Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

SoCav said:

Yet many here are happy to blame Quincy, Rod Temperton or Randy Jackson without proof.

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krikzil said:

Without proof? Temperton has already refused to allow material; Quincy has filed a lawsuit; and Randall is still attempting to oust Branca 6 years later.

Given this, it's not a stretch to come to such a conclusion. (And I'm not "blaming" anyone; merely stating that there in all likelihood are other reasons than just the Executors being meanies for why some stuff isn't being released.)

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Allow me to add to that "proof".

This is what Quincy claimed in his lawsuit "Jones be given the first opportunity to re-edit or re-mix any of the master recordings, that the coupling of master recordings with other recordings required his prior written consent and that he be given producer credit for each of the master recordings. The deal also entitled the producer to additional compensation -- including upfront payment and a "backend" percentage -- in the event of remixed masters."

So it means he is saying any release that includes original songs + additional songs requires Quincy's written consent. He needs to be offered first right to remix the songs and he wants double the payment. Given the lawsuit is still ongoing, it is not a stretch to argue that Quincy situation could have been a factor why we aren't seeing any remixes or OTW being coupled with new songs.

On December 15, 2015- less than a month ago- Randy Jackson gave a declaration in a lawsuit referring to Branca as "the devil" and questioning the validity of the will and executors. It's common sense to think that he most probably wouldn't want to work with "the devil". That's of course if there were any plans to release a Jacksons concert. If not, this becomes irrelevant.

I agree with krizkil that most posts didn't blame anyone, just merely stated that there might be other factors in play here that affected the OTW release and we can't be sure. Honestly I find it logical to think that people that have issues with Estate can be a factor in the release. It's quite naive to think that one moment they would sue the Estate, call the executors "the devil" and then happily work with them the next minute.

I'm not sure what kind of "proof" you are looking for. Parties saying "I'm/He is the reason"? That probably wouldn't happen. But if a 2010 article from a Sony exec can be used as a "proof" that Executors are lying in 2015, Quincy Jones and Randy Jackson's own lawsuit & statement from even more recent times can be used as "proof" that they have a bad blood towards the Estate hence could be a factor here.

SoCav said:

None of the things you mention are, as far as we know, directly related to this Off The Wall project. They could be, but we do not know.

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As far as Quincy goes I'll state that it's related to OTW. Quincy complained about Bad 25 in his lawsuit. He complained about all the songs he did being used on TII, Cirque projects and so on. Given he worked on OTW, Quincy's complaint would definitely cover OTW. It's illogical to think that Quincy would complain about the Bad 25 anniversary release but he wouldn't complain if a similar release (remix + addition of new demos) were done for OTW.

Maybe its just p.r interns of them saying we dont have alot of footage. When either infact they do but dont want to say we wanna drag things out aslong as poss before we release the good stuff or they dont want to say we have xy and and z but p,q and r are been asses and wont give permission. Hardly sounds good if they come out and say either hence the statement we have now

SoCav said:

He says that they are "plowing through everything to understand what they got" with regards to "great stuff from around every time period [in Jackson's career]." So no, they had not archived everything that is in the vault from Michael's entire career.

But he is more specific about Off The Wall, saying they have fascinating and remarkable stuff in the vaults "around that record", and that the outtakes (from that ablum) "are fantastic." And the article, which seems entirely based on interviews with Branca and Stringer, further states the reissue will contain a 'trove of new, exclusive material'.


None of the things you mention are, as far as we know, directly related to this Off The Wall project. They could be, but we do not know.

The only thing we know for sure is that the Estate's statement, with regards to there not being a lot of material from this era, is just not correct.

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I got an impression that they still were (at the time of that article) on it but never mind.

I was thinking, if that guy is talking about already leaked songs from OTW, never know?
I remember outcry from the fans when BAD25 did not contain unheard songs but already leaked songs that fans had already heard. Maybe executors heard that cry too and decided if they have only leaked songs, they better no to release them now, and save few possibly unheard one for later release.

Ps, I'm been saying this for years, but you guys are shooting yourselves on your own foot with leaking and stuff:cheeky:

ivy said:

I'm not sure what kind of "proof" you are looking for. Parties saying "I'm/He is the reason"? That probably wouldn't happen. But if a 2010 article from a Sony exec can be used as a "proof" that Executors are lying in 2015, Quincy Jones and Randy Jackson's own lawsuit & statement from even more recent times can be used as "proof" that they have a bad blood towards the Estate hence could be a factor here.

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With the bolded I completely agree. It is not far-fetched at all to think it could be an issue here and to consider it, but at this moment we do not have direct proof that shows any of these individuals are directly the reason for this being such a barebones release.

We do know for sure that there is plenty of OTW material in their vaults and that what is in the statement is simply not correct.

As far as Quincy goes I'll state that it's related to OTW. Quincy complained about Bad 25 in his lawsuit. He complained about all the songs he did being used on TII, Cirque projects and so on. Given he worked on OTW, Quincy's complaint would definitely cover OTW. It's illogical to think that Quincy would complain about the Bad 25 anniversary release but he wouldn't complain if a similar release (remix + addition of new demos) were done for OTW.

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The fact that he complained about it does not necessarily mean he would block a release he could make money off of.

elusive moonwalker said:

Maybe its just p.r interns of them saying we dont have alot of footage. When either infact they do but dont want to say we wanna drag things out aslong as poss before we release the good stuff or they dont want to say we have xy and and z but p,q and r are been asses and wont give permission. Hardly sounds good if they come out and say either hence the statement we have now

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But clearly what they said now did not work either, as most fans know that there is plenty of stuff from that era available, and do not appreciate being lied to.

Again, if pending lawsuits are the reason that they cannot include any additional material at this moment, I wish they would at least communicate this. They obviously do not have to say Quincy or Rod or whomever is an asshole or single anyone out, they could simply state that at this moment they are not in a position to release anything else (e.g. due to pending lawsuits). If they do not want to include it in the announcement that they sent out to media outlets, then at least have someone draft something up to circulate among fan forums and clubs. Their communication with the fanbase is poor, to say the least. Lying to the core fanbase you cater to is never a good idea.

Personally, I'd prefer it if they just postponed the project until these things are sorted out. There are plenty of things they can do right now where legal issues would not form an obstacle.

Bubs said:

I was thinking, if that guy is talking about already leaked songs from OTW, never know?
I remember outcry from the fans when BAD25 did not contain unheard songs but already leaked songs that fans had already heard. Maybe executors heard that cry too and decided if they have only leaked songs, they better no to release them now, and save few possibly unheard one for later release.

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No OTW outtakes have leaked. We only got to hear some additional vocals/instruments in unofficial remixes that stay faithful to the original tracks.

SoCav said:

We do know for sure that there is plenty of OTW material in their vaults and that what is in the statement is simply not correct.

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how do you know for sure? because the sony exec said so? what if he was wrong?

The fact that he complained about it does not necessarily mean he would block a release he could make money off of.

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I disagree. If you read what Quincy demanded he wanted first right to remix, double the payment and his written consent to release the masters with other songs. While a lawsuit with such claims going on, he wouldn't participate in a project that would go against his demands. In other words I find it illogical that one minute Quincy would file a lawsuit saying "you must ask for my written consent" and then saying to the Estate "I'm making money so who cares if you didn't ask for my written consent". It would be used against him.

It's important to note that Quincy was being paid royalties from all those releases including Bad 25, he sued asking for more. I'm not quite sure why some seems to focus on money aspect and think people would be okay as long as they are making money from the release. Some stuff isn't just about money, there is a lot more in play here.

Bubs said:

I got an impression that they are still on it but never mind.

I was thinking, if that guy is talking about already leaked songs from OTW, never know?
I remember outcry from the fans when BAD25 did not contain unheard songs but already leaked songs that fans had already heard. Maybe executors heard that cry too and decided if they have only leaked songs, they better no to release them now, and save few possibly unheard one for later release.

Ps, I'm been saying this for years, but you guys are shooting yourselves on your own foot with leaking and stuff:cheeky:

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I think u mean xscape. We never heard any of those songs from bad25 before they came out. Almost everything on xscape was leaked,i had most of those songs in like 07

ivy said:

how do you know for sure? because the sony exec said so? what if he was wrong?



I disagree. If you read what Quincy demanded he wanted first right to remix, double the payment and his written consent to release the masters with other songs. While a lawsuit with such claims going on, he wouldn't participate in a project that would go against his demands. In other words I find it illogical that one minute Quincy would file a lawsuit saying "you must ask for my written consent" and then saying to the Estate "I'm making money so who cares if you didn't ask for my written consent". It would be used against him.

It's important to note that Quincy was being paid royalties from all those releases including Bad 25, he sued asking for more. I'm not quite sure why some seems to focus on money aspect and think people would be okay as long as they are making money from the release. Some stuff isn't just about money, there is a lot more in play here.

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In all honesty....1st off i didnt know quincy could still work (no disrespect intended) 2nd i actually would rather hear his versions of the remixes being that he arranged & composed them.

ivy said:

how do you know for sure? because the sony exec said so? what if he was wrong?

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Not just that, though I think it is highly unlikely that he was wrong. We know an OTW reissue has been planned for a long time (initially even when MJ was alive) so I doubt he was just throwing out baseless claims. I also base it on the things that Brad Sundberg plays during his seminars (like the I Can't Help It demo), stuff that already has been released (like the Hayvenhurst demos on the special edition, the She's Out Of My Life demo on the This Is It soundtrack, and Sunset Driver on The Ultimate Collection), some of the material that has surfaced (the aforementioned unofficial remixes which prove that there are extended takes with unheard vocals of several songs available), things that have been documented by people like Chris Cadman, etc.

I disagree. If you read what Quincy demanded he wanted first right to remix, double the payment and his written consent to release the masters with other songs. While a lawsuit with such claims going on, he wouldn't participate in a project that would go against his demands. In other words I find it illogical that one minute Quincy would file a lawsuit saying "you must ask for my written consent" and then saying to the Estate "I'm making money so who cares if you didn't ask for my written consent". It would be used against him.

It's important to note that Quincy was being paid royalties from all those releases including Bad 25, he sued asking for more. I'm not quite sure why some seems to focus on money aspect and think people would be okay as long as they are making money from the release. Some stuff isn't just about money, there is a lot more in play here.

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Perhaps, but I would still like to know that for sure. And in my opinion it cannot be an excuse for lying to the fanbase.

Liberian Man said:

I think u mean xscape. We never heard any of those songs from bad25 before they came out. Almost everything on xscape was leaked,i had most of those songs in like 07

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No I don't. Maybe you didn't hear them, but others did, and also complained about not finding other songs to release.
Check it out in Bad 25 thread

Bubs said:

No I don't. Maybe you didn't hear them, but others did, and also complained about not finding other songs to release.
Check it out in Bad 25 thread

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So u heard im so blue,free,dont be messin around & al capone...u heard those before bad 25.. really? & where is the thread at

^^I don't listen leaked song purposely so I didn't hear them before but others did, but that is not point I was making. I meant that fans seems to know what is in the vaults and wants them to be released, and if they are released, they complain "we have already heard them".
Same goes with Xscape, and any future release.

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/forums/263-BAD25

But clearly what they said now did not work either, as most fans know that there is plenty of stuff from that era available, and do not appreciate being lied to.

Again, if pending lawsuits are the reason that they cannot include any additional material at this moment, I wish they would at least communicate this. They obviously do not have to say Quincy or Rod or whomever is an asshole or single anyone out, they could simply state that at this moment they are not in a position to release anything else (e.g. due to pending lawsuits). If they do not want to include it in the announcement that they sent out to media outlets, then at least have someone draft something up to circulate among fan forums and clubs. Their communication with the fanbase is poor, to say the least. Lying to the core fanbase you cater to is never a good idea.

Personally, I'd prefer it if they just postponed the project until these things are sorted out. There are plenty of things they can do right now where legal issues would not form an obstacle.
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I agree i would rather the estate be upfront and tell the truth what ever that is. But its business and its what they do.we all know how much knowledge the fan com has and im just throwing out theories. But anyway at least this thread is keeping me entertained

Well, if they are doing Dangerous 25 later this year they won't need Quincy or the brothers for that.

respect77 said:

Well, if they are doing Dangerous 25 later this year they won't need Quincy or the brothers for that.

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perhaps it's me but I don't expect to see anniversary releases after Bad 25 sales.

xscape guy 2003;4127840 said:

I or one will be chewing the estates ears off o twitter to get an answer!

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If you and enough others complain online, you will see a 2nd statement from the Estate...defending themselves.

OnirMJ, as you have read SoCav’s reply, you know that Stringer spoke of what the Estate possessed particularly from the OTW era. The Estate’s statement does not state that Stringer misspoke. The Estate’s statement clearly states the lazy product we are receiving is due to Michael’s actions during the 1970’s. The Estate does not mention some here prefer to blame such as Randy Jackson, Quincy Jones, Rod Temperton, and anyone else that has been envisioned. There is no need to find others blameworthy when the Estate themselves clearly mentioned Michael as blameworthy.

Ivy, your posts regarding Jones and Randy Jackson do not contain proof or a receipt; just the continuation of a failed argument.

Jones’ complaint is not enough to prevent any release and is not OTW, pun intended. What his complaint may do is cause Estate/Sony to limit a release so as to not owe Jones as many monies if they believe Jones can be successful with his complaint. Jones has no control over what is released and has no control over what may be Estate/Sony’s offense decision/action. Only Estate/Sony has control over what is released and their own decisions/actions.

What you have shown is that you prefer to blame Jones for suing for what he may very well deserve. Estate/Sony’s possible offense decision/action to limit the OTW release and therefore minimize what Jones may be owed if successful proves the Estate may very well believe Jones will succeed in his complaint.

Regarding Randy Jackson, his complaint was a reissue of a past complaint. The past complaint had no bearing on any posthumous release however; you prefer to give strength to his current complaint for your own reasons. Unfortunately, you have not realized the timeline of both complaints by Randy had no affect on any posthumous releases, including the current OTW release. A complaint in December 2015 did not hinder any OTW plans that happened before the premiere at Sundance this month or the package to be released to the public next month.

As we know, Michael called Mottola a devil during his tirade against ALL of Sony and his Estate sought a partnership with Sony after his passing. Randy called Branca a devil and has never hindered a posthumous release in the past or now. Sony removed Victory clips from Jacksons’ Vevo, not Randy. The Estate prevented M25 rehearsal clips, not Randy.

Despite your effort to distract from the Estate's statement, the Estate did not list Jones or Randy as blameworthy, they listed Michael.

Tygger;4127974 said:

Ivy, your posts regarding Jones and Randy Jackson do not contain proof or a receipt; just the continuation of a failed argument.

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we will have to agree to disagree about the "proof" especially in regards to Quincy. His unwillingness to take part on Bad 25 documentary - before his lawsuit - and his claims in his lawsuit is enough proof for me. You are free to disagree. Just because you don't agree with what is being written doesn't make it "failed". In case you didn't understand by now, I'm not the kind of person you can push your opinion on.

What his complaint may do is cause Estate/Sony to limit a release so as to not owe Jones as many monies if they believe Jones can be successful with his complaint.

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True. and I have posted Jones complaint here. What will happen if Jones is successful? He said he should be given the first right to remix the songs - that means any remix is off the table because if Jones is successful they'll need to pay him. What else did Jones claim? Any coupling of new songs with the old songs requires his written consent. That means they can't release OTW plus new demos because if Jones win they will need to pay him damages for not asking his written consent.

So how might they limit a release so they don't own Jones anything if he wins his lawsuit? Release OTW as it is - that's exactly what they did. With no remixes and with no coupling of masters with other songs there won't be any damages to pay to Quincy.

Why do you think people have been saying Quincy might be a factor? Exactly for this reason. Apparently you get it too.

What you have shown is that you prefer to blame Jones for suing for what he may very well deserve.

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Is blame your favorite word ever? Kidding aside I haven't made a single comment about validity of his lawsuit.

However I will add that I find it odd that an agreement would give Quincy the right to written consent for any coupling of his masters with other songs. Quincy made claims on almost all of the past releases including TII, Cirque shows, Bad 25. If Quincy wins, it might mean seriously limit the use of those songs.

Estate/Sony’s possible offense decision/action to limit the OTW release and therefore minimize what Jones may be owed proves Estate may very well believe Jones will succeed in his complaint.

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Could be. It's also not a smart thing to continue doing the things you are sued about. Most reasonable people -especially lawyers - would wait for the conclusion of the lawsuit rather than risking more legal action.

Regarding Randy Jackson

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As I mentioned in one of latest posts Jacksons would only become relevant if there was any plans to release Jackson concerts. If there wasn't, Jacksons would be irrelevant to the OTW release. You argued it was Estate that wasn't releasing the such concerts. My posts was merely pointing out that Estate can't control Jackson brothers image and likeliness and such Jackson releases would require Estate and Jacksons working together. If Randy Jackson is a man of principles, I don't see him working with the Estate. You are free to disagree.

they listed Michael.

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well it's apparent from that thread that not many agree with your "they blame Michael" position.

ivy;4127982 said:

Just because you don't agree with my opinion doesn't make it "failed". In case you didn't understand by now, I'm not the kind of person you can push your opinion on.

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laughs

Remember Ivy, you responded to my post because you wanted to prove me wrong and you have not. With each post you prove me correct! It is always difficult to prove a fact incorrect; tis easier and very familiar to label it incorrectly as a view.

If Jones is successful, he simply is owed what he deserves. Jones complaint was filed before Xscape correct? It seems the Estate found OTW/Thriller/Bad era songs that did not include Jones input for Xscape.

Regardless of how the statement is interpreted and the futile fight to not have Michael blameworthy, the Estate did not mention Jones (or Randy), they mentioned Michael. It seems you have an understanding of that despite not wanting to admit so directly in public. How silly of Michael to not have the foresight to utilize his own film crew while in his late teens/early 20’s so he could make the creation of his posthumous products easier for his lazy (and maybe stingy) executors.

ivy;4127916 said:

true. Also something interesting as well. they said "nor did he do any filming using his own camera crews of the making of his short films or other events. ".

They didn't say there was no video recording, they said MJ didn't use his own cameras. What's the difference? If MJ used his own cameras he would own the footage and Estate could have used it easily. If someone else did a recording with their own camera, guess what you need to get their permission to release it.

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Keep dreaming about Randy because that is all it remains; a dream. You have yet to prove or provide receipt of Randy preventing a posthumous release despite proof the Estate has prevented images of Michael in the past. Pretty rich and hypocritical to suggest Randy is not a man of principle after you own commentary showing the executors fleecing fans so as not to grant Jones what he may very well deserve. Bravo!

The Estate does not need to distribute a 2nd statement. You are doing an amazing job revealing they are indeed blameworthy for this lazy release and not a teen aged Michael.

Bubs said:

I got an impression that they still were (at the time of that article) on it but never mind.

I was thinking, if that guy is talking about already leaked songs from OTW, never know?
I remember outcry from the fans when BAD25 did not contain unheard songs but already leaked songs that fans had already heard. Maybe executors heard that cry too and decided if they have only leaked songs, they better no to release them now, and save few possibly unheard one for later release.

Ps, I'm been saying this for years, but you guys are shooting yourselves on your own foot with leaking and stuff:cheeky:

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There is 0 leaked Off The Wall songs. Bad 25 out of 7 unreleased tracks had 6 previously unheard unleaked demos and 1 leaked song - the French version of IJCSLY. If I remember correctly, no one complained about that. What are you talking about??

ivy said:

I don't think that general public is a factor. People working for Sony told that they exclusively targeted the fans with Bad 25 release. Their sale goals was 1/3rd lower than the previous general public release. They believed they were giving exactly what the fans asked for - untouched demos, concert etc. Despite this it didn't reach the lower sales goals. Sony were asking why the fans didn't buy. We discussed this long during that time. I believe to them Bad25 showed that fan targeted projects don't bring the sales (lower sales) they hope. So they might feel that demos are better used in releases such as Xscape where they can attract general public rather than releasing them in anniversary releases. Bad 25 clearly didn't pay off so it's not odd to suggest they will try to cut down losses on OTW. Documentary is probably recovering it's own costs with the TV deals.

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ivy, do you work for the Estate? LOL. I kid.

But seriously, targeting solely fans was a stupid idea if that's the case. Do the Estate know how many 'fans' exist of MJ? It's strange that they only dropped one third in their sales goals when they chose to actively ignore a wider general public audience. I'd have said a drop of 70-80% was more realistic. However, in any event, if you invest money in any business project you should then go on to give yourself the opportunity to make as big a return as possible. Milk that cow dry, man. Actively closing doors on markets it's silly when you should be endeavouring to uncover new ones. Lest we forget new 'fans' could be created which would only bolster sales on further releases.

It's business, I do not understand at all. But I do completely understand the point of view you raised that spending less in the first place might cut down losses - assuming the Bad 25 project actually lost money. It worries me though, when the Estate start to appeal less to fans with new releases - the people like me, who have been throwing money down the Michael Jackson chute since the 90s.

I'm sorry Tygger, but give up. You lost the argument few pages ago. Ivy won. Let's move on.

OnirMJ said:

I'm sorry Tygger, but give up. You lost the argument few pages ago. Ivy won. Let's move on.

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I do wonder where the two of them find the energy.

Tygger said:

Remember Ivy, you responded to my post because you wanted to prove me wrong

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actually you are the one who treats every single discussion as a fight that you need to win and act like superior and all correct. I don't. I come to the threads to discuss the topics and express my opinions. Most of the times I openly acknowledge opinions, speculations, stuff we don't know behind closed doors etc.

My interaction with you was a simple question about who controls the Jackson brothers image. You kept bringing it back to Michael's image. I got it though. If you acknowledged jacksons most probably control their own image and likeliness, you need to accept that they can limit the use of their image and likeliness. That doesn't fit with "let's blame the estate for everything" mindset.

Jones complaint was filed before Xscape correct? It seems the Estate found OTW/Thriller/Bad era songs that did not include Jones input for Xscape.

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You still don't get Jones's claim. He is claiming coupling other songs with OTW, Thriller and Bad songs needs his written consent. That means standalone demo releases such as Xscape doesn't need his consent. OTW released as it is doesn't need his consent. Bad 25 on the other hand original Bad songs coupled with remixes and demos need his consent. TII and Cirque shows that combine OTW, Thriller and Bad songs with other songs from other albums needs his consent. That's what he is claiming.

Pretty rich and hypocritical to suggest Randy is not a man of principle

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Serious misunderstanding here. I haven't said that. Repeatedly I have been saying that it's common sense "proof" that Randy wouldn't work with a man the called the devil meaning that he would stay true to his statements. That has been my position all along.

You are the one arguing the opposite. As I mentioned to you last night your argument is portraying both Randy and Quincy not in a good light. You are the one claiming That they would do one thing sue the Estate, call executors the devil but still work with them. You are the one arguing that there is "no proof/no receipt" that they would stay true to their lawsuit/statements.

check this post if you need help understanding what I mean : http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...ge-66/page87?p=4127784&viewfull=1#post4127784

Look, no offense, but I just had to sift through 3 pages of Tygger and Ivy arguing (again.) Could you guys take it into DM?

Can we get back on topic please?

ChrisC said:

ivy, do you work for the Estate? LOL. I kid.

But seriously, targeting solely fans was a stupid idea if that's the case.

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LOL. No. There was a thread back in the day about people from Sony actually reached out to a few fans asking why Bad 25 didn't sell. they were looking for feedback, trying to understand. At that time they told us some stuff - like how it was fan targeted release, how their sales goals was 1/3rd of "Michael" sales given it was a fan targeted release and how they believed in Bad 25 they did everything the fans wanted (untouched demos, Wembley concert fans had petitions about and so on). (Actually Sony wasn't quite happy about that interaction)

I think for general public they think they would buy the standalone Bad album (or any other album) for $6-$9 dollar. I think they believe only a fan would give the $20+ for the boxset (bad+demos+remixes+live audio) plus $14+ for the documentary plus $10+ for the concert.

I think they genuinely trying to learn and find the best formula to make the fans happy. Bad 25 was untouched demos which didn't perform well. Xscape gave both the originals and the new versions.

Business is a complex thing. Trying to make the fans happy on one hand (which might be an impossible thing to do) and trying to make a profit at the same time. I think a lot of things contributes to what they release and what they don't release. We discussed this during Bad 25 as well. If anniversary releases fail, it means probably we won't see such releases anymore.

I wrote on this on someplace else. Conceptually Bad 25 was very good. Demos, remixes, documentary, concert. If that failed, I'm not surprised to see they don't do it anymore.

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@TinnyandOdd I'm not arguing. Someone is trying to pick a fight with me with attempts of twisting and belittling what I wrote even after I have stopped discussing it with them hours ago. Unfortunately it's on topic though. However I would agree that it's the same old rude repetitive posts that lowers the quality of the thread.

@OnirMJ Don't do it. It would only make it worse.

ivy said:

Business is a complex thing. Trying to make the fans happy on one hand (which might be an impossible thing to do) and trying to make a profit at the same time. I think a lot of thing contributes to the end product. We discussed this during Bad 25 as well. If anniversary releases fail, it means probably we won't see such releases anymore.

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Absolutely. But they have made a lot of mistakes. I'm sure if they could go back and do things differently they would. Using 'Michael' as a reference point is quite astonishing though. I didn't purchase that either but that was merely out of principle and I'm sure you know why I say that. So I'd never use that for a reference point on anything as I know a lot of fans acted similarly.

A blanket, 'no more anniversary releases anymore' seems crazy though when, as you rightly point out, it's complex. There are many reasons why a product doesn't fly and I'm of the opinion that the content of Bad 25 was not the reason on that occasion - with an asterisk added for the quality of the DVD. I feel confident the Estate could put together an anniversary release in the future that offered new content to fans and appealed to others as well. Well actually, my confidence in them is low but I feel it's possible.

ChrisC said:

Using 'Michael' as a reference point is quite astonishing though. So I'd never use that for a reference point on anything as I know a lot of fans acted similarly.

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just as a sales reference point though. I think Michael sold 600,000 in USA and they were targeting 200,000 with Bad 25. To me it seemed like a reasonable expectation. But Bad 25 didn't reach to that expectation. That tells a lot business wise. If a fan targeted release even doesn't reach to the modest goals (if you agree) then they wouldn't spend much time, resources and unreleased material on such releases. General public targeted release such as Xscape do much much better. (Xscape sold 459,000 in 2014 alone)

edited to add: all of the above are USA sales numbers & goals.

^^when you say 200k, is that for the entire 3cd/DVD set or is that combining the different packages together?

OnirMJ said:

I'm sorry Tygger, but give up. You lost the argument few pages ago. Ivy won. Let's move on.

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If I was incorrect, Ivy would not have responded to my post and continued to argue to distract from the fact the Estate is to blame for this lazy release and the non-release of Triumph/Victory.

barbee0715 said:

^^when you say 200k, is that for the entire 3cd/DVD set or is that combining the different packages together?

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I think for the 3cd/dvd boxset and the 2 cd set. I understood is as the goal for the album/music sales.

what other formats did they have? I think both the documentary and the wembley concert was standalone releases.

ivy said:

just as a sales reference point though. I think Michael sold 600,000 in USA and they were targeting 200,000 with Bad 25. To me it seemed like a reasonable expectation.

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Ironically, Bad sold ~130,000 copies last year without any kind of promotion or anniversary or any effort that Sony had to put into it. But this is probably mainly the original album, not Bad 25. Maybe this is another thing that confirms in Sony that it's not worth putting any effort in anniversary releases when the original album sells better (relatively speaking) without any effort and any cost. It seems the general public is still very much interested in Michael Jackson (his catalog album sales were pretty good last year), only they are interested in the original albums, not the additional stuff (ie. demos, remixes).

I think for general public they think they would buy the standalone Bad album (or any other album) for $6-$9 dollar. I think they believe only a fan would give the $20+ for the boxset (bad+demos+remixes+live audio) plus $14+ for the documentary plus $10+ for the concert.

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I don't see then how this OTW release serves that purpose, unless the documentary will be such a big hit with the general public that they would be willing to give out $20+ for this set, instead of just buying a single OTW album for $6-$9, in case they get interested in the album.

This is all commercially speaking, of course.

However, I am a firm believer in that the Estate should not only think of commercial efficiency all the time. On Sony's part it is understandable, but I think the Estate also needs to cultivivate MJ's legacy and in that they sometimes should release material with less sales potential and with more appeal to the hard core fans. Or they should start a collector's label for hard core fans, like it was suggested once in a thread here.