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
Buffalo Bill not making an album has nothing to do with the quality, it's just coincidence. MJ decided on a wholly different style for Bad, in comparison to his songwriting on Thriller.

Billie Jean wouldn't fit on Bad, it wouldn't have made the record if it wasn't on Thriller. Smooth Criminal would not have gelled with Dangerous. It's just basic trend following, if it's not trendy, it's not a fitting up-tempo.
Click to expand...
AlwaysThere said:
Seems kinda presumptuous for a song we haven’t yet heard, no? Songs like “The Way You Make Me Feel” and “I Just Can’t Stop Loving You” aren’t any different lyrically to anything on Thriller. Sonically, he could’ve easily just updated the sound as he did for other songs.
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I agree with @Mister_Jay_Tee. Billie Jean doesn't fit the style of Bad.

TWYMMF and IJCS could've fit Thriller sure, but that could've interfered with songs like BBM, PYT and TLIML since those are the most similar lyrically
 
Fuzball said:
I wonder if the estate know or care about the differences between this and the released version?

Is there any way to contact the estate (Karen Langford maybe?) and let them know the fans would love this 87 mix getting released? It would be some kind of win-win situation; we'll get this mix and in return the estate retains a completely unreleased/unheard song in their vault.
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Or they could just not release anything at all and they'll still be winning lmaoo
 
MJbr2 said:
So that corroborates the rumour that APOM didn't have elements re-recorded from the 1985 mix, they just remixed it and maybe added some new stuff in, right?
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Yes, there were very little additonal elements exclusive to the album version.

As per APOM's tracksheet:

Piano rec. September 24th, 1986
Bass comp rec. September 26th, 1986
New bass/intro rec. September 30th, 1986
Guitar rec. May 27th, 1987
 
SeriousFX said:
Yes, there were very little additonal elements exclusive to the album version.

As per APOM's tracksheet:

Piano rec. September 24th, 1986
Bass comp rec. September 26th, 1986
New bass/intro rec. September 30th, 1986
Guitar rec. May 27th, 1987
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We need the multitracks to this so we can recreate the EO/Barnes mix
 
AlwaysThere said:
Seems kinda presumptuous for a song we haven’t yet heard, no? Songs like “The Way You Make Me Feel” and “I Just Can’t Stop Loving You” aren’t any different lyrically to anything on Thriller. Sonically, he could’ve easily just updated the sound as he did for other songs.
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Perhaps but it's not any more presumptuous than assuming it's mediocre.

Those songs are not different but the difference is MJ wrote more of those than he did on Thriller. Bad is also way less R&B Than Thriller.
 
I hope Bill shares the Dangerous session calendars. Since he was there from start to finish, seeing concrete data as to when certain tracks were recorded and finished would be so interesting. There’s a lot of discourse around that era specifically as to when songs were done.
 
Bill Bottrell:
Streetwalker is a chaos in my muddled memory.
There was no SW a Hayvenhurst. None.
This version has my drum program?
The mix is Bruce, very Thriller, and the Voc recording is Bruce?
This version has no chorus?

(1986 demo leak from Brad’s laptop^)

My journals say I went to Westlake and recorded vocals Jan. 12-13, 1987 which DID have the chorus, because I never heard this without that?
Of these Westlake sessions I have zero memory?

Then jump to 1988, MJ is on BAD tour, calls me and asks me to "re-do" Streetwalker.

I spend a week at Smoketree by myself totally changing it, new tempo, new key, send to MJ, he said "Billy that's country". I thought he didn't like it, story over.

Then jump several years and I hear SW released version on YT.
I see Q listed as producer so I call Q and say I think I produced that and he says "yeah, ok".

15 years later I hear Q had a finished SW that he left off BAD and put APOM on instead.

And I'm just very confused.

Do people have the final Q version?
I don't care just curious.

(
https://twitter.com/x/status/1865888447749386566
)
 
Andymachine said:
No we will probably get a greatest hits to co incide with the new movie next year. However when it comes to concerts , new releases , I think a definete no. Maybe unoffical ones but I would love to see a Victory Tour performance , we know they have them in amazing quality hence the quality on the Thriller documentary but I think there were plans years ago to release it but it was vetoed by the brothers , probably a question of money. Though we will never know what is in these vaults and what has happened .
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No please not another greatest hits album without new unreleased content there is more than enough of that now we don't need another greatest hits album
 
michaeljackson.nl said:
Bill Bottrell:
Streetwalker is a chaos in my muddled memory.
There was no SW a Hayvenhurst. None.
This version has my drum program?
The mix is Bruce, very Thriller, and the Voc recording is Bruce?
This version has no chorus?

(1986 demo leak from Brad’s laptop^)

My journals say I went to Westlake and recorded vocals Jan. 12-13, 1987 which DID have the chorus, because I never heard this without that?
Of these Westlake sessions I have zero memory?

Then jump to 1988, MJ is on BAD tour, calls me and asks me to "re-do" Streetwalker.

I spend a week at Smoketree by myself totally changing it, new tempo, new key, send to MJ, he said "Billy that's country". I thought he didn't like it, story over.

Then jump several years and I hear SW released version on YT.
I see Q listed as producer so I call Q and say I think I produced that and he says "yeah, ok".

15 years later I hear Q had a finished SW that he left off BAD and put APOM on instead.

And I'm just very confused.

Do people have the final Q version?
I don't care just curious.

(
https://twitter.com/x/status/1865888447749386566
)
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Bill confirms there was an earlier version because years ago, he was certain SW was recorded after Bad. Of course he could've been speaking about his released mix but he never confirmed that was an earlier version

""Streetwalker" was recorded after Bad was released. I don't understand the story told about it and "Another Part of Me" it's impossible."
 
BlackAnon said:
Bill confirms there was an earlier version because years ago, he was certain SW was recorded after Bad. Of course he could've been speaking about his released mix but he never confirmed that was an earlier version

""Streetwalker" was recorded after Bad was released. I don't understand the story told about it and "Another Part of Me" it's impossible."
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I know, memory problems and all, but I find it a bit amusing how Bill said that despite there being tons of evidence to the contrary.
 
SeriousFX said:
I know, memory problems and all, but I find it a bit amusing how Bill said that despite there being tons of evidence to the contrary.
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Bill's notes says he worked on SW in January 1987 so how can he not know of a version prior to his 88 mix existing?
 
Not to turn the thread into another one of those discussions, but I am still surprised to this day MJs work methods seem to change so drastically for Invincible. He was just using what others had created, whereas imo, one of MJs greatest strengths was his ability to create timeless melodies.

Shout just doesn't sound like an MJ record, and listening to that HCW writers demo just kind of adds to the point. The whole thing could've been done in a week. Some great records, don't get me wrong, but it's missing something.
 
Bill Bottrell:

Yes. the date is right. I stayed alone at Hayvenhurst after MJ was down at Westlake with Q.
I did extra careful mixes of the important songs over a week or so. I wanted them presented in the best possible way so MJ could get his way in that situation
DATS were the main thing but I probably made simultaneous cassettes of all the BAD songs
 
dam2040 said:
Not to turn the thread into another one of those discussions, but I am still surprised to this day MJs work methods seem to change so drastically for Invincible. He was just using what others had created, whereas imo, one of MJs greatest strengths was his ability to create timeless melodies.

Shout just doesn't sound like an MJ record, and listening to that HCW writers demo just kind of adds to the point. The whole thing could've been done in a week. Some great records, don't get me wrong, but it's missing something.
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I just don't think he was fully committed to the Invincible project. It also would've helped if he leaned on one producer for the album, like he used to with Quincy Jones. Would've made the album have more cohesion and better tracks selected for the final track listing. I also think he was banking on Rodney Jerkins too much. Jerkins made some nice tracks, but he didn't come with enough strong material.

Butterflies was classic MJ, but I thought I read somewhere that MJ didn't even want to record a song like that because it sounded too much like his older stuff. That kind of mentality was wrong. It was great and there should've been more like that on the album.
 
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