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Was Michael guilty of being self-referential?

Mister_Jay_Tee

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In my opinion, no, he was not, not for a while. Every project was unique, had a unique flair, and a new imagery. Even with similar concepts, you felt very strong approaches to a new angle of looking at it.

I'm sure many people will say his last albums, was the start of it, and to a certain extent, they. I felt it was subtle enough mostly though. The video vision for YRMW, maybe was too much like prior videos. The HIStory album cover could be seen as a nod, or a homage. But it was still very broad.

Overall, he gets many points for originality.
 
The problem is that Michael Jackson's albums started to become calculated and predictable after a certain point.

For example, predictable songs with rehashed themes (about media/press, about being a victim, about environment, about social issues, and so on) began to tire many listeners.

Or even his formula of having one rock song on each new album remained the same until his 'Invincible' album.
 
mj_frenzy said:
The problem is that Michael Jackson's albums started to become calculated and predictable after a certain point.

For example, predictable songs with rehashed themes (about media/press, about being a victim, about environment, about social issues, and so on) began to tire many listeners.

Or even his formula of having one rock song on each new album remained the same until his 'Invincible' album.
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true, but the HIStory era had three rock songs. Come Together, D.S. and Morphine.
 
mj_frenzy said:
The problem is that Michael Jackson's albums started to become calculated and predictable after a certain point.

For example, predictable songs with rehashed themes (about media/press, about being a victim, about environment, about social issues, and so on) began to tire many listeners.

Or even his formula of having one rock song on each new album remained the same until his 'Invincible' album.
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That doesn't answer the question of Michael Jackson being self-referential. And also this is mostly your opinion.
 
I think every artist is self referential to some point. Everybody has a theme or way of working that’s works best for him personally. In case of Michael it also continually brought commercial success. It was also partly put on him by the higher ups, I think they demanded pop albums while Michael had more in his locker that never materialized.

The one song he never got back to with new tracks was beat it which is surprising because in combination with its video it was truly meaningful with a great message. He is telling me, to not be macho. How far ahead of time is that! This were the 80s you know, where men were the heroes in huge action films and good looking guys got the girls in teen films.

I would have liked him exploring this theme more instead of an endless stream of change the world or media hate songs.
I also like the stuff he (co) wrote on Destiny. The more down to earth Michael had some good ideas and momentum in his writing late 70s/early 80s
 
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Yes. Michael Jackson was self-referential, so what? That's not bad! I actually see it as an option of improving your own ideas! Lol, 60% of Michael songs are about love! So from the beginning of his career he was already self-referenial? Guys, guys look! The point is that being self-referential is not awful thing, if you do it CORRECTLY! For example a lot of really populare artists make a lot of boring referential music. I agree, that this is a bad thing. But if Michael decided to make song with theme, he ulready used, he always tried to make it in a new improving way. Let me give you an example, The Way You Make Me Feel and You Rock My World - 2 similiar songs with same idea, but one is good and the second one is perfect. Michael always tried to surpass himself! And in my opinion he absolutely succeeded!
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I think Mike maybe had a recipe or formula he knew worked, that he'd sometimes revert to. But aside from YRMW video, comparisons with Dangerous and Smooth Criminal, I don't think it was ever so overt that it'd be a rehash
 
Being self referential? Depends when..
The Quincy Jones/Jackson split increased indeed this mindset, instead of being artistically influenced he gave the exact direction to follow to Teddy Riley, Bill Bottrell, Jimmy Jam, etc..it's a choice, sometimes it paid off great but sometimes it became too predictable
 
Self reverence imo would be

Sampling his previous work directly (Hollywood Tonight Throwback Mix)

Videos with past clips

Distinctly calling back to the old songs, the old fashioned way

Literally calling himself by name (Breaking News)

And he did not do that a lot.

I don't consider the lyrical themes to be referential. That's talking about originality, which is another discussion.

I would only say that if he literally made (Part 2) to songs, by name explicitly. Having a common well of topic is just about inspiration.
 
filmandmusic said:
He did a call back to ABC on work that body.
Rap segments in his songs often feature his name or a song’s name
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Yeah, I was gonna mention Work That Body. But you see the way that one stayed in the drafts

There's also subtle, very subtle, samples of other songs (In The Closet < Scream)

I will admit this wrong interpretation of the subject has got me curious now. Thriller has always felt, weightier, than most of the other records. Am I the only one? Billie Jean, WBSS, Human Nature, they all feel like the peak of creativity. Why does the rest always have to measure up. A song like Hollywood Tonight or Earth Song has way more depth than Billie Jean, so what is the divide about.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
Yeah, I was gonna mention Work That Body. But you see the way that one stayed in the drafts

There's also subtle, very subtle, samples of other songs (In The Closet < Scream)

I will admit this wrong interpretation of the subject has got me curious now. Thriller has always felt, weightier, than most of the other records. Am I the only one? Billie Jean, WBSS, Human Nature, they all feel like the peak of creativity. Why does the rest always have to measure up. A song like Hollywood Tonight or Earth Song has way more depth than Billie Jean, so what is the divide about.
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Well, Hollywood Tonight is better than Billie Jean. That's obvious
 
And he wrote his lyrics in such a way that i have always been in awe of that.
Fab thread. I miss him.
 
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