On Mj new album. Do you wanna hear the heal the world type songs and the angry songs?

I can't imagine my MJ collection without "They don't care about us", "Scream", "Heal the world" and "Earth song". The lates MJ track which is a combination of a so called angry and heal the world song is "We've had enough" . A brilliant track and very sincere at that! So If balances out the angry, heal the world stuff with the feel-good stuff we should have the ideal MJ album. However completly outsting the angry and heal the world stuff would lead to an MJ album which would be at best fake.
 
I can't imagine my MJ collection without "They don't care about us", "Scream", "Heal the world" and "Earth song". The lates MJ track which is a combination of a so called angry and heal the world song is "We've had enough" . A brilliant track and very sincere at that! So If balances out the angry, heal the world stuff with the feel-good stuff we should have the ideal MJ album. However completly outsting the angry and heal the world stuff would lead to an MJ album which would be at best fake.

so youre saying that ifMichael didnt make any angry songs or earth songs(heal the world..w/e). Michael Jackson would be a fake?

0_0 :scratch: oookiee...
 
how does it ruin the tune of the album? his albums are mixtures if u dont like it skip 2 the next song. and vince was perfection so by saying that album wasnt that good is blasphemous. and dont qoute me givin that hoopla about opinions cuz i dont care ur statement is blasphemous, and im goin 2 leave it like that b4 i hurt sum1s feelings...moving along

wat???? i said it mess up the song not the damn album, read before u type
 
how does it ruin the tune of the album? his albums are mixtures if u dont like it skip 2 the next song. and vince was perfection so by saying that album wasnt that good is blasphemous. and dont qoute me givin that hoopla about opinions cuz i dont care ur statement is blasphemous, and im goin 2 leave it like that b4 i hurt sum1s feelings...moving along

0_0 wow. Perfection is an opinion when it comes to creating. what you think is perfect is different then what i or anyone else thinks is perfect. how can someones opinion be blashemous? my feelings arnt hurt, i just find the stupidity of this comment annoying.
 
0_0 wow. Perfection is an opinion when it comes to creating. what you think is perfect is different then what i or anyone else thinks is perfect. how can someones opinion be blashemous? my feelings arnt hurt, i just find the stupidity of this comment annoying.

i wudnt expect ur feelings to be hurt since iw asnt addressing u in the 1st place lol. and yes ur right about what pple think perfection is, but in this case its non debateable lol opinion or not, im just that stubborn. and its my opinion that his opinion is blasphemous...i love how i worded that lol.
 
im not being ignorant...wats ur problem?

i didnt say u were being ignorant. and my problem is i dont like pple downing vince and complaining. pple want michael 2 release a new album but yet complain on what they r tired of hearing and what they dont want on the album. its foolish. if ur not penning tracks then u really have no say
 
Personally, I don't think he should include either type - and there are several reasons for this.

First and foremost - the very nature of this discussion shows that they've been overdone. Everybody associates them with MJ now, so any further additions to the genre will be tired. It's become almost a self-parody that every MJ album will include a least one preachy environmental song and several media-bashing rants. In other words - it is utterly predictable.

Secondly, the standard of both genres has steadily declined with each of MJ's albums. Heal The World wasn't a patch on Man In The Mirror, and by Earth Song he was beginning to sound really preachy. Then Cry just sounded like a substandard remake of MITM, right down to the whispered outro.

Similarly - the anti-media songs declined as well. Leave Me Alone was subtle and nuanced - layered and loaded. It possessed both humour and poignancy. Each subsequent album contained increasing numbers of anti-media songs and the quality was deteriorating. Privacy was really quite embarrassing - the lyrics didn't even make sense; Princess Diana died in August - Summer, not a 'cold winter's night'.

Thirdly, each genre opens him to ridicule. There is a certain hypocrisy about a man who spent fifteen years powering an entire theme park in his back garden, largely for his own amusement, whinging at everybody else about how they're damaging the environment. Similarly, there is a certain hypocrisy about a man who feeds stories to the media about buying the elephant man's bones and sleeping in hyperbaric chambers, then starts whinging that they're all printing lies about him.

Fourthly, each album is reviewed before its release and reviews often have a strong bearing over the subsequent charting of an album. Is it really the most sensible approach to openly antagonise the very people reviewing your album, knowing that the album's profitability rests on their responses? Common sense suggests not.

Finally, you have to go back to what made the public fall in love with MJ. It was clever, succinct dance albums - uncluttered and primarily joyous. If you trace the line, the more he preached about the environment and the media, the less his albums sold.

I think the main problem is that people can't relate to anti-media songs and they're past caring about the environment. Nobody wants to hear a multi-millionaire pop megastar whinging about how dreadful his life is - it sounds patronising. Most people can't relate to it and many are irritated by it. Similarly, nobody wants to listen to a man whose spent forty years flying around the world in private jets lecturing them on how they have to recycle their plastic bags - that's patronising as well.

He should return to Off The Wall/Thriller style music - legitimate, fun, soulful... something people can enjoy and also relate to.
 
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i highly doubt those songs have anything to do with a decrease in album sales and ur whole staement is opinionated anyways. and it kills me how every says mj shud go back 2 his off the wall sound that was the 70s, its about to be 2009, yes the album is timeless but get real. and he shud stick to thriller roots, bad and dangerous are far better albums than thriller. his creativity grew with each album. its very rare that ur next album sales more than the previous one anyway. well nto really rare but u get my drift lol
 
Personally, I don't think he should include either type - and there are several reasons for this.

First and foremost - the very nature of this discussion shows that they've been overdone. Everybody associates them with MJ now, so any further additions to the genre will be tired. It's become almost a self-parody that every MJ album will include a least one preachy environmental song and several media-bashing rants. In other words - it is utterly predictable.

Secondly, the standard of both genres has steadily declined with each of MJ's albums. Heal The World wasn't a patch on Man In The Mirror, and by Earth Song he was beginning to sound really preachy. Then Cry just sounded like a substandard remake of MITM, right down to the whispered outro.

Similarly - the anti-media songs declined as well. Leave Me Alone was subtle and nuanced - layered and loaded. It possessed both humour and poignancy. Each subsequent album contained increasing numbers of anti-media songs and the quality was deteriorating. Privacy was really quite embarrassing - the lyrics didn't even make sense; Princess Diana died in August - Summer, not a 'cold winter's night'.

Thirdly, each genre opens him to ridicule. There is a certain hypocrisy about a man who spent fifteen years powering an entire theme park in his back garden, largely for his own amusement, whinging at everybody else about how they're damaging the environment. Similarly, there is a certain hypocrisy about a man who feeds stories to the media about buying the elephant man's bones and sleeping in hyperbaric chambers, then starts whinging that they're all printing lies about him.

Fourthly, each album is reviewed before its release and reviews often have a strong bearing over the subsequent charting of an album. Is it really the most sensible approach to openly antagonise the very people reviewing your album, knowing that the album's profitability rests on their responses? Common sense suggests not.

Finally, you have to go back to what made the public fall in love with MJ. It was clever, succinct dance albums - uncluttered and primarily joyous. If you trace the line, the more he preached about the environment and the media, the less his albums sold.

I think the main problem is that people can't relate to anti-media songs and they're past caring about the environment. Nobody wants to hear a multi-millionaire pop megastar whinging about how dreadful his life is - it sounds patronising. Most people can't relate to it and many are irritated by it. Similarly, nobody wants to listen to a man whose spent forty years flying around the world in private jets lecturing them on how they have to recycle their plastic bags - that's patronising as well.

He should return to Off The Wall/Thriller style music - legitimate, fun, soulful... something people can enjoy and also relate to.

wow..that was an excellent. I'm convinced. Being a fan, sometimes clouds your mind and doesn't let you see the truth behind things..
 
couldn't give a toss. if the music is good, leave it in. Why You Wanna Trip is a banger, i loved that.

Exactly!

3 other songs that I'm sad over that they never got recognition are "This Time Around", "Money" & "2 Bad" - They're grimey as f¤¤k.

I swear to God, even Shaq sounded good on "2 Bad", even though Biggie's guest performance on "This Time Around" is amazing!

But I'm with arXter, I'm happy just to hear a good album, and an album with straight club bangers and no slow jams would be as incomplete as an album filled with slow jams and no club bangers.
 
Exactly!

3 other songs that I'm sad over that they never got recognition are "This Time Around", "Money" & "2 Bad".

That's very true. Those songs are awesome!! Do you think it has to do with the message of the song? Would it have been more popular if it wasn't personal? But then again, it being personal doesn't detract from the song at all. (Thinking about the awesomeness of Stranger in Moscow..)
 
That's very true. Those songs are awesome!! Do you think it has to do with the message of the song? Would it have been more popular if it wasn't personal? But then again, it being personal doesn't detract from the song at all. (Thinking about the awesomeness of Stranger in Moscow..)

it's popular with us. the fans who plop down the money. that's all that counts.

those songs are awesome to me, too. especially 'this time around'.
 
it kills me how every says mj shud go back 2 his off the wall sound that was the 70s, its about to be 2009

Quality never dies. In MJ's own words about the Nutcracker Suite, 'Great art never dies'. Modern music dies because it is technologically based. It doesn't matter how high tech the drum machine is - next year a new one will make it obsolete. The next year, a new one will make that one obsolete. And so it goes - all technology becomes obsolete.

Converseley - a drum is a drum and always will be a drum. If you can make great music with a real drum, a real guitar, a real bass, real horns, real strings - that music will be great forever and will also be forever replicable. If you make the same song with synths, then in one year's time those synths will be redundant and in five years you will wonder how you ever thought they sounded good.

It is almost impossible to create lasting, timeless music with a computer. It always ages. Pick any track from Off The Wall - a live band can set up and play those songs today exactly as they were played in the studio in 1979 - and they'll sound every inch as funky and dynamic. But most of the music from Invincible can't even be played by a live band. That's why Off The Wall is a timeless classic and Invincible has faded into obscurity - it already sounds very dated.

It depends what MJ's mission is. If it is to create shallow music in order to cash in on current musical trends - he should, by all means, go for that '2009' sound. If his mission is to restore his reputation as a legitimate and gifted musician - and to create something lasting and classic, which will reaffirm the legacy that Sneddon half-successfully robbed him of - he should return to the old methods he used for OTW and Thriller.
 
Quality never dies. In MJ's own words about the Nutcracker Suite, 'Great art never dies'. Modern music dies because it is technologically based. It doesn't matter how high tech the drum machine is - next year a new one will make it obsolete. The next year, a new one will make that one obsolete. And so it goes - all technology becomes obsolete.

Converseley - a drum is a drum and always will be a drum. If you can make great music with a real drum, a real guitar, a real bass, real horns, real strings - that music will be great forever and will also be forever replicable. If you make the same song with synths, then in one year's time those synths will be redundant and in five years you will wonder how you ever thought they sounded good.

It is almost impossible to create lasting, timeless music with a computer. It always ages. Pick any track from Off The Wall - a live band can set up and play those songs today exactly as they were played in the studio in 1979 - and they'll sound every inch as funky and dynamic. But most of the music from Invincible can't even be played by a live band. That's why Off The Wall is a timeless classic and Invincible has faded into obscurity - it already sounds very dated.

It depends what MJ's mission is. If it is to create shallow music in order to cash in on current musical trends - he should, by all means, go for that '2009' sound. If his mission is to restore his reputation as a legitimate and gifted musician - and to create something lasting and classic, which will reaffirm the legacy that Sneddon half-successfully robbed him of - he should return to the old methods he used for OTW and Thriller.

i disagree with you. i love all the electronic music on invincible and that was seven years ago. i also love switched on bach, and that was done completely with synthesizers, and that's still classic, today. so..to each his or her own. i and many other people think synthesizers are great. they still sell quite well at guitar center.

all of MJ's music has lasting quality, no matter what instruments are used on it.
 
all of MJ's music has lasting quality, no matter what instruments are used on it.

I respectfully disagree with you. I think that his peak period was Destiny through to Thriller and that almost every single track he created during that period is a classic.

I think that since then he has created some fantastic music, but also a lot of filler and a lot of stuff that has dated terribly. For instance, I think almost everything on Bad has dated tremendously because of the heavy use of 80s synths. The whole album might as well be called 'Now That's What I Call 1980s Synths!!!'
 
That's very true. Those songs are awesome!! Do you think it has to do with the message of the song? Would it have been more popular if it wasn't personal? But then again, it being personal doesn't detract from the song at all. (Thinking about the awesomeness of Stranger in Moscow..)

Naw, I think just that those songs are missing an certain "energy" to work in the main stream.
"Money" would've never worked as a single, it's too experimental for "non fans" to "get/understand it".
"2 Bad" on the other hand has more energy but still is missing that "main stream" feeling.

"This time around" though, that song is what I think might have worked best as a single of those three songs, much thanks to Biggie in it. It would be ill to see both Biggie and MJ in the video just pissed off.
BUT here's the problem, "This Time Around" _kind of_ has the same message as "Scream", and "Scream" is undoubtedly a stronger single than "This Time Around" would be.
Remember the climate in the 90's, hip hop beats was HUGE even for singing acts.

And back in -95, MTV aired uncensored then videos right?
Just to see Biggie come out and take a big s**t on MJ-haters with the line "and I know my n***a Mike like that, baaaby". That would have had me satisfied for weeks.

(With this said, I still don't think This Time Around would've worked as a single, but it would've been so ill to see a video with MJ and Biggie)
 
TwistedV,

there's no such thing as a 'real' instrument. synthesisers are very much individual instruments in their own right as are the acoustic drums you're referring to or any other 'traditional' instruments (and i use that term very loosely). and the notion of a 'dated sound' has no real musical meaning. to try to generally dissociate 'quality' from electronic sounds is very unfortunate, lol. go put on Innervisions or something like this.

as for the emphasis on what others think of Mike's material, at this point in his legendary career and controversial public life i'd drop the worry/expectations in that department and just try to enjoy the music as opposed being concerned of the musically-dyslexic public response to the point of wanting to interfere with genuine artistic creation - have you looked out the window onto today's pop? the masses will buy into anything when marketed right. and even if the industry is healthy, i'd still not put that much emphasis on the masses. as far as i'm concerned, this is purely an album for my enjoyment (or possibly lack thereof, for which i'd stlil have in the crates my Off The Wall, Jacksons Live and Dangerous as immediate backup).

there will be no 21st century Off The Wall, as michaelsson already pointed out, it's about 2009, and MJ's 2009 at that. or 2010 or 11.

but we never know, Mike may agree with you (or someone may have convinced him of a similar commercially protective argument). and i believe that is the mantra of major labels: safe commercial appeal > creative endeavours.

to get loosely back on topic, strong messages are welcomed by me as long as i'd enjoy the presentation.

and it's all highly subjective anyway.
 
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I respectfully disagree with you. I think that his peak period was Destiny through to Thriller and that almost every single track he created during that period is a classic.

I think that since then he has created some fantastic music, but also a lot of filler and a lot of stuff that has dated terribly. For instance, I think almost everything on Bad has dated tremendously because of the heavy use of 80s synths. The whole album might as well be called 'Now That's What I Call 1980s Synths!!!'

i disagree about Bad..one of his biggest selling albums ever. no filler at all.
that's what i call 80's sounds nothing like MJ.

i think it's a bit of tunnelvision to think that there are not people out there who enjoy something of Mike's that you do not enjoy. the greatest musicians adapt. stevie wonder and MJ both are equally at home with electronic and...'natural' instruments. and they're still around as long time musicians. music and musical instruments are as diverse as the people who play them.

Dave Matthews has his place..but if everything were Dave Matthews, music would be stagnant. so...we have Dave Matthews over here...and elcctronic music over there..and that's how music thrives...with both sides at home with each other.
 
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Man, I love earth type songs, but not no more. I don't hear it . It likes ruins the tune in the album. Espeically the angry songs. As mush as I like the Dangerous album the song "Why You Wanna Trip On Me" just ruins the whole song nice hook to it but the lyrics his vocals I didn't like. Now I could understand History album, I know what happen. Bad, I love that album, man in the mirrior was great, no complaint about that, but Invincible omg!! that damn "Cry" and " "The Lost Children" just ruions the whole album, (even tho album wasnt that good) Anyways no more angry songs and no more earth songs...plz

wow... every song you mention that ruined it for you are some of my faves. earth song is incredible to me and the video he made for it really sends the message home, and it wasnt really an angry song it was a wake up and pay attention song. why you wanna trip on me.. same thing, you're pulling from it the angry - but this song has a message -- people's priorities are SCREWED UP! and we're paying attention to the wrong things. Lost Children and Cry are not angry songs. Again... messages. Michael is as much as messenger as a singer and his songs have depth. some are just for fun like Thriller but a good number of his songs are to send out messages. Even Bad was a song with a message.

As for future songs with an angry tone, i think he has more to be pissed about now than ever, and wouldnt be surprised if he puts some of that into his music, but i imagine that some of it will also be about reconcilation and forgiveness as he's a spiritual person, and as pissed as he may be about how he's been treated he has an incredible capacity to love and forgive and to see people as fallible beings. i think he may extend that forgiveness only to those who also were used as pawns in things and were also victimized, and may not be extended to those whose motives were and remain purely of evil or greedy nature.

for me, i like it when he is real with his music and tells us stories, unravels things for us in music that he wont say outright. we dont have to guess how he feels. he tells us and if we're paying attention we hear it. he's to the point too. i look forward to hearing what he has to say.
 
Personally, I don't think he should include either type - and there are several reasons for this.

First and foremost - the very nature of this discussion shows that they've been overdone. Everybody associates them with MJ now, so any further additions to the genre will be tired. It's become almost a self-parody that every MJ album will include a least one preachy environmental song and several media-bashing rants. In other words - it is utterly predictable.

Secondly, the standard of both genres has steadily declined with each of MJ's albums. Heal The World wasn't a patch on Man In The Mirror, and by Earth Song he was beginning to sound really preachy. Then Cry just sounded like a substandard remake of MITM, right down to the whispered outro.

Similarly - the anti-media songs declined as well. Leave Me Alone was subtle and nuanced - layered and loaded. It possessed both humour and poignancy. Each subsequent album contained increasing numbers of anti-media songs and the quality was deteriorating. Privacy was really quite embarrassing - the lyrics didn't even make sense; Princess Diana died in August - Summer, not a 'cold winter's night'.

Thirdly, each genre opens him to ridicule. There is a certain hypocrisy about a man who spent fifteen years powering an entire theme park in his back garden, largely for his own amusement, whinging at everybody else about how they're damaging the environment. Similarly, there is a certain hypocrisy about a man who feeds stories to the media about buying the elephant man's bones and sleeping in hyperbaric chambers, then starts whinging that they're all printing lies about him.

Fourthly, each album is reviewed before its release and reviews often have a strong bearing over the subsequent charting of an album. Is it really the most sensible approach to openly antagonise the very people reviewing your album, knowing that the album's profitability rests on their responses? Common sense suggests not.

Finally, you have to go back to what made the public fall in love with MJ. It was clever, succinct dance albums - uncluttered and primarily joyous. If you trace the line, the more he preached about the environment and the media, the less his albums sold.

I think the main problem is that people can't relate to anti-media songs and they're past caring about the environment. Nobody wants to hear a multi-millionaire pop megastar whinging about how dreadful his life is - it sounds patronising. Most people can't relate to it and many are irritated by it. Similarly, nobody wants to listen to a man whose spent forty years flying around the world in private jets lecturing them on how they have to recycle their plastic bags - that's patronising as well.

He should return to Off The Wall/Thriller style music - legitimate, fun, soulful... something people can enjoy and also relate to.

This post says perfectly everything I wanted to think of in my earlier post but couldn't.
 
^^^^^you are not the only people in the world, Twisted V and those who agree with Twisted V. it's a good thing that there are diverse opinions on this subject. and it's irritating that you class your opinions as what 'MOST people think'. because you are wrong. once again, i say, opinions are diverse

the irony is, that you wanting him to go back to "off the wall' smacks your own argument in the face about progressing with time.

and it's really irritating that you give critics so much power. critics are wrong ninety nine percent of the time...and MJ's success has not been hurt by them. they don't have nearly the power you assign to them.
 
i disagree about Bad..one of his biggest selling albums ever

Yes... In the 1980s. At the time it sounded current, nowadays it does not sound current. This is what I'm saying about recording music in accordance with prevailing fads and technologies of the time. Technology dies and now there isn't a single track from the entire Bad album that doesn't sound stuck in the 80s.

And what do sales have to do with anything anyway? Westlife have had more number ones in the UK than James Brown, Aretha Franklin and Ray Charles combined. Does that mean Westlife are better?

Miles Davis never had a UK number one - the Cheeky Girls did. Are they better? Because they sold more?

MJ fans need to learn to disassociate popularity from artistic integrity. And so, for that matter, does MJ himself. That's how he lost sight in the first place.

MJ sure wasn't thinking of record sales when he hired Quincy Jones to produce his debut album. And he certainly wasn't thinking of record sales when he decided his album should be a blend of jazz and disco. He was doing it for the music, not for the sales or the money, and that's when he produced his best results.


you are not the only people in the world, Twisted V and those who agree with Twisted V. it's a good thing that there are diverse opinions on this subject.

I don't really understand your point. On the one hand, you keep telling us we're not the only people in the world so we should stop forcing our opinions on everyone [which we're not, anyway, we're just contributing to a discussion]. On the other hand, you are doing exactly the same thing by constantly trying to undermine what we're saying. If you think it's good that there are diverse opinions on the subject, why do you keep picking on the ones you don't agree with?


the irony is, that you wanting him to go back to "off the wall' smacks your own argument in the face about progressing with time.

At what point did I say MJ should progress with the times? I said explicitly that modern techniques are producing terrible music with no shelf life and that MJ should return to his old methods if he wants to make anything with any legitimacy.
 
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so youre saying that ifMichael didnt make any angry songs or earth songs(heal the world..w/e). Michael Jackson would be a fake?

0_0 :scratch: oookiee...

I truly do believe that, unless Michael realy didn't want to add them on the album. The heal the world angry stuff is what Michael stands for. He can't even accept an award without saying something of a humanitarian nature. There's nothing wrong with these type of songs if they are good. "D.S" was just a waste of studio time, "Cry" was average but "We've had enoug h" was killa! If Mike makes great heal the world and angry type song and balances them out with the more jovial type songs there should be no problem
 
Well,well,well.. If it isnt' "Twisted Vision" I see you refer to yourself as "Twisted V" on this board. It feels good reading your post without the disprespecful and unneccessary things you have said about MJ on the other board where you're a moderator.I guess your post does not contain any insults to MJ because of the strict rules up here. Your stay here should be interesting because you have very strong opinions.. I look forward to rubbishing them as per usual.. this time without the fear of getting an infraction like the one you gave me at the other board. On the other hand I don't agree with the MJ can do no wrong mindset held by others up here and atleast I know we won't be crossing swords in that regard.
 
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