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Victory was Michael's biggest mistake

djlukesw said:
I believe that Michael should have never listened to his parents to work with his brothers in 1984. He was at his absolute peak at that time. He just created Thriller, which became the biggest selling album, his music videos and the Motown 25 special were huge and he was extremely popular. Tabloids started to mock him, but not nearly as much as they did after 1985. He won all those grammy awards, he was good-looking, mysterious and cool at the same time and had a very creative time.
We don't know for sure what he would have done in 84 if he had refused his mother's request, but I am sure the outcome would have been better. Imagine a Thriller World Tour with all the energy he had. Michael could have become even bigger that he was and continue from there on.

I think the album Victory was a huge disappointment to his fans and to critics. Nobody cared for any of the songs, except maybe for State of Shock (which he could have released as a single while touring Thriller). His gigantic success of Thriller was slowed down by the Victory album and the tour. He wasn't giving his all, he didn't like the tour. He let down Europe and too much time passed until the release of Bad. His flame was still big in 87 of course, but not as big as it was in 83. He became freakier in the public eye and obviously had a hard time building on the success of the previous album. I think he missed the perfect time and suffered from that for the rest of his life (artistically). He always wanted to get back to who he was in 1983 and that never worked out. And of course he wouldn't have burned his head if he didn't work with his brothers.

I don't really want this to be a what if thread, I just want to point out that in my eyes he did his biggest mistake in his career here and never recovered from that. I think this was worse than some other artistic choices he made (e.g. Invincible, MGM concerts, lypsync etc.)
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why did the tablolids mock him? :( also i was thinking of this; if you were a dedicated mj fan, wouldnt you want to see him in any way, shape, or form? (the victory tour) even if it was a flop, they still got to see mj!
 
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Of course you want to see him either way. Every concert is better than no concert. I think he just missed the perfect moment to split from his brothers.
 
Seeing how the 1987 leg of the Bad Tour was very similar to the Victory tour with a few songs from Bad, I think a Thriller tour wouldn't have been that different than the Victory Tour đź‘€
 
People say Michael hated the Victory Tour and was forced/guilt tripped into doing it but Taj Jackson has said Michael enjoyed the tour and had nothing but good things to say about it. Maybe Taj is blinded by nostalgia? Or does he not want to say anything negative about the tour because his dad Tito was part of it? But Maybe Michael did have a good time and talks of him hating the tour have been over blown.
 
analogue said:
People say Michael hated the Victory Tour and was forced/guilt tripped into doing it but Taj Jackson has said Michael enjoyed the tour and had nothing but good things to say about it. Maybe Taj is blinded by nostalgia? Or does he not want to say anything negative about the tour because his dad Tito was part of it? But Maybe Michael did have a good time and talks of him hating the tour have been over blown.
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Two things can be true.
 
If the brothers would've took time to collaborate and find a clear direction for the album, I feel it could've been their Thriller but with Michael already tired from recording, I don't think he truly put much effort into it. He was also in his " I don't want to be overexposed" era. They recorded a lot of songs but were all solo songs with each other on background vocals
 
BlackAnon said:
Yeah he did but I think he meant the tour didn’t help his career that much…..it mostly benefitted the brothers. Michael would’ve drawn that crowd with or without them but for Michael, it was probably just another show.
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If it was just another show, why did MJ spend all that money filming a lot of concert with 16 and 35mm film? It also laid the groundwork for a lot of his choreography that he would use for the rest of his career albeit with slight variations. If it wasn't for all the arguments he had with his brothers and family at the time I truly think it could have been his best tour.
 
Smh we need a true victory tour documentary with everyone involved with real true facts about the entire thing & THE 40TH ANNIVERSARY IS THE PREFECT TIME but branca is still ceo so....I dont expect Jack shit from him smh WHY LORD WHY!
 
flight85 said:
If it was just another show, why did MJ spend all that money filming a lot of concert with 16 and 35mm film? It also laid the groundwork for a lot of his choreography that he would use for the rest of his career albeit with slight variations. If it wasn't for all the arguments he had with his brothers and family at the time I truly think it could have been his best tour.
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That's why I said he gave his best effort. MJ was rarely half hearted. He benefitted little from it because clearly he had those ideas in mind, if anything they took away from the Bad Tour mystique. I do think victory is a cool show though, in many ways his best.
 
flight85 said:
If it was just another show, why did MJ spend all that money filming a lot of concert with 16 and 35mm film? It also laid the groundwork for a lot of his choreography that he would use for the rest of his career albeit with slight variations. If it wasn't for all the arguments he had with his brothers and family at the time I truly think it could have been his best tour.
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Michael was going to spend that money anyway.....filming shows wasn't new for him and Victory for sure wasn't his first rodeo
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
That's why I said he gave his best effort. MJ was rarely half hearted. He benefitted little from it because clearly he had those ideas in mind, if anything they took away from the Bad Tour mystique. I do think victory is a cool show though, in many ways his best.
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Agreed. The Victory tour might have the best stage design to me....the lighting, the props, it looked so clean
 
I don't mind the Victory Tour but I can't believe the album is such a downer.. Maybe the brothers screwed it up by wanting to feature more on it or Michael himself didn't want to participate, but to put out an album with so little top material, mediocre production and most of all with hardly any songs involving the lead singer who happens to be the biggest entertainer of the moment.. smh

Michael must have had much better songs at the time, did he save them for Bad or was he thinking of doing a follow up on Thriller sooner?
 
Yeah the album truly sucks , I think Michael was not interested at all and that Victory was beneath him.

It was basically just a side project for him hence the lack of quality tracks and contribution.

With the tour it was like he was doing his brothers and family a favour before finally cutting ties and declaring he was a solo artist and that's it now.
 
Victorious said:
I don't mind the Victory Tour but I can't believe the album is such a downer.. Maybe the brothers screwed it up by wanting to feature more on it or Michael himself didn't want to participate, but to put out an album with so little top material, mediocre production and most of all with hardly any songs involving the lead singer who happens to be the biggest entertainer of the moment.. smh

Michael must have had much better songs at the time, did he save them for Bad or was he thinking of doing a follow up on Thriller sooner?
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What you hear on Victory is solo material brought in to be worked on. Each brother submitted about 4 or 5 solo songs and added each other to them.

Dirty Diana and Liberian Girl are from 1983 while Another Part of Me is 1984 but outside of Liberian Girl, there's no confirmation DD and APOM were submitted for Victory. Instead, we get State of Shock, which is a Thriller outtake essentially and Be Not Always from 1979

Michael planned a follow up to Thriller that was supposed to be released possibly in 1984 that was a concept album. Be Not Always was one of the songs he was going to use along with The Life of Chico, Little Susie, Thank You for Life and a few others
 
I always found it very odd that Buffalo Bill was pulled from the final track listing. Frank DiLeo even mentions it in Rolling Stone just before the album was released.
 
The concept album is also odd because it never would've charted well.
 
mj_frenzy said:
It was also confirmed by Gary Hearne (Michael Jackson's personal chauffeur at the time) who testified in his sworn deposition about that.

Gary Hearne, for a period of about 30 days, would take the singer there at night (to sleep in the same bed with the boy) and he would pick him up in the morning when the boy went to school.
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If this chain of information can be checked and further validated as being true,then it might be obvious what kind of "relationship" there was between the two,if one really wishes to dive into the story..and I'm afraid that it has never resumed to a simple friendship,but this is just my take on it overall and nothing more,I admit..
What do I know after all,I've always limited myself to Michael Jackson's "art" and nothing more.. but it's just that a simple analogy would solve the puzzle here pretty much,if one were to replace Michael Jackson with the average heterosexual male and the likes of Jordan Chandler with their girlfriend...but I shall stop there,I suppose,as this might be turning into something overly controversial for no reason at the end of day,so there you go.
đź’ś
 
t1mber said:
Seriously? Again? Have you ever been reading the documents, dear "fan"? Or are you an alter ego of DR?

Q Okay. And it's my understanding it was at least a month's worth of nights in a row that you took him there, correct? 30 days?
A I remember that was the one of the headlines in the paper about that testimony. That's why I remember the number. I think the question I was asked was my best estimate of the number of times. And I said it could have been 20, 40. I don't, I didn't know.

Q Okay.
A I was working seven days a week and the days just kind of ran together.

So in the depositions Gary Hearne said that he didn't know and that he had just read it in the newspapers (the usual tabloids).
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what seems to be more relevant to this case:what apparently happened behind closed doors or how often did it actually take place,in your view?
excuse my sudden intervention,nonetheless,but I shall stop,at this point..đź’ś
 
BlackAnon said:
Dirty Diana and Liberian Girl are from 1983 while Another Part of Me is 1984 but outside of Liberian Girl, there's no confirmation DD and APOM were submitted for Victory. Instead, we get State of Shock, which is a Thriller outtake essentially and Be Not Always from 1979
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"Another Part of Me" was recorded in 1985 along with "We Are Here to Change the World" for the Captain EO movie, released the following year in 1986.
 
I could have sworn there's footage of him recording those two songs in 1985. :unsure:
 
Derek1984 said:
I always found it very odd that Buffalo Bill was pulled from the final track listing. Frank DiLeo even mentions it in Rolling Stone just before the album was released.
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I wonder why it didn't make the final cut. Interestingly, John Barnes didn't know BB was further worked on past Encino.
 
flight85 said:
Where did the inspiration for APOM come from?
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Another bit from John. They started work on APOM in January 1984 but didn't finish it until the last part of Victory's album session

"Liberian Girl and Another Part of Me were pre Synclavier done during the last third of Victory and way before Bad's writing and development phase." - John Barnes
 
BlackAnon said:
Another bit from John. They started work on APOM in January 1984 but didn't finish it until the last part of Victory's album session

"Liberian Girl and Another Part of Me were pre Synclavier done during the last third of Victory and way before Bad's writing and development phase." - John Barnes
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All the vocal and instrumental tracks except the Synclavier on both Liberian Girl and Another Part of Me were recorded in 1984, way before the start of Bad.
 
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