MJresearcher;4137578 said:
I think this discussion is fine, debate only becomes a problem when people attack each other on a personal level instead of discussing and rebutting each other's arguments. I think one of the main reasons debate can get so heated is because people take refutations of the arguments personally, but a refutation of an argument and a personal attack are two different things.
LindavG;4136915 said:
Btw, I don't think there's anything wrong with the type of discussion we're having, keeps things interesting. I assume the "for non-believers only" just means that this thread is not an invitation for religious people to try to save our lost souls ;D
Agree abundantly with both of you. I actually think civilized, good-natured and well meaning debates make conversation interesting. Furthermore, I don't believe people in Christian circles ought to isolate themselves within their parochial limits and disengage from the world. Threatening people with brimstone and fire and other equally "inspiring" visions of hell won't help either. You guys may have noticed it already - I'm not here on any proselytizing mission. To quote Kanye
I'm not here to turn atheists into believers lol.
I am afraid throughout history the Church(es) has/have been too preoccupied with instilling the fear of hell in people instead of persuading them of the beauty and worth of heaven. Thankfully, the age of conversions by the sword and completely unChristian inquisitorial practices is long gone. There still are plenty of items of discontent I, as a believer, have about current Christian practices, but those concerns of this poor, wretched sinner truly do not belong in this thread.
LindavG said:
I don't doubt that people who are willing to die for their religious beliefs are deeply and sincerely convinced those beliefs are true. The problem is that throughout history, people with wildly different beliefs have sacrificed their own lives. As we speak, Muslims in the Middle East are killing themselves and each other because they believe this is what God commands them to do.
Linda, I realize what you say about the acts of certain types of religious people, but I specifically made the difference between those who sacrifice themselves in the name of their religion, e.g. Christian martyrs either in Roman times or in our age
and those who kill others, current events in the Middle East and in other corners of the world certainly come to mind. I know that history has plenty of evidence when Christian either among themselves or against other people have been guilty of dreadful violence. However, that no longer is the case, not on such a wide spread level anyhow. My point was mainly about those among Christians who demonstrated their faith through the ultimate sacrifice
without hurting anyone, which I believe is the authentic Christian way. I don't believe those who kill others in the name of God (at any point in time) have anything to do with real faith, be they Christians, Muslims or any other religion. The voices of moderate Islam which denounce those acts as contrary to their faith unfortunately don't receive enough recognition. I'm convinced they represent the majority of Muslims across the world and they do not see in suicide bombers either heroes or genuine martyrs.
As far as the doubts about God's loving nature and the elements of the Old Testament in support of such assertions I won't really get into details and not necessarily because I may be ill equipped for such a debate. I may not be completely familiar with the entirety of the Old Testament, but suffice it to say that I relate a bit too much for my own well being (thus far, anyhow) to the Book of Job and a couple of other books there. It is with great sadness that I must admit that life has given me a bit too many and too harsh occasions due to which I have been forced to question God's love and mercy for me. The idea that He puts through the hardest tests those whom He loves best provides me with little to no comfort whatsoever. My devotion to honesty prevents from saying otherwise. All of the above notwithstanding, I still hope that one particular Psalm verse about "seeing God's goodness in the land of the living" will hold true.
Btw of Bible verses/quotes and interpretation. It is very true that Bible lends itself to plenty interpretations, contradiction and most limited use according to agenda, priority or particular tradition, as you also pointed out in the issues about divorce.
LindavG said:
To be clear, I don't think there is anything morally wrong with divorce. I only mentioned it because it so clearly demonstrates the double standard that some Christians have, where they will pick and choose Bible verses based on what's convenient for them and suits their particular moral and political beliefs.
I also know that you have nothing contrary to divorce, but were using it as an argument about the duplicity of certain Christians. My personal disagreement with the practice of divorce derives from a rather pragmatic consideration, much more than the religious/moral aspect of it all. Even if all priests, pastors and cardinals in the world would say that divorce is commendable and is not a sin in God's eyes (which is basically what they are saying), I would still consider it a mistake from the sheer point of practicality.
I still believe lifelong and fulfilling monogamy is the most complete form of personal bliss. Except for those who have utter disdain for conjugal faithfulness and confuse fidelity with boredom, no normal human being who embarks on a deep and intimate relationship actually wants it to end, not if it provides them with the physical satisfaction and emotional security such a romantic interest and connection ought to provide. Therefore, from where I'm standing the true issue is not so much Christian marriage or divorce, but that simple, silly notion of finding someone to share true love with for the rest of one's life. After all, what is divorce or any other form of breakup if not the terrible reminder that the search for that "special one" is not actually over?
This time is forever, love is the answer......
La volta che non sbaglio più.........music is full of such lyrics and proclamations about the desire to finally find that one special bond which will hold and be a source of constant joy.
Better stop rambling now because I'm really goin' O/T here. Apologies for intruding and taking so much space. I also feel like I should apologize for the comparison between hoaxers and people of faith. It was mostly just another of my silly attempts at humor in what otherwise is a rather serious discussion. Keep rockin' everyone :flowers: