Motown 25: Brief Rehearsal Clips

[Tygger]

Good thing Gordy had the good sense to allow Michael that solo that did not enrich Motown but cemented his 25th television special in history.

Completely illogical the executors would block the footage when the Estate they represent will be enriched. As the estate was said to still be in debt, any amount received should be maximized and not denied only because it does not fall under the Estate/Sony contract.

As they represent Michael Jackson, it is illogical not to put full support behind one of his most iconic performances.

At least no one suggested this footage is exploitative of Michael's image.

 

[Tygger]

Motown has the rights of the footage. But Michael Jackson's Estate has the rights for Michael Jackson's music and usage of his image. And Michael Jackson's record company is not Motown since 1975. Since 1975 Michael Jackson's record company is CBS/Epic Records.

MJ Estate owns EMI publishing through the Sony/ATV catalog. The Motown Broadway show in New York, U.S. has a nice, small note acknowledging Sony/ATV for allowing the songs to be used.

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Gee... It's not like they blocked the entire performance, they just didn't include more unreleased rehearsals footage.

It's funny cause Suzanne De Passe was quoted saying Michael was relucant to let them even film his solo rehearsals and we're still so eager for it to be released. Wonder what would have happened if the Estate was the one to release this sort of rehearsals after this quote.

I'm not that sad though. I wasn't expecting it anyway...

 

[OnirMJ]

Good thing Gordy had the good sense to allow Michael that solo that did not enrich Motown but cemented his 25th television special in history.

Completely illogical the executors would block the footage when the Estate they represent will be enriched. As the estate was said to still be in debt, any amount received should be maximized and not denied only because it does not fall under the Estate/Sony contract.

As they represent Michael Jackson, it is illogical not to put full support behind one of his most iconic performances.

At least no one suggested this footage is exploitative of Michael's image.

I think it absolutely did "enrich Motown" because of that MJ's performance everyone wanted to see it. They probably sold the rights to TV stations... And even when MJ released it twice, on HIStory and on Thriller 25 - some money went to Motown for using their footage. It benefited both MJ and Motown.

10 minutes of MJ rehearsals or 10 seconds on 6 hours Motown DVD would not benefit MJ's Estate at all. That box set will not sell very well. Who would pay 30$ or 60$ for 3 or 6 DVD's for 10 minutes of MJ's rehearsal? Few hardcore fans and that's it. Others would just download it for free or watch it on youtube.

This way MJ's Estate will release it eventually on their own box set with all MJ's performances and rehearsals or on some Thriller special deluxe or anniversary edition and in that way that performance will be more lucrative to them.

 

[ivy]

^^

Bingo.

No one is saying they wouldn't have made money from Motown release such as royalties and possibly some fees. But a release by themselves would bring more money.

Let' simplify this even more. Assume this brings then $1 in royalties and fees, where as their own release brings $10 - totally made up numbers. Which one is better? And if the goal is to maximize the amount received why would they okay a small revenue while they can earn MORE?

So I guess now what we need is common sense and a little math.

10 minutes of MJ rehearsals or 10 seconds on 6 hours Motown DVD would not benefit MJ's Estate at all. That box set will not sell very well. Who would pay 30$ or 60$ for 3 or 6 DVD's for 10 minutes of MJ's rehearsal? Few hardcore fans and that's it.

I'm quite certain that 99% of the fans complaining on this thread about not having the full rehearsal footage would have bought it even though it was included. They would have watched it for free.

It actually amuses me a lot.

 

[Birchey]

99% oh no 100% Of Michael Jackson fans suppoert Michael 100%

 

[OnirMJ]

I'm not sure what you tried to say in your last 2 posts, but I have to agree with ivy on this one. A lot of fans who are complaining about this now would not buy it. It is a fact that there are a lot of boycotters among MJ fans who are boycotting Michael Jackson's releases. That's why Xscape peaked at #2 and not at #1 as it should have. That is a sad fact, but it is the Michael Jackson reality. His own fans are not buying his music. So how can you be sure that all Michael Jackson fans would buy $30 or $60 set for a 10 minutes (or less) rehearsal footage??

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Yes + I am not boycotting anything but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have bought a Motown boxset that MJ is less than 50% of it. These All-Stars Boxsets are usually expensive cause they got 3-10 CDs\DVDs and I'm not intrested in anyone but Michael. So yeah.,..

 

[Tygger]

OnirMJ, you yourself said Michael was not on Motown when he sang Billie Jean onstage so how was Motown enriched when Michael became a supernova with Thriller? During that time, no one, I repeat, no one knew the effect Michael's solo performance would have. The audience did not know Michael was going to perform solo.

Please note there are many fans of Motown music so this box set will do fine and the Estate will benefit and accept those monies. To interest fans of MJ only, the full rehearsals would be the draw. Even non-MJ fans would purchase that but, yes, so-called common sense reasons Michael's iconic performance and it's rehearsal could not demand that type of purchasing power and diminishes it to a free value on YT.

Interesting the same who dismissed Xscape being downloaded for free because of Sony's stream and the rejection of a worldwide release date which hurt its sales suggest now that MJ fans would only download the rehearsals for free which hurts his estate.

Forgive me if I do not hold my breath for that special, non-existent Thriller project via Estate/Sony. The Estate already missed their chance to honor the man and dare I say his most iconic performance here.

 

[Birchey]

I'm not sure what you tried to say in your last 2 posts, but I have to agree with ivy on this one. A lot of fans who are complaining about this now would not buy it. It is a fact that there are a lot of boycotters among MJ fans who are boycotting Michael Jackson's releases. That's why Xscape peaked at #2 and not at #1 as it should have. That is a sad fact, but it is the Michael Jackson reality. His own fans are not buying his music. So how can you be sure that all Michael Jackson fans would buy $30 or $60 set for a 10 minutes (or less) rehearsal footage??

NO Xscape didn't peak at No 2 because of any fan issues, for god sake some fans bought 10+ issues of it, it failed on its musical merit. His own fans are not buying his music, you are correct on this one as its not his damn music anymore, and YES YES YES Fans would rather spend $30 or $60 Dollars on REAL MJ than some upto date watered down, "New" MJ release. People seems to forget there are fans before ITunes, Before this and that streaming bullshit numbers that means nothing in 2 months except in the bank accounts of sheep herders who profit on this bullshit, fans who spent the early part of there life listening to MJ on vinyl, recording him on the radio on Cassette, waiting for the real magic. People remember Motown 83, if you want to side with 99% of MJ fans illegally downloading it, we call you as number one legal buyer, please name the other 99.

 

[OnirMJ]

I just want to say that I'm buying it. Can someone please help me with this. I want all MJ footage. Should I buy 3 DVD set or I have to buy 6 DVD set? At amazon there is only 3 DVD set available. I found regular 1 DVD at ebay, but I'm assuming it's just the main show?

 

[OnirMJ]

NO Xscape didn't peak at No 2 because of any fan issues, for god sake some fans bought 10+ issues of it, it failed on its musical merit. His own fans are not buying his music, you are correct on this one as its not his damn music anymore, and YES YES YES Fans would rather spend $30 or $60 Dollars on REAL MJ than some upto date watered down, "New" MJ release.

That is just not true. There are boycotters out there that are not buying anything MJ because of their personal feud with Sony. So being Xscape (which also had all 8 untouched songs!!!) or Motown 25 performance and rehearsal - those people will not buy it. And those people did hurt Xscape sales. That is a fact.

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Failed its musical merit? there was less than 1k difference between Xscape and 1st place on its first week. Pretty sure it would have peaked if all the hypocritical boycotters - those who "boycott' the album but listen to their ILLEGAL "copy" everyday bought Xscspe - it would have charted 1# easily.

That's an odd thing to say since overall it outsold most albums that debuted at 1# - but nevermind.

I don't care for this tone btw... not that you would mind anyway.

 

[OnirMJ]

People remember Motown 83, if you want to side with 99% of MJ fans illegally downloading it, we call you as number one legal buyer, please name the other 99.

Again, I don't understand those numbers like I didn't understand those 2 posts above. I've never said there are 99% boycotters if that's what you meant. I'd say that there is at least 30% of all MJ fans that are boycotters. So that leaves you 70% (or less) of buyers. And not all of them are willing to buy someone's elses album (Queen's Greatest Hits) or Motown 3 DVD or 6 DVD set just to get 10 or less minutes of MJ.

Example, how many fans own this DVD? I do.

http://www.amazon.com/We-are-World-...d=1412466659&sr=8-1&keywords=we+are+the+world

I'd say less than 10% of all MJ fans own that DVD, because it was not released as Michael Jackson's project and it's not MJ only, but MJ appears for maybe 10 minutes + in the music video. But I'm sure all of the fans watched it on youtube. If that footage was unreleased and MJ Estate released it now as MJ only DVD - that would sell a lot more. That is the point.

 

[InvincibleMJ]

OnirMJ, you yourself said Michael was not on Motown when he sang Billie Jean onstage so how was Motown enriched when Michael became a supernova with Thriller? During that time, no one, I repeat, no one knew the effect Michael's solo performance would have. The audience did not know Michael was going to perform solo.

Michael's fan base increased so as a result more people were interested in Michael's entire discography. Our existence is making Motown (or its newer brand versions) money cause we're buying Michael's solo albums from motown and the Jackson 5 stuff as oppose to people who just like the Motown stuff and buy random albums occasionally. Motown did ride (and benefited) on Michael's 80's success and released many collections, some of them were great (One Day In Your Life 81\Farewell My Summer Love 84) but some were really dumb IMO (like all the Diana Ross-MJ albums and random collections).

Don't forget Michael had his own conditions to perform in Motown 25 - He said he'd only do it if he'd be able to do a solo song too, Did he not? that itself supports what Onir said.

 

[barbee0715]

Well, I don't have the DVD of 'We are the World' but I do have it on VHS. Still have 'Motown 25 and Making of Thriller' on VHS. But if I didn't I would buy on DVD. I don't usually rebuy something I have and still watch or listen to. I would seriously think about it if ALL the rehearsals were on here, including Diana's.

Onir, I wanted to tell you that there is a complete description of the 6 DVD set on the Time Life web site. The last 3 DVDs are interviews with songwriters. Producers and Stevie Wonders rehearsal.
They also have a 6 DVD set with 8 CDs.

 

[OnirMJ]

Onir, I wanted to tell you that there is a complete description of the 6 DVD set on the Time Life web site. The last 3 DVDs are interviews with songwriters. Producers and Stevie Wonders rehearsal.
They also have a 6 DVD set with 8 CDs.

I think I'll buy 3 DVD set from amazon. 6 DVD is too much and too expensive for me. That short clips of MJ rehearsal are on first 3, right?

 

[barbee0715]

I think I'll buy 3 DVD set from amazon. 6 DVD is too much and too expensive for me. That short clips of MJ rehearsal are on first 3, right?

yes. It looks like it. Also the show itself is extended. That'll be cool-20 min more of what we saw that night.

 

[morinen]

That is just not true. There are boycotters out there that are not buying anything MJ because of their personal feud with Sony. So being Xscape (which also had all 8 untouched songs!!!) or Motown 25 performance and rehearsal - those people will not buy it. And those people did hurt Xscape sales. That is a fact.

I believe Birchey is right. The active boycotters are a minority that doesn't register on the general sales numbers. The overall decline of sales (11M Invincible vs. 1+M Xscape) is due to people not feeling MJ anymore. When he was releasing his albums, people were expecting magic. Now that he's gone, the magic is gone, as far as general public is concerned. And inviting new producers to re-write the songs sure isn't helping to preserve the magic.

As to the Motown 25 release, all we can say is that extra MJ footage would have helped sales, not hurt them. And it would've made many people happy. I would understand the estate's desire to hold on to it if there was some kind of grand plan to release it on their side, but I can bet you $500 that in the next 5 years it won't happen. This DVD was the most fitting place for this footage that will come in a long time. And as we have seen, the estate and Sony can't even make a concept album with more or less coherent material on it, and anything with any rehearsal footage longer than 5 seconds we are yet to see. So your hopes for MJ-only release with this kind of footage, based on the previous release record, is nothing but wistful thinking.

 

[Tygger]

Some do not seem to be aware that Motown is the ONLY music label that is a musical genre in and of itself.

Let. That. Simmer.

This project will do just fine for Time-Life regardless of how much footage there is of Michael in rehearsal and whether any MJ fans purchases it and any realist would know that. Time-Life offerings are usually quite successful in general and it is often because their products offer so much entertainment/informational value to the consumer as evident in the packaging. The Estate will be enriched from this venture and not by the purposely and ridiculously low phantom numbers listed in this thread.

Again, the amount of footage of Michael during rehearsals is to pique the purchasing power of some MJ fans, not all fans and definitely not all purchasers. There are some MJ fans that are aware of the grand talent and timeless music from Motown’s artists. There was a reason Joe wanted his sons on that label and one can see that during this anniversary special. The success of this project does not hinge on footage of Michael in rehearsal; that notion shows ignorance to the legend of Motown and is simply ridiculous.

Xscape peaked in the U.S. at number two because the Estate decided to distribute free copies of the cd to Cirque Immortal/One attendees. That number of free cds is the difference between Xscape and I believe it was the Black Keys at the time. That unwise decision was dismissed by a few here in favor of the boycotter concept without ever noting the weak strength of those boycotting fans or noting that many illegal copies were directly related to Sony’s streams of each song and Xscape’s staggered release dates around the world instead of a universal release date.

OnirMJ, I own WATW on VHS and DVD. To suggest anyone brought that only for the limited footage of Michael is a bit narrow in view. The world does not revolve around Michael Jackson. WATW was a great achievement and a grand collection of talents which was, I dare say, the major reason many brought it including MJ fans. It will be the same reason the Motown25 package will be successful for Time-Life regardless of the Estate not releasing the full rehearsals. To your point however, if WATW was released today, the Estate most likely would agree to that ten minutes of Michael being released as Columbia Records (the label WATW was released on) is now part of Sony. It would succeed again, because of the collection of talent, not solely Michael’s ten minutes.

Don't forget Michael had his own conditions to perform in Motown 25 - He said he'd only do it if he'd be able to do a solo song too, Did he not? that itself supports what Onir said.

InvincibleTal, no, it supports what I said: Gordy had the good sense to let Michael sing solo. That decision was made without any foreseeable, financial benefit to himself or his label, Motown. If the only way to have J5 reunite was for Michael to sing solo then, Gordy was wisely fine with it. Everything else is hindsight so Gordy deserves that credit.

I agree Michael’s fanbase increased during Thriller. For lack of better terms, the older fans enjoyed the reunion of J5 and were aware of Michael and his talents while the newer fans were curious about Michael as they were introduced to him after Motown25 and the Thriller video and it is same difference after Michael’s passing. As evident on this forum, some fans are very resistant to Michael’s full career and prefer to focus on Michael’s solo career minus the Motown era and sometimes even OTW/Thriller eras. The success of Motown’s releases in the 80’s depended mostly on those new fans as the old fans already had those releases.

Lastly, it is not a fact that Estate releases garner more revenue than a venture they receive royalties and/or fees (such as licensing) on. One only has to look at Cirque for that fact.


Adding:

Our existence is making Motown (or its newer brand versions) money cause we're buying Michael's solo albums from motown and the Jackson 5 stuff as oppose to people who just like the Motown stuff and buy random albums occasionally.

No. Motown is legend and not only because of J5 and/or Michael; it was everyone on their roster. That music will always be purchased and will be sought after for licensing. That is most likely the main reason Sony/ATV acquired EMI.

 

[ivy]

The Estate will be enriched from this venture and not by the purposely and ridiculously low phantom numbers listed in this thread.

serious question : Standard version of this sells for $30 on Amazon. How much of that is going to go to MJ Estate do you think?

Nobody is denying that Estate will receive some sort of royalties/fees for at least Billie Jean song - aka enriched as you call it- but I imagine it to be common sense that it wouldn't be much or as much as they can earn from a MJ only release. My made up $1 number actually equals to 3.4% of the sale price. I wouldn't consider it as "ridiculously low" given the nature of this release - meaning considering Motown, Universal and royalties for all other artists.

Allow me to make it a lot more clearer: Let's assume this was a MJ release. Take the price of $30. Reduce 25% for packaging cost (source : http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/music-royalties6.htm , why : to find to wholesale profit) which brings us to $22.50 . Michael has the highest royalty levels - 37% , well let's say 40% and that would mean if this was MJ release at $30 , Michael (and/or his Estate) would earn $9 from it.

I would think that we can all agree there's no way Michael's Estate would be "enriched" from this Motown release at the same level as a MJ only Estate release. In other words, is anyone thinks Estate is getting anywhere close to $9 from this Motown release? This would also demonstrate the royalty/fee only $1 number isn't ridiculously low. If you go with the above calculation of $9 royalty fee and then divide it among all the artists that performed at Motown special, you would realize that $1 royalty for MJ only was quite good.

PS: If anyone didn't realize it after all this time until now let me point out that none of my assumptions are random. They are more like educated assumptions based on knowledge and available information. Of course they could be wrong hence why I try to point out they aren't perfect but they are also pretty far away from BS. Sure people might disagree and yes like I said I might be wrong and I welcome any discussion and correction but such require more than cursing or merely calling it BS.

Lastly, it is not a fact that Estate releases garner more revenue than a venture they receive royalties and/or fees (such as licensing) on. One only has to look at Cirque for that fact.

Cirque isn't a royalty and/or fee or licensing type of venture. Estate and Cirque is equal partners (50-50% joint venture). So Cirque MJ shows are an official Estate release with 50% stake in them. Cirque shows would bring more revenues than only royalties and/or fees type of venture -such as Motown 25 release here.

 

[AtlasAir]

Lest we not forget there are 343452 other performances on the DVD which may or may not go out to the respective people. Unless certain performers were just given $ to show up and that's it.

Who knows.

 

[Tygger]

Ivy, it is rather amusing that you attempt to dismiss this project as somehow smaller or potentially less profitable than an Estate/Sony collaboration considering the Estate/Sony collaborations. It seems your only explanation why the Estate blocked the full rehearsals is no monies for the Estate/Sony duo despite what some may consider a disrespect to the artist and the man the Estate represents and the disappointment of his fans. Not to mention short-sighted thinking.

Again, Sony/ATV owns EMI so Michael’s Estate will be enriched by much more than just Billie Jean.

Fortunately, Marvin Gaye fans and Stevie Wonder fans will enjoy their rehearsals and compare that to their performances. I believe such comparisons are beneficial to the artists’ legacy. I believe Gaye/Wonder may gain new fans who will respect their genius and those fans may purchase their music due to this venture by Motown/Time-Life that Michael’s Estate will be enriched by. Hopefully you understand the gain is in the purchase of this product and future products by the artists; that is not a short-sighted thought. Some may disagree only because the Estate/Sony does not directly benefit despite Michael's Estate benefiting. Indeed.

Lastly, it is not a fact that Estate releases garner more revenue than a venture they receive royalties and/or fees (such as licensing) on. One only has to look at Cirque for that fact.

I should have clarified and have written Estate/Sony releases, eh?

Fully agree the Cirque/Estate venture is much more profitable that the Estate/Sony releases. I personally credit Cirque’s artistic control and promotion for that success. This venture does include fees such as licensing and royalties which even the Jackson brothers benefit from. Thank you for supporting my point.

Adding: you also have support my previous point in this thread and the Queen thread that the Estate prefers not to acknowledge the man they represent unless it is an Estate/Sony collaboration. That is short-sighted to me as well.

 

[Tony R]

Michael in his Billie Jeans. Love it!

 

[OnirMJ]

I believe Birchey is right. The active boycotters are a minority that doesn't register on the general sales numbers. The overall decline of sales (11M Invincible vs. 1+M Xscape) is due to people not feeling MJ anymore. When he was releasing his albums, people were expecting magic. Now that he's gone, the magic is gone, as far as general public is concerned.

You can't seriously compare 2001 album sales and 2014 album sales. Also you can't seriously compare new studio album with a posthumous release! The fact is that there are a lot of fans out there, minority of course, but not insignificant number who are boycotting new MJ releases - either because of their personal feud with Sony, either because of their conspiracy theory about fake last will, either because they worship nut cases like Karen Faye.. Either way that number is not small and they are hurting Michael Jackson's sales, his posthumous career and legacy because of their personal selfish reasons. The fact is that Xscape would have been #1 album if only few thousands of those boycotting fans bought the album.

 

[OnirMJ]

You can also curse double, but it's not going to change the fact that people buy/trade/download leaks and there's a group who don't buy official releases. If this wasn't a fact, there wouldn't be a very popular 2000 watts section.

Just wanted to say that you are wrong about this one. 2000 Watts is wonderful place to share some fanmade material, TV performances and footage, songs and remixes that are hard to find like old single releases from '80 and '90... Stuff like that. The problem in my opinion is leaking of unreleased material and unreleased concerts that can potentially be released. The problem is not sharing among fans, but the fact that those stuff spreads everywhere and the next day you have unreleased MJ material all over the internet and torrents, even some radio stations! So sharing hard to find released stuff and stuff that will not damage MJ's posthumous career - YES, leaking unreleased material - NO.

 

[OnirMJ]

and anything with any rehearsal footage longer than 5 seconds we are yet to see. So your hopes for MJ-only release with this kind of footage, based on the previous release record, is nothing but wistful thinking.

This Is It movie?

 

[OnirMJ]

Fully agree the Cirque/Estate venture is much more profitable that the Estate/Sony releases.

Immortal soundtrack. Also both shows are using MJ's music and his record company is still Epic Records/Sony Music - so they had to agree on the usage of the music. So I'd call it Estate+Sony/Cirque venture.

 

[ivy]

Ivy, it is rather amusing that you attempt to dismiss this project as somehow smaller or potentially less profitable than an Estate/Sony collaboration considering the Estate/Sony collaborations.

Again, Sony/ATV owns EMI so Michael’s Estate will be enriched by much more than just Billie Jean.

First of all please reading comprehension. I did mention royalties and fees, fees meaning catalog management fees. and I wrote "at least for Billie Jean" with "at least" meaning other fees /royalties are also possible. So as I said before I agree they would be "enriched" due to royalties and fees.

However the rest is not an "attempt", it's a common sense fact - which I don't see as dismissing. In my opinion there's nothing negative or dismissing in saying "yes this does bring some revenues but not as much as a MJ only release". I don't see it as a bad thing but plain simple reality. And just calling it "amusing" doesn't make it any less reality. Let me again repeat my question : How much do you think Estate is being enriched by this project? Give a number.

Or let's make it a lot more easy. I did a calculation - using information about publishing and Michael's royalty rate- and said "it this was a MJ only release, MJ/Estate would earn $9 per sale". Can you look me in the eyes and claim Estate is getting enriched $9 per Motown sale as well? No? Would you agree their enrichment would be less than $9 given there are other performers? So are we actually agreeing this project probably wouldn't enrich Estate as much as if it was their project?

I know you would like to disagree with me no matter what but after a point it gets crazy.

It seems your only explanation why the Estate blocked the full rehearsals is no monies for the Estate/Sony

It wasn't my explanation. It was Birchey's and I agreed with him as a probable reason. and logically it makes sense. Estate is a profit seeking business and there's nothing surprising in them trying to maximize their profits. Suzanne de Passe's comment also demonstrates they want to focus on one project at a time - aka trying to space out the releases. So to me it's quite obvious Estate operates on a "maximum profit for the longest time possible" plan. Now we can discuss the merits of such plan and if a better approach is possible but I can tell you right now that such plan wouldn't make them "pieces of shit" in my book.

Not to mention short-sighted thinking.

That's a debatable point. A look to this thread would show people want everything right now and in near future. That's short sighted approach as well. How about 30-50 years from now?

Fully agree the Cirque/Estate venture is much more profitable that the Estate/Sony releases. I personally credit Cirque’s artistic control and promotion for that success.

I can only hope that you realize Cirque/ Estate tickets range from $75 to $200 whereas Estate/Sony releases range from $9 to $40. Given the difference in prices of course Cirque/ Estate would bring in more money but that doesn't necessary mean it's more profitable according to business basics. A correct comparison of profit levels would require to look to return percentages. In other words for example if both of them bring 40% return on investment after adjusted for costs or such, they would be equally profitable. But I'm aware that's probably a complex business concept for this thread.

 

[maviefly]

We had a chance to see michael material and it got blocked.

This.

I wonder what their intension is.