Verdict Reached: AEG NOT Liable - Discussion- Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Thrill]

^^

Im of the opinion that there is no point to "competence" if it is not accompanied by morality and ethics.


MJ was detoriating for 8 weeks... ffs. 8 weeks and the jurors determined the doctor was FIT AND COMPETENT. they had the chance to review murrays competence for the entire period Murray was hired but didnt see Mj detoriating as something odd.

THE JURY INSTRUCTIONS SAID THEY (AEG) didnt had to know about propofol specific!!! So all posts about ''aeg didnt know murray was giving MJ propofol'' doesnt even matter in this context!!!!!


they jurors had to look at murrays treatment for the entire period (and not thinking of if aeg knew about the propofol). this is crazy.cant believe it. now i know why. cuz they blame MJ for his own death

 

[Petrarose]

it has been evident from the beginning and reading jurors statement in the press that this is what you all believed. Blame Michael for his death.

Oh dear. If the jury went to the end where they found AEG Liable, they would still have to put a percentage of responsibility on Michael. Michael chose this guy, Micahel had him buy prof, Michael told him to give it to him (unless you think AEG told Muarry to do that), Michael knew he was not well when he said he was, Michel did not call another doctor to check him out. This means grown Micahel had a choice in who he hired & what he asked the doctor to do. Unfortunately it led to his death, but he still had a choice in his decision to use prof to gain sleep, which led to unfortunate results.

I really think you have to read over those jury instructions and all the tweets from day 1.

 

[passy001]

I'm of the opinion that Micheal definitely has some blame for his death. I don't see how you can believe otherwise? CM was giving him propofol at his request, not against his will. MJ was repeatedly warned about how dangerous it was to use propofol to 'sleep'. He ignored those warnings. I can't understand the idea that MJ has zero responsibility for his death, I really can't.

If he was injecting himself with propofol every night without CM involved, I would say he is 100% to blame. Since CM was in the picture, I think that 100% is now shared between 2 people. How much blame on each side? Who knows. There isn't a formula for this type of thing. But seeing as how CM was doing what MJ wanted, and seeing as how CM wasn't qualified to be doing what he was doing, my gut tells me to just split the blame 50/50. I really don't know how else to see it.

we've been singing this chorus to death. some fans are looking for a scapegoat and somehow they see AEG as the perfect target given that they are loaded with cash.

 

[Petrarose]

Thrill TII does not show Micheal dying before our eyes. TII shows Michael creating, performing, & talking. Michael's dying process was in his bedroom. If you look at exactly how Shaffer said Michael died, then you will see that during TII Micahel was NOT dying. I don't know where people get these ideas from. If we go by your idea then people looking at me now would be watching me dying, since eventually I will die anyway. Everyday would be part of the dying process, since I deteriorate each day as part of the aging process.

 

[Petrarose]

^^

Im of the opinion that there is no point to "competence" if it is not accompanied by morality and ethics.


MJ was detoriating for 8 weeks... ffs. 8 weeks and the jurors determined the doctor was FIT AND COMPETENT. they had the chance to review murrays competence for the entire period Murray was hired but didnt see Mj detoriating as something odd.

THE JURY INSTRUCTIONS SAID THEY (AEG) didnt had to know about propofol specific!!! So all posts about ''aeg didnt know murray was giving MJ propofol'' doesnt even matter in this context!!!!!


they jurors had to look at murrays treatment for the entire period (and not thinking of if aeg knew about the propofol). this is crazy.cant believe it. now i know why. cuz they blame MJ for his own death

You still don't get it. Your Opinion about having morality & ethics is as you say your opinion. The jury did not get instructions telling them to consider American Morality & Ethics when determining Question 2.

You have to remember what the jury is asked to do based on Specific guidelines. Because you are not doing that you want to cry and you are not understanding the system.

 

[Thrill]

Thrill TII does not show Micheal dying before our eyes. TII shows Michael creating, performing, & talking. Michael's dying process was in his bedroom. If you look at exactly how Shaffer said Michael died, then you will see that during TII Micahel was NOT dying. I don't know where people get these ideas from. If we go by your idea then people looking at me now would be watching me dying, since eventually I will die anyway. Everyday would be part of the dying process, since I deteriorate each day as part of the aging process.

the side effects of the treatment by the incredibly competent and fit doctor did affect mj during rehearsals didnt it???? (not talking about what was shown in the movie)

 

[qbee]

im talking about incidents at set that wasnt filmed or not included in the movie at all. like what kenny described. thats what im talking about.

Michael rambling, trembling, obsessing, talking to God, being cold, shivering, not able to do his spins, not able to sing and dance at the same time, not being able to Eat for himself but needed assistance by kenny, being wrapped up in blankets...


what more do you want me to say??

Juror # 27 didnt say the movie made them ignore what was stated in actual testimony. In fact stated they felt Kenny O testimony was truthful and hearfelt. They also didn't say the movie had any impact on how they answered question 2 about Murray being competent to do the job he was hired to do.

The fact Murray was negligent behind AEGs back doesn't mean he wasn't capable or competent to do what he was hired for. The fact he didn't call in a specialist is factored under his own negligence . He was certainly competent enough to know one was needed. Now being reasonable I would surmise Michael didn't want a specialist involved either. He had already turned down being offered special help for his insomnia. The fact Dr Murray continued to treat MJ as he did without one was his own negligence not incompetence. (There is a difference being confused here) .. because he knew better. He was certainly competent to do what was right and ethical and he chose not to do it behind everyones back. That was his own negligence not incompetence to do what he was hired for.

Now it is not unreasonable for the Jury to see it this way as well. The fact you don't see it the same way as the Jury doesn't make their understanding or answer to question 2 wrong.

 

[qbee]

Mod hat on :chef:
There is no reason to be rude sarcastic or insulting when replying to Juror #27 with (wow. really Smh etc etc) like they were stupid for not seeing things your way. Please dont do that. You are welcome to disagree or to your opinions but please be respectful when replying to one another. Thanks

 

[Thrill]

You have to remember what the jury is asked to do based on Specific guidelines. Because you are not doing that you want to cry and you are not understanding the system.

you and several other members should also now realize that the jurors had the choice to look at murrays treatment for the entire time period and not only from the time he was hired (may 1). Ive seen maaany post here defending the verdict saying the jurors could only answer question 2 at the time murray was hired, but that is incorrect. the juror has now confirmed they viewed murrays treatment of mj for the entire period he was hired. i wonder if those posters will change their minds now or not. i guess not because their hate for the family is so thick that they dont care.

but if you really defend murrays treatment of michael for the 8 weeks he was hired and also see him as competent and fit then i have nothing more to say.

remember, per jury instructions, aeg didnt have to know about propofol specific.

 

[Aquarius]

Exactly. AEG were not Michael's parents, and as a grown man he has responsibility for his own health care. Let's not forget that AEG was accommodating Michael's wishes by hiring CM, they didn't just go find a random doctor and force him on MJ.

If after the June 20th meeting AEG had said "You know what, Michael? We know that you are saying you are fine, and we know that your own doctor says you are fine, but we really feel like we know better and so we will be removing your chosen doctor for one that we think is better", do you honestly think that would have been OK? First of all, it is not their place to choose MJ's doctor. Then they would be going directly against what MJ himself is telling them. To ask any more of AEG at that point is unreasonable.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I don't comprehend why some don't understand those basic points. Unfortunately, Michael took Conrad as his doctor and no one had the right to impose a doctor he didn't wish to have. Conrad was Michael's choice. Conrad failed as a human and as a doctor, and Michael paid for Conrad's mistakes and arrogance.

Blaming AEG for Conrad's actions is not just.

 

[passy001]

^^

Im of the opinion that there is no point to "competence" if it is not accompanied by morality and ethics.


MJ was detoriating for 8 weeks... ffs. 8 weeks and the jurors determined the doctor was FIT AND COMPETENT. they had the chance to review murrays competence for the entire period Murray was hired but didnt see Mj detoriating as something odd.

THE JURY INSTRUCTIONS SAID THEY (AEG) didnt had to know about propofol specific!!! So all posts about ''aeg didnt know murray was giving MJ propofol'' doesnt even matter in this context!!!!!


they jurors had to look at murrays treatment for the entire period (and not thinking of if aeg knew about the propofol). this is crazy.cant believe it. now i know why. cuz they blame MJ for his own death

Unfortunately Murray treatment of MJ entailed the administration of propofol and other anesthetic drugs. this ultimately led to his death. even the coroner acknowledged MJ as being healthy for his age.

What I find funny is that, you speak of MJ deteriorating yet say nothing about the actions MJ took to address it. If i see a doctor and my conditions deteriorate, I would definitely seek a second opinion. but MJ kept telling everyone that he's ok. so i don't understand why aeg should be blamed.

 

[Petrarose]

the side effects of the treatment by the incredibly competent and fit doctor did affect mj during rehearsals didnt it???? (not talking about what was shown in the movie)

^^YOU ONLY KNOW THIS IN HINDSIGHT, don't you see?

OK this is the last communication to you. I will not go in a circle, saying the same thing over & over. It is more interesting looking at the points the juror made and asking questions and debating.

 

[Petrarose]

Ivy now that you posted the juror's certificate, can someone copy it and use in another forum as a juror? I did not like the idea of it being in the thread.

 

[Thrill]

What I find funny is that, you speak of MJ deteriorating yet say nothing about the actions MJ took to address it. If i see a doctor and my conditions deteriorate, I would definitely seek a second opinion. but MJ kept telling everyone that he's ok. so i don't understand why aeg should be blamed.

"Like the old Indian proverb says, do not judge a man until you've walked 2 moons in his moccosins".

i think i know why mj told everyone he was ok. per Kenny Ortegas words, Michael was afraid they would pull the plug and take everything away from him. he would be in more debt and it would be a pr-disaster. we all know that.

mj was afraid they would cancel the shows so thats why he told everyone he was ok

 

[Thrill]

^^YOU ONLY KNOW THIS IN HINDSIGHT, don't you see?

NOO its not in HINDSIGHT!!!! Its happening irl, right there infront of everybody. REMEMBER they (aeg) didnt had to know it was PROPOFOL that caused it. all they had to know and see was MJ detoriating which he WAS judging by all emails and other communcations.

 

[ivy]

I'm going to second the following..

Mod hat on :chef:
Also there is no reason to be rude sarcastic or insulting when replying to Juror #27 with (wow. really Smh etc etc) like they were stupid for not seeing things your way. please dont do that. You are welcome to disagree or to your opinions but please be respectful when replying. Thanks

We all realize that this is an heated discussion topic but some posts are bordering on being rude. Jurors from the first moment they talked to the media have stated that they realize that there will be people that agree and disagree with their verdict. I believe we all realize some people on this forum don't agree with the verdict as well but there's no need to be rude in replies. Sometimes agreeing to disagree is a better choice. and honestly at this time arguing about the verdict is not really productive. It's done, the trial is over, the verdict has been determined. So arguing isn't going to bring much to the table anymore, so perhaps the focus should be on trying to understand the verdict.

 

[Victory22]

it has been evident from the beginning and reading jurors statement in the press that this is what you all believed. Blame Michael for his death.

I don't blame Michael for his death I just think it's sad that he was given such horrible care and bad medical advice for his insomnia. More than one doctor started him down this dangerous path and I think the doc's gave him a false sense of safety. Murray knew better and he was the one with the medical training not Michael so I put the majority of the blame on him.

 

[Petrarose]

I already see twisting or misrepresenting what was said by the juror. This is the same thing Michael talked about, which is why he did not like giving interviews. Your words are misrepresented to fit a idea someone wants to project.

 

[Thrill]

So arguing isn't going to bring much to the table anymore, so perhaps the focus should be on trying to understand the verdict.

i came to terms and understood the verdict when it was first announced. but now when the juror has said they had the possibility to determine if murray was fit and competent based on the entire period of time murray was hired, im really shocked at how they came up with that conclusion, esp since aeg didnt needed to know about propofol specific.

they all saw mj was detoriating, they (aeg) was alerted by several different people that something was off with mj (rambling & missing rehearsals), meeting was booked where they informed what they expected of both mj and murray, dileo asking for a bloodtest and countless of other stories shared during testimony.

the doctor that was suppose to take care of mj failed miserably. his treatment lead to mj detoriating and how on earth can the jurors say he was fit and competent???? kenny suspected the doctor.

 

[B__Marco]

this is an easy one, even I can answer to that one. you are talking about hindsight, this case was about foreseeability.

How about all the warning emails, including Brancas' one ?
AEG saw distress , nothing was done, apart forcing MJ on stage in any way....they had no time and $ to waste waiting for MJ and getting proper care for MJ...CM , with his "methods" was fine...AEG is liable, no way out..AEG did not cleared his hands at all with this verdict .. this is not the end

 

[passy001]

"Like the old Indian proverb says, do not judge a man until you've walked 2 moons in his moccosins".

i wish there were more compassion and understanding for michael at this board.

i think i know why mj told everyone he was ok. per Kenny Ortegas words, Michael was afraid they would pull the plug and take everything away from him. he would be in more debt and it would be a pr-disaster. we all know that.

mj was afraid they would cancel the shows so thats why he told everyone he was ok

so you do agree that MJ was hiding his struggles from AEG? and how is that AEG fault? and how is AEG supposed to magically figure them out?

Plus, compassion does not mean being in denial. you must also acknowledge the facts. MJ had full control of the doctor who was treating him and was giving specific instructions to inject him with all kinds of anesthetic drugs. AEG never instructed CM to do all those things, including deviating from the basic standards of care. those responsibilities fall entirely on CM.

AEG in the end was simply accommodating MJ wishes, he brought onboard his own doctor and AEG was footing the bills with the expectation of recouping from the proceeds of the concert. they had no rights whatsoever to interfere in the relationship between MJ and Murray.

 

[marebear]

I think if AEG had said to Michael that Murray needed to go that Michael would have fought that. He wanted Murray for a specific reason.

 

[B__Marco]

Yes, it was still a decision even if he was being pressured. He could have just as easily decided not to give MJ propofol.

If there was pressure or a conflict of interest, then it was up to CM to choose, "Do I risk my career and freedom by violating my duty as a Dr., or do I do the right thing and refuse to break my Hippocratic Oath?" He made that decision, and I do not see that AEG's pressure was ever so great to say that it alone is what caused him to act unethically.

The end is that CM decided to do wrong/go against oat (under clear debt pressure... I have a family ? I have to pay your rent and bills? what if they tell me that they pay my salary and I have to do what told otherwise no $ for your bills?) and AEG was / is liable for CM wrongdoing because they hired him, as your verdict of hiring said.

Supervisors exist to check proper work of their employee and remove liability from the company to check if their employee do the right job. AEG did nothing in that sense. IMO AEG is liable

 

[Aquarius]

what are you talking about? KJ lawyers also checked all the footages of TII and could not find anywhere where MJ is shown poorly. in fact one of the lawyers stated that MJ looked good even when he was having a bad day. something to that effect.

I'm almost sure it was one of Conrad's attorneys.

 

[Thrill]

so you do agree that MJ was hiding his struggles from AEG? and how is that AEG fault? and how is AEG supposed to magically figure them out?

this is a complex question. id say both yes and no to this question. he showed up at rehearsals and rambling, being cold and shivering knowing perfectly fine that people would see him in that state.
on the other hand, he obviously wanted to tell everyone he was ok because he was scared they would cancel on him.

AEG never instructed CM to do all those things, including deviating from the basic standards of care. those responsibilities fall entirely on CM.

yes absolutely. however that this was going on for 8 weeks (!!!!) and mj detoriating for each day should have alarmed aeg even more. murray was NOT fit and competent which was more evident for each day.

they had no rights whatsoever to interfere in the relationship between MJ and Murray.

just that aeg had the right to fire the doctor without mjs consent and they made him in charge of rehearsals just those small details.

 

[Victory22]

"Like the old Indian proverb says, do not judge a man until you've walked 2 moons in his moccosins".

i wish there were more compassion and understanding for michael at this board.

i think i know why mj told everyone he was ok. per Kenny Ortegas words, Michael was afraid they would pull the plug and take everything away from him. he would be in more debt and it would be a pr-disaster. we all know that.

mj was afraid they would cancel the shows so thats why he told everyone he was ok

Well this is interesting because what happened to the claim by some that Michael didn't want to do the shows and only signed on to do ten? If what you say is true wouldn't Michael be happy if AEG pulled the plug? I have nothing but compassion for Michael as I'm sure we all do.

 

[B__Marco]

This is for juror #27

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQZSh4eM77Q&feature=share

and there are plenty of proofs about how CM was pressured by AEG to breach his contract and go against Oath ....

 

[qbee]

I'm almost sure it was one of Conrad's attorneys.

But Conrads attorney has nothing to do with this trial. (whether they saw it or not) All the TII footage was shown to the judge, katherine and AEG attorneys to establish if it was relevant to be shown in the trial. All agreed it wasn't needed.

 

[Juror#27]

i came to terms and understood the verdict when it was first announced. but now when the juror has said they had the possibility to determine if murray was fit and competent based on the entire period of time murray was hired, im really shocked at how they came up with that conclusion, esp since aeg didnt needed to know about propofol specific.

They didn't need to know about propofol, but they needed to know that MJ was being put in danger by CM. If they didn't know that, then how can they be held liable?

So then you might say, well since AEG saw MJ sick a few times and got some concerned emails, that should have alerted them to remove CM. I disagree. The best doctor in the world can not prevent a patient from becoming ill. If the mere act of a patient becoming ill while under a doctor's care means that that doctor is unfit or incompetent, then one could say that every doctor is incompetent and go down that crazy road. At that point you lose grip on evidence and reason, and land in the realm of speculation and revisionist history.

Yes, there were concerns raised to AEG about MJ's health, but not one of those concerns was "Hey, Michael's doctor is over here doing dangerous stuff to MJ, please advise". Because no one besides MJ and CM knew what they were doing every night. Not Kenny, Travis, Karen, nobody knew. And since AEG was even more removed from MJ than all those people, how in the world can you say that they are the ones liable for what he did in private?

 

[Lena Lucy]

One thing that I will never do is blame Michael for his own death. The problem is not the propofol, the problem is that Michael was not being supervised while he was under anethesia. Conrad Murray was supposed to be watching his patient, not on the phone making calls to his girlfriends. Conrad Murray abandoned his patient.