KJ vs AEG - Appeal Thread

[#MJforever57]

Yes they did try many times to get AEG to settle (out of court!) because they were not interested in getting anything other than MONEY and lot's of it. They would have taken the settlement and not made a peep about anything if AEG had agreed to give them big bucks! In my opinion AEG would have settled if they had known about the Propofol and what Murray was doing.

I agree no trial.

 

[MIST]

Michael didn´t only work with This is it

More details on instrumental album Michael Jackson started before his death, and his love of classical music

TV and film composer and conductor David Michael Frank may have been one of the last persons to collaborate with Michael Jackson on an artistic project. The pop singer’s untimely death left that project in an uncertain state. Initial reports suggested that Jackson planned to do an album of “classical music” he had written; the pieces were to be orchestrated by Frank. Actually, Frank says, the pieces were closer to film music and would have gone into an all-instrumental album had Jackson lived. The Baltimore-born Frank, interviewed by phone in California, gives an account here of his experience with the King of Pop:

Four or five months ago, I received a call from Michael Jackson’s longtime personal recording engineer, Michael Prince, who told me Michael was looking for someone to arrange some music for orchestra. I thought it was going to be for the tour he was going to do. For the next month or two, he would call, saying, ‘Michael Jackson says he’s going to call you.’

At the end of April, another Michael, Michael Jackson’s personal assistant, called me and asked me to come the next day at 10 a.m. and asked me the make and model of my car. I drove to the Holmby Hills home. I drove up to the front door, and was met by an assistant who told me to go inside. I was met there by a woman dressed like a housekeeper, but with a white turban on her head. She said, ‘Michael Jackson will be with you shortly.’ About two minutes later, he came down the stairs.

I was reluctant to shake his hand because I had heard that he was concerned about germs, but he immediately stuck his hand out and gave me a very firm handshake. He was very skinny, but not the least bit frail. He was wearing a suit and a hat. He was going to rehearsal later for the tour. He said, ‘You look familiar.’ I told him a long time ago I worked on a TV tribute to Sammy Davis, Jr. at Shrine Auditorium [that he had participated in]. I told him I had met him briefly there.’ He said, ‘I never forget a face.’

He told me, ‘I have three projects going on simultaneously.’ One was the tour that the whole world knew about. The other two I believe no one knew about. One was to be an album of pop songs. Then he said, ‘The other one is that I want to record an album of classical music’ — what he called classical music.
He said he listened to ...

classical music all the time; it was his absolute favorite. I was impressed with the pieces he mentioned: Aaron Copland’s Rodeo, Fanfare for the Common Man and Lincoln Portrait; Leonard Bernstein’s West Side Story. I mentioned Bernstein's On the Waterfront. Then Michael mentioned that he loved Elmer Bernstein's film music, too, and he specifically mentioned To Kill a Mockingbird.

I realized that almost all the classical pieces he mentioned are childlike, very simple and pretty, like Prokofiev’s Peter and the Wolf and Tchaikovsky’s Nutcracker Suite. He also mentioned Debussy several times, specifically Arabesque [No. 1] and Clair de lune. He was very soft-spoken when were talking about music, but when he got animated about something, he was very changed. When he mentioned how he loved Elmer Bernstein, and I said I liked the Magnificent Seven score, Michael started singing the theme very loudly, almost screaming it.
He said, ‘I’m making a CD.’ Then his son, Prince Michael, came in, and Michael asked him to find a CD player. Paris found one and brought it in with Prince. Michael played the CD. It was very pretty music. He said, ‘But a section is missing.’ He played a second piece. And he said, ‘But a section is missing, too. But I can hum it to you.’ I asked if there was a piano in the house, and he said there was one in the pool house. We headed out there, but Michael stopped when he saw the dog was outside, soaking wet from being in the pool. He didn't want us to get splattered. It was kind of funny. Michael got another assistant to hold the dog while we went to his pool house.

I sat at the piano and Michael hummed the missing part of one of the pieces. I had taken a little digital recorder with me and asked if I could record him. He was in perfect pitch. I tried to figure out chords to go with it as he hummed. He said, ‘Your instincts are totally right about the chords.’

We talked about classical music some more. I played some Debussy pieces. Michael seemed very happy and I think he felt very comfortable with me. He mentioned Leonard Bernstein again, and I played some of West Side Story. He told me he had met Bernstein once and that Bernstein had said he was a big fan of Michael’s.
Back in the house, whenever he’d go from room to room, you’d hear, ‘I love you, Daddy.’ ‘I love you, Paris.’ They all seemed pretty normal and happy.

Michael was very anxious to get the pieces orchestrated and record the music with a big orchestra. I suggested we record it at the Fox, Sony or Warner Brothers lot. I asked if he could have someone call me to discuss the budget and he said he would take care of it. When I left there were several fans outside the gate.

[Later] I talked to Michael on the phone. He asked me how the project was going and I said I was waiting to hear from someone so we could set the deal. I suggested we could record the music in London while he was doing the show there. He liked the idea. He again brought up Arabesque.

I laid the music all out on my computer and started on the orchestrations. Finally, a week before Michael died, his manager, Frank Dileo, called and asked me for an email with the budget and an electronic mock-up of the music, the costs of orchestration.

Now I have no idea what’s going to happen with this. I’m hoping the family will do something to get this done. I will not bring it up [with them] until after what I think is an appropriate time.

My guess is that each piece would be seven to ten minutes long. [Each one] is more substantial than a song. It’s very pretty music. One piece had an Irish quality about it. I suggested that we could use a Celtic harp. The pieces sound like pretty film score music, with very traditional harmony, and definitely very strong melodies. One of them was a little John Barry-ish, like in Out of Africa -- that kind of John Barry score. I could hear [in my head] sweeping strings and French horns in unison.
I told Michael I was going to use one of Leonard Bernstein’s batons I had bought at auction when we did the recording. I knew he would have gotten a big kick out of that. I guess I still will use that baton if I ever get to conduct the music.

Michael seemed happy , he felt he had energy to do other things but then Murray came..
Michael went to dr Klein several times when AEG wanted him to go to rehearsals gut Michael did what he wanted.

Another thing it wasn´t AEG who demanded that Michael had to sing live the whole show, fans did.

 

[J5master]

First of all evidence proves Michael did not have to attend rehearsals every day and NEVER did. Where are you getting your information from because it's not from the trial. As TII got closer to the London dates MJ was hardly coming to rehearsals at all. He came to work on June 19, 2009 sick with chills and slight disorientation. He was given food, wrapped in blankets, a heater was brought for him and he was sent home. Note: This was the first and ONLY time he ever came to work in that condition. Phillips was notified, Murray was called, Frank was called and a meeting was called at Michael’s house the next day. Doesn’t sound like nobody cared about him to me. Michael Amir Williams testified Michael told him he was only going 30 or 40% so he was actually performing less than he did during other tours when he was 30. Again I don't know where your information is coming from because MJ did give permission to film footage which is why he kept saying he was not singing full out or going full on. MJ's autopsy proved he was not sick and in fact he was very healthy. Propofol poison killed him not his health or overwork.

It was expected of him to come to rehearsals everyday. Because MJ was sick, no he did not attend, and yes he was sent home on June 19th. Whether he did or didn't attend isn't the issue in the end, but what was expected of him - and what created the unneeded pressure.

Stacy Walker's testimony:

Q. You’re a perfectionist, have a good background in dance and choreography, would you say that it’s necessary for a dancer to rehearse, should Mr. Jackson have been at rehearsal?A. Yes, Mr. Jackson should have been at rehearsal more even though he was rehearsing at home with Travis Payne.

Travis Payne:

Q. Is it truthful to say Mr. Jackson did not have to come to rehearsal?

A. No, he had to come.
Q. Is it true to say Mr. Jackson wasn’t to come to rehearsal until everyone was ready for him?
A. No, he still had to come. There were other things he had to do.
Q. Is it correct to say Mr. Jackson did not have to come to rehearsals?
A. No, he needed to come to rehearsal. It was part of the job.

More travis:

Q. And isn’t it true that you told Michael Amir it’s really critical that Michael show up for rehearsals because the show he is the fulcrum of the production and it really involves around him?
A. That is correct.
Q. Did you tell him that it’s not in his contract that he doesn’t need to go to rehearsal?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever tell anyone that Michael Jackson doesn’t need to go to rehearsal?
A. No.
Q. Did you tell Michael Amir so even though he, Michael Jackson, might know these dance moves, you know, intimately, and he’s just reinterpreting what he has done during his wholecareer, the entire show is a massive production, it really needs Michael’s presence because people have to key off him and they have to build the cues that affects everything off of Michael?
A. Yes, I ..I made that call at the behest of Kenny Ortega.
Q. Did you say those things
A. Yes.

Email between the insurance brokers:

: “Randy Phillips & Conrad Murray are responsible for making sure MJ attends rehearsal”.

Email from Gongaware in May 2009:

The Kid is healthy and rehearsing every day. He was still there at dance rehearsals at 9pm last night when I left.

Randy Phillips:

Q. And Mr. Ortega’s main concern was that Michael Jackson was not showing up at rehearsals,correct?

A. That is correct.
Q. And that Michael Jackson was not focused in mid to late June on the rehearsals, correct?
A. Correct. Just to correct your previous thing, Michael Jackson was showing up to rehearsals, just not enough of them, in Kenny’s opinion.

There's much more than that that either directly says that folks either expected him to be at rehearsal every, were disappointed that he WASN'T a rehearsals everyday, said he was required to be at rehearsals everyday, or thought was the NORM that he'd be at rehearsals everyday. To me, that shows that the expectation from the higher ups was that MJ needed to be at rehearsals everyday. Which meant that Michael himself felt that he needed to be at rehearsals everyday or else they'd 'pull the plug' as Ortega said in testimony. Any expectation that MJ should be at rehearsals everyday is simply outrageous.

That so-called "intervention' or whatever you want to call it the day after June 19th was about making sure MJ attended rehearsals for Randy Phillips, the higher up. I believe Ortega cared about MJ's well being, but Phillips? Who was leading AEG? Who could actually do something about it? not so much. Ortega was sounding the alarm on Murray who pretty much shut him down at this 'intervention', and Randy backed Murray up, and Ortega stormed out. This equals AEG ignoring the issue. Murray said that he'd take care of it. He didn't.

As far as how much effort MJ was putting in the rehearsals? I got that info from watching them. Look at "Jam" Dangerous rehearsals compared to TII rehearsals. MJ was straight chillin' for the Dangerous rehearsals lol and was barely singing so that the team could hear him, only danced when he felt like it, definitely not dancing at almost every point you'd expect him to dance...which is really how it it should have been. for TII, he was dancing way more, pretty much complete choreography, and putting a lot of energy into it. He was doing a LOT more than what he would normally do for rehearsals, just watching Dangerous tour vs. TII back to back. So yes I believe MJ might have told Amir that, but when it came down to it...what he did was more, considering he rehearsed more than he ever did overall for any of his world tours.

Also, Karen Faye was the one who talked about the cameras not actually being approved by MJ, because he would have had no control over the footage. Karen can be loopy sometimes but she did spend decades with MJ, I doubt she and Michael Bush be lying about something like that.

From all I know about MJ his insomnia ALWAY'S flared up during shows and there is proof he suffered from it even when he wasn't performing going all the way back to his 20's. MJ also had PASSED drug addiction and he talked publically about it. He also took pain medications in the past for injuries and medical conditions before agreeing to work for AEG.

Yes, he always had insomnia, but he for SURE didnt need to have a doctor watch over him all the time to make sure he slept through out those 30 years. And for sure worrying about being spent before the concerts even began was taking a stressful toll. This wasn't during the show, this was before the show, where MJ was supposed to be taking it easy and if he WANTED to spend 3 days trying to have 1 night of genuine sleep before his next rehearsal, he could. And yes, MJ took pain meds before agreeing to work for AEG, but thats not the issue really since MJ wasn't addicted to pain meds at that time. MJ was adamant about getting OFF of them. MJ was messed up because of the stuff Murray was giving him (VERSED, really??? - this is the stuff that was making MJ sick because it wasn't producing true sleep and MJ was sleep deprived, among other side effects with whatever drugs Murray was giving him), because he was required to make sure MJ got up and attended rehearsals no matter what. When he did try to put MJ on sick leave, that was when Ortega threw a fit. That was when talks about Ortega leaving was being thrown around, that is when emails were being sent back and forth about Murray not doing his job...which was to simply make sure MJ got to rehearsals healthy and alert. When Ortega sent MJ home it was either Murray or Randy who told Ortega to not send him home again and to stop acting like an ametaur psychologist or phsyician.

What red flags should they have been looking for when MJ said he was fine? MJ was not a fragile infant who needed to be babysat like he was handicap. He was a grown up MAN with three children he was caring for on his own. Why didn't KJ see these Red Flags you keep talking about? After all if they were so clearly seen why the hell didn't she see them? Didn't Joe tell her to go over to MJ's house and check on him?

Ortega said both he and MJ wanted the concerts pushed back. This was ignored. MJ kept saying that he wasn't getting rest and that he was tired, this was ignored (more indirectly by murray who didn't know what he was doing). MJ didn't want 50 shows with the schedule that was set. This got ignored. MJ wasn't trying to come to rehearsal every day so he conserve his energy. This was ignored. Everyone kept saying that they saw MJ was spent, but thought nothing of it. YES, Mj is a grown man, but like i said above - this is not the hunger games. It shouldn't be a kill or be killed kind of environment when you're working with a team, when you're working with partners. Michael was the star here, Michael was the one that was going to work those concerts, Michael was the center of all this and so Michael's needs should have always been met. If Michael was spent, then they should have taken it more seriously. After June 19th, all bets should have been off and MJ should have been given a break. The concerts should have been pushed back. Red flag # 100000 is when Ortega was driving home and someone was screaming and crying over the phone that MJ wasn't gonna make it. Red flag #100001 is when ORTEGA himself was crying over it. If they thought he was just sick with a cold and there was nothing to it, crying would NOT have been the reaction. They KNEW something was terribly wrong with this whole thing.

This whole operation was a train wreck and it caused a chain reaction that led to Murray killing MJ. For the last week or so, MJ went back and forth from having good days to bad days, from looking good to feeling horrible. And even when he felt horrible, and everyone KNEW he felt horrible (June 24th), they still went on with the show. Red flags all over. MJ was pressured to continue on because he didn't want the thing to fall apart, so while yes he could have said 'FU, and FU too, I'm not doing this' - he really couldn't because he had a lot riding on it too. Not to mention AEG thought of him as a low life and he would have never heard the end of it.

Katherine Jackson wasn't around during rehearsals and the whole saga so she couldn't have known. I think she saw MJ one day in person during that period? Joe was never around during that period so he definitely wouldn't have known. There was that whole Jackson family intervention they testified to, which happened early in the game, in which they admitted it was awkward cuz MJ was fine. ANd there was no sign he was addicted to anything. Randy Jackson might have thought he was, but most people that talked to him around that time said MJ was clean. Doctors who had talked with him said he was clean. This was not a case of drug addiction, this was a case of homicide. The signs that they were slowly killing him were everywhere.

Over the course of those months, those people (AEG, choreographers, directors) had been working with MJ closely. For some, like Ortega and Travis, they've been working with MJ for over 20 years and had testified they NEVER saw MJ like that towards the end, ever. So if anyone should have gotten a bad feeling about anything going on, it was them. And most of them testified that they DID have a bad feeling.

And see, I do not doubt that MJ was a healthy man. Im not denying what the autopsy says. But the facts are that he was sick towards the end, and just because one gets sick doesn't mean they aren't healthy overall. All of what was happening to MJ was reversible. What ever stuff Murray was feeding him was making MJ loopy and more tired than before. The opposite of what he was supposed to do. Murray killed MJ. I do not deny this. MJ was healthy and FINE before Murray started 'treating' MJ. But Murray was treating MJ under AEG's watch, because they were desperate wanted their 50 shows to go on without a hitch and without any cost to them - and so thinking MJ WAS a drug addict who would ruin everything, they assigned Murray to make sure he was clean at night but all Murray did was pump him full of drugs and left him to die because he was on the phone talking about INSURANCE policies that would ensure him a bigger paycheck thanks to AEG's push for 50 shows. And in the court of law that is liability.

Judge mathis actually explained it well lol. Its like if an employee of some place came to fix your sink and ended up flooding the house, that company is liable for the employee's actions - because they hired them and supervises them and in turn are partially responsible.

The AEG trial most surely did take away MJ's dignity and his privacy. The media only reported what KJ's lawyers and Randy's testimony gave them on a silver platter! I love MJ more also after this horrible trial because it showed me the only people who brought it didn't give a damn about him or dragging his dead body through the mud. That is very sad to me that he was alone because his family just didn't care.

MJ's privacy was already breached by the murray trial, by the 2005 trial and everything else. Breached all over the place, especially after he died considering all the book deals. The flood gates are open, and they can't be closed, so providing I think the lesser of the two evils is to make lemonade of it and expose these people involved for who they really are. At least use this situation for something good.

The media are the ones who spun everything to make it look like MJ was completely irresponsible, and it seems that you might believe that if I take Katherine's side...that I think he was too. Media also made him out to be a raging drug addict and just crazy. But the whole picture, and not just soundbites from the media, says MJ did what he could. When you trust people, this is what happens. This is what I got out of the trial, not that MJ was less of a man. Like I said, I'm glad this is out there, because people should know the totality of what happened (the media will always twist it, but at least the actual testimony and the emails are out there). Maybe it is about money, I don't know, but I like I said before I'm glad the added consequence is that we got the WHOLE story about what is going on instead of just Murray's narrow/psychopathic/pathological lying view.

Sorry for the long windedness


....also yes, MJ was happy and excited at first, and yes he was working on other things, which even adds to the stress of everything else when things took a turn for the worst.

 

[Victory22]

@J5master,
Don’t you think Michael could read a contract and understand what he was signing? I love MJ deeply and will always defend him but right is right. If he signed a contract with three lawyers representing him stating he had to come to rehearsals and he didn’t come how are the other parties wrong for expecting him to be there? The fact of the matter is Michael did not come to a lot of rehearsals (so he was not overworked). It was affecting the schedule of the show opening in London on time. That's business and Michael Jackson was an artist and a businessman. MJ's rep was on the line too and if the shows had to be put back a lot of fans who were coming from all over the world would have been very upset. The media would have eaten him alive and that would have damaged MICHAEL not AEG.

As for the insomnia Michael always had a doctor watching over him on every tour. How would you or anyone else know what he had over the past 30 years? MJ said he needed a doctor to watch over him when he took PROPOFOL he didn't talk about the past 30 years. Show business is a stressful business and so are most other jobs in the world. Again I have to ask do you think Michael was some sort of mental cripple who never had to deal with stress? MJ dealt with stress all of his life and solved more serious issues then AEG without breaking like a rag doll. MJ was a fighter. He was not a weak little flower that needed to be looked after more then 7 year old Blanket. He was a grown (Head of his household) man.

The trial proved Murray gave Michael Versed, Valium, Ativan, and Propofol but the Propofol killed him thanks to Murray. Murray was ordering the meds and he as the physician in charge is responsible for MJ's death.

You don't have to tell me the AEG case was not about addiction. I'm telling you MJ did not die from 50 shows, stress or too many rehearsals. He did not die because AEG was working him to hard or because he was sick. MJ died because Conrad Murray killed him after giving Propofol and abandoning him. If you think Phillips thought Michael could wake up and perform like a pro after being given all the mess Murray was giving him you are thinking insane. I can't believe any of us believes Phillips is that stupid. Mean yes, stupid no. The only train wreck was Murray.

You're darn right Katherine & Joe weren't around for rehearsals but you can be sure they would have been around with their hands out for some money as soon as Michael started getting paid. They were around before the rehearsals started trying to get a cut into TII and to get MJ to perform with the fam. They didn't think he was too sick or stressed to do that.

You said "Judge mathis actually explained it well lol. Its like if an employee of some place came to fix your sink and ended up flooding the house, that company is liable for the employee's actions - because they hired them and supervises them and in turn are partially responsible".

The company that hired the employee to fix my sink would have no responsibility if it can be proven the employee planned to flood my house without their knowledge and acted off duty to do it using his own tools. That's what AEG proved and that's why they don't have to pay.

 

[Victory22]

If Michael was sick toward the end how did AEG ignore red flags and ignore he was sick? What should have been done between June 19, 2009 and June 25, 2009? A meeting was held at Carolwood on the 20th at MJ's home. MJ stayed home to rest on the 21st, 22'd. Returned to work on the 23th and 24th. Died on the 25th.

 

[J5master]

@J5master,
Don’t you think Michael could read a contract and understand what he was signing? I love MJ deeply and will always defend him but right is right. If he signed a contract with three lawyers representing him stating he had to come to rehearsals and he didn’t come how are the other parties wrong for expecting him to be there?

It was not in the contract that he needed to be at the rehearsals, but that does not mitigate the fact that the expectation for him to be there was everywhere. Almost everyone testified to the fact that they knew MJ needed to be at rehearsals everyday, that folks were frustrated when he wasn't. Why? because everyone was under pressure. Why? because of AEG's handling of the schedule. And if MJ wasn't there, everything would be shut down. So yes, he went out of his own accord, when he could, because he felt he had no other choice.

The fact of the matter is Michael did not come to a lot of rehearsals (so he was not overworked). It was affecting the schedule of the show opening in London on time. That's business and Michael Jackson was an artist and a businessman. MJ's rep was on the line too and if the shows had to be put back a lot of fans who were coming from all over the world would have been very upset. The media would have eaten him alive and that would have damaged MICHAEL not AEG.

Was it MJ's fault that they pushed the start date up 3 weeks before the original date? Was it MJ's fault that everyone was running around frantic because production was behind schedule? Yes MJ's rep (and much more than that) was on the line which is why he went through it despite not being happy about it, but all of that strife would have never happened if it weren't for AEG. And it would absolutely be a loss for AEG, hence the harsh and frantic emails towards the end. They weren't saying those things for Michael's benefit (in the midst of making underhanded insults about him).

Plus, MJ didn't NEED to be at rehearsals. He KNEW his own dance moves, he MADE them, as Travis said. For people to throw fits, threaten to leave, threaten to cancel because MJ didn't come to rehearsal is ridiculous. It would have not affected anything if MJ was given proper medical care and not force fed a bunch of drugs so that he could make rehearsals the next day so that these folks won't freak out and pull the plug. Michael could have just made ONE rehearsal and that should have been enough for the production to do what they needed to do. He was working with Travis all the time, practicing with him, Travis knew what MJ wanted done...Kenny knew what MJ wanted done. MJ not being there should not have made everything shut down.

Travis:

Q. How many times did Mr. Jackson miss rehearsals?A.Not many.
Q.Less than five times?
A.May be about five.
Q.Were these times throughout the whole period of preparations for the tour?
What period of time was this?
Panish: Objection
Q.Were these times in June or through the entire period of This is it rehearsals?
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]A.Not many times than 5 times during the company rehearsals with the whole groups. April, May and June.

[/FONT]

This means that MJ didn't show up for like 5 times out of the whole duration of the project (probably give or take a couple of days). Which means folks were freakin out about 7 days at most. Out of 3 months. MJ WAS coming to rehearsals, everyday at first according to Gongaware. This was unneeded pressure, stress, and drama. MJ missing those rehearsals would NOT have stalled the project, and it DEFINITELY wouldn't have stalled it if AEG had handled scheduling right. And MJ shouldn't have been coming to rehearsals everyday in the FIRST place, and that was NOT normal for MJ on any typical production.
Again, Kenny was told to NOT send MJ back home for whatever reason, and was chastised for doing so when he was most definitely in the right. All of this says that AEG was completely at fault for causing all of this pressure.
It's busine$$, you're right. Nothing but. MJ was a human being who was juggling a lot, and you would think the people he had trusted to do the jobs they should have done would have been sufficient. He couldn't be the artist, the producer, the business man, the project manager, the stage director, the doctor, the choreographer, the accountant, and the agent all at once all of the time. Hence there was a team and a partnership. Just because you're grown doesn't mean you shouldn't get support, shouldn't mean you have to hand hold everyone just to make sure everything doesn't fall apart - especially a huge production like that. Its impossible. MJ was doing his job while everyone else wasn't.

As for the insomnia Michael always had a doctor watching over him on every tour. How would you or anyone else know what he had over the past 30 years?

I don't remember hearing anything about MJ needing to have a doctor on call every night BEFORE a tour started. I may totally be wrong about this so show me when this was talked about and I'll concede. I know he's had insomnia, I've always known that, but it wasn't raging mad every year of his life. During tours, when he was traveling around on an adrenaline rush, moving from place to place (which is what caused most of his sleep problems) and being jet lagged...yes. Most definitely. When he was preparing for a series of concerts that wasn't moving anywhere? In which he "allegedly" had plenty of rest time in between shows (not)? In which he was supposed to be conserving his energy and not rehearsing everyday on the eve of the concerts? yeah not so much. I don't remember anyone saying MJ had to use propofol outside of the times when he's actually giving shows and he needs sleep for them. This was not during a tour, this was BEFORE a series of concerts, a month before actually. Something outside of the typical anticipation must have triggered it into overdrive, IMO, based on everything everyone said about what was going on at the time of him beginning to take it.

Again I have to ask do you think Michael was some sort of mental cripple who never had to deal with stress? MJ dealt with stress all of his life and solved more serious issues then AEG without breaking like a rag doll. MJ was a fighter. He was not a weak little flower that needed to be looked after more then 7 year old Blanket. He was a grown (Head of his household) man.

See thats where we are seeing extremely opposite things here. None of this is MJ's fault. None of this shows MJ "breaking like a rag doll" on his own accord or because of lack of will power. That is the exact OPPOSITE of what I'm seeing. I'm seeing MJ persevering and fighting through it despite a TON of things that were not in his control. And I'm seeing a bunch of people who he trusted letting him down. No matter how many times you keep saying he's a grown man, yes, he had his weaknesses. But no, those weaknesses doesn't mean he was some weak little flower. No, those weaknesses were not the cause of his death. The AEG stress only seems trivial if one does not acknowledge that what they orchestrated was severe. I don't think Karen was lying with her text messages in which she said that MJ was afraid of losing everything (why in the world would she, but I suppose you can believe that she was lying, in which case all of these arguments are mute on my end). Even for grown people, things get overwhelming, things get scary. Even for grown people, stuff gets out of control and out of their hands. But MJ didn't buckle down, he kept going to rehearsals and he was determined to make it work. And he gave it the best he could (giving a smashing performance on the 23rd according to Travis) despite not feeling well, despite all the crap around him. He was determined to make it work.

Ironically enough, only the people at AEG thought that MJ needed to be looked after like a child, and that is exactly what led up to all of this mess. MJ says no, they say 'go to your room' (metaphorically). They think MJ was hooked on drugs, so they hire someone they didn't even really want to pay to keep an eye on him at night. When MJ says he doesn't want to go to rehearsals, they say they'll shut the whole thing down. When MJ complains, they ignore it. And because MJ's hands were tied, he really didn't have much of a choice but to just try to get through it and get it over with.

The trial proved Murray gave Michael Versed, Valium, Ativan, and Propofol but the Propofol killed him thanks to Murray. Murray was ordering the meds and he as the physician in charge is responsible for MJ's death.

Agreed! I do not dispute this. But I think more parties are also responsible for the events that led up to him administering this - again, if MJ hadn't been pressured to attend rehearsals everyday, if Murray hadn't been pressured through employment by AEG to make sure MJ attended rehearsals everyday, if production was done in a less INSANE way so that everyone was actually prepared, then things would have been much different. MJ probably would not have needed propofol or any other drug or a doctor to be around to give it in the first place.

You don't have to tell me the AEG case was not about addiction. I'm telling you MJ did not die from 50 shows, stress or too many rehearsals. He did not die because AEG was working him to hard or because he was sick. MJ died because Conrad Murray killed him after giving Propofol and abandoning him. If you think Phillips thought Michael could wake up and perform like a pro after being given all the mess Murray was giving him you are thinking insane. I can't believe any of us believes Phillips is that stupid. Mean yes, stupid no. The only train wreck was Murray.

I'm not saying that MJ died from any of that. I'm saying MJ died from a negligent doctor ALSO because AEG created an environment that allowed and in many ways encouraged this doctor to practice the way he had. I'm not saying AEG is at fault in replacement of Murray. I'm saying AEG is at fault in addition to Murray.
And thats the thing, Phillips didn't give a damn WHAT Murray was giving MJ. Yet he made a contract with Murray for his own agenda. Murray had to get permission from Phillips to do certain things. The moment Phillips got wind that Murray was possibly being negligent, if he gave a damn, Murray would have been fired. But he needed murray for the hefty insurance check they were working on right on the day MJ died. All Phillips cared about was MJ doing what he was told, and if he did it pumped full of drugs, so be it. Business as usual.

You're darn right Katherine & Joe weren't around for rehearsals but you can be sure they would have been around with their hands out for some money as soon as Michael started getting paid. They were around before the rehearsals started trying to get a cut into TII and to get MJ to perform with the fam. They didn't think he was too sick or stressed to do that.

Right! I agree! lol Listen I'm not saying MJ was bed ridden sick from start to finish. But things were increasingly getting worse and worse and AEG's actions contributed to that. Again, I say MJ was FINE until AEG started micromanaging everything - starting with murray, THAT'S when things went south.

You said "Judge mathis actually explained it well lol. Its like if an employee of some place came to fix your sink and ended up flooding the house, that company is liable for the employee's actions - because they hired them and supervises them and in turn are partially responsible". The company that hired the employee to fix my sink would have no responsibility if it can be proven the employee planned to flood my house without their knowledge and acted off duty to do it using his own tools. That's what AEG proved and that's why they don't have to pay.

And I think Katherine proved that AEG knew that Murray was mucking up EVERYTHING, when Ortega said so point blank during the 'tough love' session/intervention thing. And Phillips blew it off as Ortega being hysterical. I think AEG knew Murray was flooding the kitchen when folks complained to Phillips over email about how Murray CLEARLY wasn't doing what they had hired him to do. When Phillips needed Murray for other motives outside of keeping MJ well (obtaining medical records for that big insurance deal). When everyone around MJ started to get worried (about MJ) towards the end, and AEG did absolutely nothing in regards to fixing their mistakes that got them all into the high pressured mess in the first place. Kitchen flooded and AEG knew.

If Michael was sick toward the end how did AEG ignore red flags and ignore he was sick? What should have been done between June 19, 2009 and June 25, 2009? A meeting was held at Carolwood on the 20th at MJ's home. MJ stayed home to rest on the 21st, 22'd. Returned to work on the 23th and 24th. Died on the 25th.

Its a lot about prevention - in the fact that everything that led up to June 19 could have been avoided had AEG paid attention to MJ's wishes. Had they not tried to interfere with Murray and held him on a leash. Had they not pushed MJ into stuff he didn't want to do. It would have also helped for Phillips not to have blown off Ortega's CORRECT suspicions about Murray. It would have helped if the meeting at Carolwood wasn't a bashing fest on Kenny's serious concerns about MJ, and it would have helped if Phillips hadn't - with extreme bias - vouched for Murray at that meeting (in essence, as Ortega said, that meeting was about HIMSELF and not about MJ, which pissed him off). MJ was sick on the 24th again, so clearly not all was well after that meeting and after those 2 days of rest. Ortega admitted that what transpired on that 19th was the product of a steady decline, which others saw as well. It wasn't necessarily that he was super sick, but he certainly wasn't getting proper sleep (thanks to Murray's propofol drip, which was also thanks to the fact that MJ had to be at rehearsals every day no matter what and in turn, Murray worked his incompetent magic to produce NON REM sleep), and he wasn't completely 100% but MJ being MJ wasn't going to sit and complain and huff and puff about it.

I understand we're on different pages about this though. To me, this narrative does not show a picture of a weak man that needed his hand held and did know how to be an adult. Far from it. If I saw it like that, I would find it hard to accept. But I just don't, I see the complete opposite in that MJ did what he could while folks ran after their own agendas. MJ was caught in the middle. Murray killing Mj was the end result.

 

[Bubs]

You don't have to tell me the AEG case was not about addiction. I'm telling you MJ did not die from 50 shows, stress or too many rehearsals. He did not die because AEG was working him to hard or because he was sick. MJ died because Conrad Murray killed him after giving Propofol and abandoning him. If you think Phillips thought Michael could wake up and perform like a pro after being given all the mess Murray was giving him you are thinking insane. I can't believe any of us believes Phillips is that stupid. Mean yes, stupid no. The only train wreck was Murray.

The bolded part is something that people seems to forget and lay blame on someone else.
Michael used propfol at least some of his previous tours (K Fake testified this) and he would have used/ did use it again as he was told by some idiot doctor that it was safe.
Even if MJ had other concert promoter, I think he result would have been the same if CM was there, and lets not forget Michael wanted CM. Noone could not foresee that CM finds talking to his girlfriends so important that he pumps MJ full of propofol and goes off talking to his various gf's.



@J5master
I agree with you when you say MJ didn't need rehearsals, BUT others who were in the show needed rehearsals, and they needed MJ to tell them how he wanted things to be.
I don't think AEG demanded MJ to rehearse that much. I didn't see anywhere in trial that AED demanded MJ to dance like crazy or sing full capacity.
I think it was more like Kenny and others wanted to see how everything worked together, such as dancers with MJ, lights, music. MJ most certainly knew how to do his bit, but you cannot expect others being as good as MJ. They needed to rehearse with Michael in order to know their place on stage, music people needed MJ to tell them how he wanted it to sound and so on. I really think that they wanted MJ on Staples to oversee things, not work himself to death. TII was Michael's show, and he was captain of his ship. It was his job to tell his dancers, musicians, and others how he wanted his show to be.

You say MJ and everybody else were under the pressure by AEG schedule. They already pushed back first dates of the tour, and what do you think media and fans had reacted to more push backs? Also even if the dates had been bushed back, it wouldn't had changed anything. MJ still would have needed his propofol, and CM being there was a time bomb ready to explode.

Sometimes I don't understand some fans treating MJ like world wraps around him. I don't think so. Michael signed bad deal (thanks to Tohme) but he was capable to read what he signed so he needed to fulfil his part of the agreement.

Note, did you read MJ's note that were presented in the trial?
If you check first note, he had lots of things going on what he wanted to do. Does that look like AEG was putting pressure on MJ or was it MJ putting pressure on himself?
Note 2 asks "where is money for 50 shows" so MJ knew about 50 shows.
Note 4 says negotiate 40 more shows, so again MJ knew shows were hard for him, but he wanted 40 more shows.
(I think this note was written after 10 shows were agreed)
Note 9 says CM needs to practice. Do you understand that? It practically shows that MJ knew CM wasn't very good on what MJ wanted him to be, but he took that risk anyway and allowed CM to put him under.
Here is the link to notes in case you didn't read them: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...dwritten-notes-from-Jackson-AEG-trial-motions

 

[MIST]

I think it was about 2 weeks before he died that his mother visited him and he seemed happy and fine.
They had managed to do the film for Earth song at that time.
She didn´t see anything wrong with him.

It was Michael who payed for the cost for the rehearsals, he just borrowed money from AEG and had to pay it back later.
AEG would lose money temporary but it was Michael who really needed the shows and he was scared AEG would stop him.

perhaps Michael didn´t need a doctor before his other tours but this time it was different.
He hadn´t done concerts for a long time but more important he had to endure a trial he was ripped apart by the world, lost his home,he had been treated like dirt.
The man was so scared just to do a press conference, i think he wanted to do the shows but he was scared too for how fans would react.

I believe he needed the first concerts where fans supported him, screamed and cheered, to be somehow healed.
He probably needed something to sleep on, perhaps with help by a doctor but I think after some shows a lot of the pressure had gone and he could have managed to sleep without propofol.

They did postpone the shows a little and some fans were angry about it.

AEg put a pressure on Michael but fans put a pressure on him too.
Michael wanted to sing live to all songs it´s hard to do that and those he worked with didn´t tell him to do it.
But fans did and Michael wanted to please his fans

some artists don´t need to go to rehearsals but Michael had so many ideas for the shows , he was needed there sometimes to tell how he wanted it, to see how things should be.

 

[Bubs]

some artists don´t need to go to rehearsals but Michael had so many ideas for the shows , he was needed there sometimes to tell how he wanted it, to see how things should be.

I agree with this. MJ had his ideas and tricks what he wanted for the show, but those needed to be tested with other crew so MJ needed to be there to oversee and tell his vision. If he didn't attend or tell them what he wanted, it wasn't going to be Michael's concert.

 

[Victory22]

@J5master,
So now you’re blaming AEG for giving Michael the benefit of the doubt and not overriding his declaration he was fine at the Carolwood meeting? They should have basically called him a liar to his face and taken Kenny’s side? How disrespectful is that? Michael assured everyone at the meeting he was fine. He had his doctor present to back him up. Murray was mad at Ortega for sending Michael home and told him to mind his business. I can’t find anyone else in the room saying Kenny’s assessment of Michael's physical condition was hysterical. They did however accept Michael's word and his doctors word when they said he was fine. I don't think they needed to pay Lady Katherine billions of dollars for doing that.

 

[serendipity]

If I'm not mistaken I think it was Kenny Ortega who testified that this show was different than MJ's previous tours and was going to be a lot more complex with lots tech stuff involved, illusions, costume changes, different stage sets for every song etc. in addition to choreography. So yes, they expected him to attend more than usual. Not to mention him constantly having new ideas about this and that, how were they supposed to work on all that if he didn't attend regularly?

I'm sure MJ understood all that as he wanted to do a show nobody has ever done before. Despite expectations though, he still attended whenever he could/wanted.

 

[J5master]

Ortega said phillips told him that he was being hysterical and the meeting at Carolwood. Ortega said MJ caught him before he left, said he agreed with Ortega and he understood what he was trying to do. Of COURSE MJ said not to worry, because he didnt want him to worry lol But MJ repeatedly talked about being tired and sore, not wanting to do 50 shows with the schedule that they had set (but yes eventually he went along with it because he didn't have much of a choice as they had already been put out there, and he NEEDED to perform them, so I'm not saying MJ never knew about the shows), MJ did NOT want to come to rehearsals and I think Phillips was the one who said MJ was MAD but was being polite about it. Prince testified that MJ was pissed and stressed.

Yes I'm sure in the beginning, MJ was super excited and was ready to take over the world and conquer those shows and do a bunch of movies and do a bunch of albums and be awesome (as those notes said). I wish he got the chance. But those notes also made me raise an eyebrow - I don't think it was in testimony when each of those notes were made in the timeline, like were they made at the same time? So please if someone knows this, let me know. I do know that in the same note that MJ said "Tohme away from my money" he also asked where is the money for 50 concerts, which doesn't say that he liked or didn't like the idea of 50 concerts either way. But it does say he was questioning them in some capacity. IN that same note, he said "Phillips is conflict" and "where is my house". Its hard for me to tell the context of these notes, but it does tell me that at some point MJ had a lot of questions and was possibly frustrated.

Travis and Ortega and everyone else who has testified and had worked with MJ on more than just TII always said that MJ only attended rehearsals a couple of times to run through the show. Kenny and Mj would have meetings, not rehearsals, to go over creative ideas. In addition to the rehearsals they made MJ go to, MJ was working privately with Travis - which is all he needed to do because THAT was his rehearsal, to basically remember the choreography and come up with new ones if they wanted to, but everyone testified - and we also know from watching - that all of the routines were pretty much the same from his past tours. New stuff, things folks never seen before, new technology - that is a CONSTANT thing for MJ. MJ didn't just start wanting to be bigger and better when TII came around. But after they figure out what MJ wanted done, did MJ need to be there to watch them build the thing? No. "You build the house, I'll come in and paint the front door" is what MJ said. So there is no reason that MJ missing about a week over the course of 3 months would make anyone go nuts, especially when he wasn't supposed to be at rehearsals everyday in the first place. It is literally weeks/days before the start of the concerts, for a production that big, no one should be freaking out if MJ came or didn't come to rehearsals (especially when MJ was coming to rehearsals everyday in May) because everything SHOULD have been pretty much figured out and MJ SHOULD have been getting his rest to prepare to give it 100%. But because dates were pushed up, they had less time to get it together. (again major parts of the production that were already designed and ready to go had not been built and they only had a couple of weeks!)

People forget that MJ was so strong. Just because someone testified to seeing him ONE DAY and he said he was fine does not mean everything was sunshine and rainbows (especially in the case of Katherine, as he obviously didn't want Katherine to worry). He fell several feet on a bridge that pretty much gave him chronic back pain ever since but MJ finished the show as if nothing happened and no one was any wiser until after they heard he collapsed and was sent to the hospital. And there are plenty of moments like this where he was going through EXTREME pain, not even when he was doing shows (so you can't blame it on adrenaline), and MJ was making public appearances and doing his thing and no one ever knew. So I totally believe if Katherine or another Jackson talked to him at some point and everything seemed fine. Doesn't mean it was. And it also depends on WHEN they talked to him. If they talked to him in May, well, yes he WAS fine. But he could be better as he was getting put on a propofol drip that wasn't giving him real sleep, which would come to a head in June.

I think...its easy to oversimplify what was going on. No one EXPECTED that MJ would die or conspired (well...I can't say that for sure about Murray >

 

[MIST]

They were the ones that hired Murray to keep watch over MJ every night.

AEG didn´t know that Murray was staying there every night.
They had no idea Murray was there to treat Michael´s insomnia.
AEG suspected that Michael took drugs but they thought it was Klein who gave it to him.
If they knew Murray was staying there at night they would probably wonder what Murray was doing.
Michael was dehydrated but to give a nutrient drip doesn´t take the whole night.
AEG didn´t know about the oxygen bottles.

 

[J5master]

AEG didn´t know that Murray was staying there every night.
They had no idea Murray was there to treat Michael´s insomnia.
AEG suspected that Michael took drugs but they thought it was Klein who gave it to him.
If they knew Murray was staying there at night they would probably wonder what Murray was doing.
Michael was dehydrated but to give a nutrient drip doesn´t take the whole night.
AEG didn´t know about the oxygen bottles.

They were wondering what Murray was doing, there were emails back and forth...something to the effect of "you'd never guess where Murray was last night" (at a nightclub instead of attending to MJ) - complaining that Murray wasn't really doing his job.
Yes they suspected MJ took drugs which is why they hired Murray to keep MJ in check. They said they had people in the day, they needed someone at night. Murray was the guy.
As far as WHAT Murray was prescribing MJ, of course they didn't know, they just expected him to take care of the situation. Murray DID ask for a bunch of medical equipment to which AEG did not respond to.

 

[Victory22]

J5master,
I have a lot of respect for you because I know you're a loving MJ fan and if you want to talk this out it's okay by me. I understand your anger and your wanting to find someone to punish. I (myself) wanted to rip the heads off any and everyone around MJ the first year after his death and maybe a little longer. His senseless death was simply too much to bear for a very long time but I'm recovering. I wanted someone to direct my fury toward and the Jackson’s started throwing out all their conspiracy talk and Murray (the scapegoat BS). It threw me for a moment. After a lot of healing, grieving and gathering the facts however, I understand how wrong it is to lash out at people who had no way of knowing about the nightly Propofol infusions. I have no doubt AEG is a greedy “ machine”, capitalist pigs and all the other names they’ve been called but there is nothing that supports the claims they worked Michael to death, instructed Murray to give him Propofol or plotted him bodily harm in any way. They wanted the shows and Michael wanted the shows. It was a business deal that I think could have worked if Murray had been an ethical human being.

 

[terrell]

I get angry when I read stuff like this. MJ died for nothing and from something so silly.

 

[J5master]

Thanks Victory.

I mean, I honestly was fine with Conrad Murray being punished and the truth about him being out and that being it. As far as I'm concerned as long as he got called out, everything else is a bonus (though he really didn't get what he deserved which is a shame). I'm not really looking for someone to lash out at. And until now I really didn't pay attention to the AEG stuff because I thought it was unnecessary like many here seem to think. But when I actually read the transcripts, I see why Katherine would want to go after them.

Honestly, at this point, based on the way they treated MJ - even if I didn't believe that they had a hand in the outcomes of his death, they deserve every attack they get coming their way. And this is coming from a place of...not really looking for someone to blame, but just a desire for due justice in a world where there is no justice for stuff like that. I don't want to be content to say that businesses should be run in the way that AEG ran it, at the expense, exploitation, disrespect and degradation of that magnitude. For that alone they should be sued (note this is also coming from a place that believes there were some racial undertones to their disrespect as well - subtle, but there).

But in addition to that, I personally believe they are liable for the outcomes of what happened due to the fact that they hired Murray. They were wrong for ignoring things that were clearly in front of their face to pursue their own agendas (as in, you don't have to know exactly WHAT Murray was doing to MJ to know that what he was doing wasn't right, as ortega demonstrated himself - and Murray was NOT ethical, and AEG knew that, and I believe this is exactly why they wanted him on their payroll). Its not about if they plotted it, they obviously didn't (thooough that may be debatable, I wouldn't put anything pass anyone when it comes to MJ and how hungry people were to bring him down, but I personally dont believe they were purposely trying to kill him). But its negligence leading into more negligence. If people testified to say that MJ was totally fine and had no problems until the night of the 25th, then I would be less inclined to say this. But it is clear that MJ did have problems and everyone knew about it, including AEG - and many of AEG's underhanded legal, financial and other tactics shows that even if Murray HAD said "hey I've got MJ on a propofol drip, he's been on it for 60 days" to them...they would have been like 'as long as he gets to rehearsals." They aren't exactly doctors either. They aren't concerned with finding out of what Murray was doing was right or not, but as employers when it is clear that Murray was NOT doing his job - at all or correctly, then they should have taken action, but that was not convenient for them because there were more important things in their minds.

I mean, many may say that's just business and folks should suck it up and get over it, but me personally - I just don't feel that way. Not just AEG, but so many other companies like them that do far worse. I do not think its far fetched to even say the word 'conspiracy' when it comes to this...or at least that its a big machine that one person just can't fight. I don't think its far fetched because of the patterns that have happened in MJ's life. Time and time again we've seen how low people will go despite all obligation, responsibility or just moral duty. Even today, we still see it. I don't think AEG is exempt from that large list of people who would stoop that low. The hefty dollar amount Katherine is asking for is a small price to pay (especially for them) for being a factor in MJ's death (which I believe), and it is a small price to pay for treating MJ anything less than what he was worth during the duration of that project.

 

[Victory22]

Well Mother lost and the legal system has spoken just like they spoke when Michael was acquitted in 2005. They found AEG not guilty of negligence in Michael’s death so Mother can appeal and lose again or let it go. In my opinion she should be charged with negligence in MJ's death herself. If AEG should have known there was a problem with his health so should she. Katherine also ignored the stress her son was under and kept bleeding him dry for money even when she knew he was in financial trouble. If she hadn't been so needy and demanding and saved some of the millions he gave her over the years maybe he wouldn't have had to work so hard and gotten more rest. Maybe he could have gotten more sleep if she wasn't always pressuring him to help his siblings and daddy Joe. We can maybe all day long but the bottom line is NONE of their hands are clean when it comes to treatment and respect Michael deserved. (And that includes his family)

It’s over so KJ should do the right thing for once in her life by Michael and stop spending his children’s inheritance on a case she will never win.

 

[J5master]

What about those four jurors who claimed that the way the verdict was worded did not allow them to deliberate effectively?

I don't think katherine's hands are clean but I think MJ thought she was lesser of all the evils in the family, and I think he thought that for a reason. I believe he was most like her, and he talked to her the most. So in that way, while I don't excuse her actions over the years, I don't equate her to the malicious vultures who wanted nothing but to see MJ fall. She may have been self serving like the rest of the family, but she definitely wanted to see her son succeed and most importantly, live. I have to give her that much.

I dislike the Jacksons and the way they treated MJ, but at the same time they are family and I do believe they loved MJ. Every family has dysfunction and a lot of their actions are misguided and self serving, even to this day. Just thinking of my family, I know that - they don't always do things in their relative's best interests, but you still have that bond and you still love each other. I don't equate them to AEG or Murray.

I think Katherine should try (especially if there is any weight to what the jurors said), anything to bring justice to MJ is worth it (money to financially drain them, bringing out the truth or otherwise). If the Estate is honest and doing their jobs, then those kids are set for life.

 

[Victory22]

What about those four jurors who claimed that the way the verdict was worded did not allow them to deliberate effectively?

*Reply: What about them? It is what it is and the Jackson's lost the case. That's the system we live under just like in MJ's trial when one juror said later they thought MJ may have been guilty. Too bad.

I don't think katherine's hands are clean but I think MJ thought she was lesser of all the evils in the family, and I think he thought that for a reason. I believe he was most like her, and he talked to her the most. So in that way, while I don't excuse her actions over the years, I don't equate her to the malicious vultures who wanted nothing but to see MJ fall. She may have been self serving like the rest of the family, but she definitely wanted to see her son succeed and most importantly, live. I have to give her that much.

*Reply: She wanted to see him succeed so there would be more for her not because it was healthy or wholesome for her son. She may not have been malicious but greed and indifference is just as bad.

I dislike the Jacksons and the way they treated MJ, but at the same time they are family and I do believe they loved MJ. Every family has dysfunction and a lot of their actions are misguided and self serving, even to this day. Just thinking of my family, I know that - they don't always do things in their relative's best interests, but you still have that bond and you still love each other. I don't equate them to AEG or Murray.

*Reply: Sure, they were so bonded he made sure to only see or talk to them when he absolutely had to and cut them all out of his will. Mother was the only one allowed to visit and the kids hardly knew her after his death.

I think Katherine should try (especially if there is any weight to what the jurors said), anything to bring justice to MJ is worth it (money to financially drain them, bringing out the truth or otherwise). If the Estate is honest and doing their jobs, then those kids are set for life.

*Reply: The jurors have no power other then the verdict they already rendered at trial not media interviews after the fact. The verdict was not guilty so KJ can spend more of PP&B’s inheritance on a case she can’t win for her lazy, broke cubs but it won't change a thing. Then she'll owe AEG even more money.

 

[Tygger]

Um is there a REASON why everyone is so against the AEG trial?

J5Master, not everyone was against the trial.

I see you have had a chance to read the transcripts as per the details in your posts. Bravo!

I am unsure how much of the trial discussion thread you reviewed on this forum. If you decide to review the posts from that thread, you will have a better understanding of the responses you are receiving in this one.

You will also see a thread that discussed the verdict. In that thread, a poll taken by MJJC members showed 80 of those polled thought AEG was liable compared to 86 feeling otherwise. Pretty close eh?

Please do not miss the posts from Juror#27.

If I am remembering correctly, Michael’s notes were not allowed into evidence.

The four jurors affidavits were used to petition for a new trial from the judge. The judge disagreed with a new trial so, the plaintiffs’ legal team appealed.

 

[MIST]

Murray was NOT ethical, and AEG knew that, and I believe this is exactly why they wanted him on their payroll)

AEG didn´t know Murray wasn´t ethical.
Only Michael and Murray knew what happened during the nights and Michael didn´t know that Murray left him alone.
But anyway AEG didn´t want Murray at all, they wanted Michael to have another doctor, much cheaper.
I think they had a doctor but Michael said no.
Michael insisted to have Murray.

Frank DiLeo asked Murray to check if Michael was taking drugs.
DiLeo knew something was wrong but he didn´t know the doctor was involved.

People said Michael didn´t want to do 50 shows but according to Jacksons he would have done hundreds of shows later with his brothers , if he still was alive

 

[Bubs]

I mean, I honestly was fine with Conrad Murray being punished and the truth about him being out and that being it. As far as I'm concerned as long as he got called out, everything else is a bonus (though he really didn't get what he deserved which is a shame). I'm not really looking for someone to lash out at. And until now I really didn't pay attention to the AEG stuff because I thought it was unnecessary like many here seem to think. But when I actually read the transcripts, I see why Katherine would want to go after them.

You have very rosy picture of why KJ would go after them.

The only reason she went after them and let CM off the hook (no restitution)because she wanted a big money from AEG. Restitution from CM would have been peanuts compared what she could have gotten from AEG and it would have been her and kids money and she would had controlled all of it.

Lets not forget that KJ had no intention to punish AEG, and by offering settlement to AEG twice (could be more but was never published) before the trial started is one damn good indication of it. Had AEG taken KJ's settlement offer, everything would have been swept under the carpets and never to be heard again.
That to me doesn't scream mother wanting to find out what happen to her child, as settlement would have put stop to any discovery process. AEG would have walked away their image unchanged and KJ would have given money to her useless cubs so they never need to work for money ever again (like they tried when MJ was alive).

 

[Victory22]

86 to 80 may be close but it shows a clear majority are not buying Mother and the Jackson's BS anymore. The veil has been lifted and the counterfeit family concern exposed. You can be sure if the poll had been taken the year after Michael’s death his family would have won overwhelmingly.

 

[J5master]

Thanks Tygger. I didn't get a chance to read about Juror #27. Is there a link to a discussion about that?
And not agreeing with the verdict after deliberating for a week on ALL the issues is one thing (re: the 2005 trial). Not being able to be given a chance to deliberate on all the issues they wanted to discuss because of misleading instructions is another.

I believe that AEG knew about Murray being unethical. If Phillips looked into him like he claimed, he'd know that Murray filed for bankruptcy twice. And I think the way Murray was dealing with things post-MJ's death is exactly how he dealt with AEG. His services (as well as his crazy tales about MJ) go out to the highest bidder. And that is exactly what they needed. MJ vouched for Murray, yes, of course he did - because he trusted him. Its a matter of convenience. Murray wasn't much of an issue either way until they had a feeling that MJ was taking drugs. It was then that they decided to adhere to MJ's wishes (and what does that say about this whole project?) - and after the 50 shows were announced, they needed Murray - not another doctor - for those medical records. Phillips words about Murray, praising him until the cows came home, was not indicative of someone who didn't want Murray on board. And AFTER he knew that Murray was not doing his job well, he had no problems keeping him on board regardless.

I can't get around the fact that AEG was SUPER SHADY. And just because things weren't said outright, even at trial they aren't gonna be like, 'yep we're super shady'" LOL doesn't mean that things aren't being said between the lines. And shady is an understatement. Tohme was handling things around the time of the AEG contract. It is quite possible that a LOT of things slipped through the cracks when it came to MJ's knowledge about terms. And I'd rather give MJ the benefit of the doubt than these vultures that were around him. MJ didn't trust Tohme. MJ apparently agreeing to pay ALL production costs? 40 million dollars owed to AEG at the end of the day? Lets read between the lines. If MJ didn't go through with those performances, AEG would have been able to take over his life. Including the ATV catalogue. AEG made a fortune either way it went (which Phillips admitted also), whether MJ did the concerts or died trying. OF course Phillip's word and reputation was on the line, so they would have RATHERED him complete the concerts obviously, but I'm not giving AEG the benefit of the doubt. They knew they were set either way.

Sure you can blame MJ for not being 'adult' enough for handling his own affairs like the media liked to claim at the time - and yes, maybe people have a point about MJ making some mistakes in this situation. Trusting Tohme. Trusting Murray. But that does not make him at fault for his death. Period. That's the same kinda argument people use for other things...'well maybe if the girl wasn't walking alone at night by herself, she wouldn't have gotten murdered." Well, walking alone by yourself at night was definitely NOT a good decision, but that is completely irrelevant because the guy MURDERED her. And she was the victim. Plus we still have no idea what other pressures MJ was under or how he was manipulated into whatever agreements he was in. Its easy to judge standing on the sidelines.

As far as Katherine's motivations, I must admit they don't matter much to me. I'm not going to try and get in her head. All I know for sure is that I'm glad all of this stuff came out. A lot of the testimony happened to further exonerate MJ from previous allegations too (Debbie Rowe's testimony specifically, but of course the media didn't touch that with a ten foot pole). Fans are less likely to accept the simplified version of events people like to repeat. And in an age where people are making tell all books about MJ's life ANYWAY, and fans are buying them in droves - the truth about what MJ was facing leading up to his death is just worth it to me, no matter what Katherine's motivations may be. Im glad all of that information is out there.

 

[MIST]

http://muzikfactorytwo.blogspot.se/2011/06/katherine-jacksons-aeg-lawsuit-is.html

 

[Bubs]

I mean, they cant exactly send AEG to jail can they? Isn't trying to ruin them financially their best option?
If I were her, I would try to strip them of every dime they had too.

I guess you didn't read LA Times about details Jackson's settlement to AEG
Main things:
-It was revealed in court today, that the Jackson family tried to obtain a settlement from AEG Live last January and March and had not yet even received a reply.

-According to the LA Times, Kevin Boyle, an attorney for the Jackson family, said that AEG has not offered to settle “and they haven’t apologized.”

-Kevin Boyle for the Jackson family would not provide details but said AEG’s insurance would have paid, “which means they could have settled the case without them paying a dime of their own money.”

Marvin Putnam, an attorney for AEG, said it was inappropriate to discuss settlement discussions. “We don’t settle matters that are utterly baseless,” he said. “We believe that is the case in this matter. I can’t see why we would consider a settlement as anything other than a shakedown.”


KJ and other crooks knew that even if AEG lost, their insurance would have paid it, not AEG. So there was nothing like ruining them financially. One more tidbit, J4 worked with AEG during the trial. Dignity is not quality that you could describe most of Jacksons.

I personally hope that those behind of this lawsuit get what they want. I want them to be buried under the tons of $ coins (literally) so they cannot claw they way out of it and don't see them ever again.

 

[J5master]

Having read that link - yes I'm well aware about the Jacksons' self-serving tendencies. I have no doubt that this is a grab for AEG's money. I think in THIS case though, at least their money grabbing tendencies are directed at the right people.

For instance, I knew about the AllGood stuff when the Jacksons were begging MJ to go on tour with them. I knew about the Rowe discrepancies. And I know that MJ has always said himself that his family are greedy folks, and he has stayed away from them. But he has also always said that they are still his family and he still loved them, and that like all families, they have their dysfunctions. This is NOT to excuse what they did and CONTINUE to do, but its more to try to achieve a balanced perspective instead of throwing stones at them without looking at it with a bird's eye view. I concede that perhaps this is a shakedown, and that what you posted does allude to that Bubs and MIST, but again - I do know that based on the facts of the case that came out, AEG was liable. So whether Katherine doesn't care how she gets the money, as long as she gets the money - fine. But based on everything that came out, I personally am glad we have the information that we have because of it.

In essence, despite everything, I personally do not believe that the jacksons - especially KATHERINE - did not care about MJ. I believe a lot of their actions are misguiding and self serving and exploited him and maybe continues to exploit him, and that is their fatal flaw...but I think Katherine loved her son deeply regardless. I believe MJ loved Katherine deeply regardless. Its irrational and it makes no sense, but familial love is sometimes like that.

 

[Bubs]

I do know that based on the facts of the case that came out, AEG was liable.

Can I just correct your sentence a bit:
based on the how I interpret the facts of the case that came out, AEG was liable
:cheeky:


I'm sorry for being so short with my replies, but most of us have been through this when we followed the trial minute by minute and read every single details from direct tweets from court house. I don't really have much to say as all the energy went away with trial and outcome.
Like Victory said it earlier, AEG might have been arseholes but they didn't kill Michael, and my addition to it, this trial should never ever had happened.

 

[J5master]

Yep, I've stated previously this is my interpretation and my opinion