Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

[dam2040]

I honestly think in today's climate, 200k for such a niche release with little promo was a huge stretch. They'd be lucky to crack 50k first week honestly, and even then the sales would nosedive.

 

[barbee0715]

I think for the 3cd/dvd boxset and the 2 cd set. I understood is as the goal for the album/music sales.

what other formats did they have? I think both the documentary and the wembley concert was standalone releases.

No, those 2 are the packages I was referring to-I didn't know if the separate sales for Wembley were included in those sales totals.

Yes, Wembley and Spikes doc were sold separately. Spikes doc premiered here months after the Bad25 sales started. Still not sure why.
(It's my opinion that was bad timing. The doc should have been on TV the same week as the album was released). It definitely would have pushed sales.)

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

I may be late for the discussion but the Estate could have released demos and/or alternative versions of the songs if Michael didn't record extra material as he did in his subsequent albums. To me there's no use supporting a re-issue if there isn't new material.

 

[ivy]

Ironically, Bad sold ~130,000 copies last year without any kind of promotion or anniversary or any effort that Sony had to put into it. But this is probably mainly the original album, not Bad 25. Maybe this is another thing that confirms in Sony that it's not worth putting any effort in anniversary releases when the original album sells better (relatively speaking) without any effort and any cost. It seems the general public is still very much interested in Michael Jackson (his catalog album sales were pretty good last year), only they are interested in the original albums, not the additional stuff (ie. demos, remixes).

not at all surprised. I have many friends who are non MJ fans, causal listeners and they have bought MJ albums after his death. It's the original albums though.

I don't see then how this OTW release serves that purpose, unless the documentary will be such a big hit with the general public that they would be willing to give out $20+ for this set, instead of just buying a single OTW album for $6-$9, in case they get interested in the album.

I don't think they are targeting the public. It is most probably a still fan aimed release. They are probably hoping fans will buy the documentary or buy it just to collect it.

Or they should start a collector's label for hard core fans, like it was suggested once in a thread here.

most probably they will. they might think it's too early for it.

 

[MoeJack]

I think it's wonderful that we are celebrating Michael's individual albums as each is truly a masterpiece and deserves to be commemorated. I sure hope they have something great planned for Dangerous 25!!

 

[WildStyle]

The only problem is everybody involved having crazy sales expectations for re-releases. They're not going to set the charts on fire no matter what you put on them. The goal should be quality. Not sales. Enough people will buy that you'll make more than enough profit on the projects.

 

[WildStyle]

Also with regards to the content on the album and the press release... it's been 6 years. The estate aren't going to change their policy of being dishonest to the fan base now. May as well get used to it. It's who they've been and who they are. It's sad.

 

[HIStory]

Ironically, Bad sold ~130,000 copies last year without any kind of promotion or anniversary or any effort that Sony had to put into it. But this is probably mainly the original album, not Bad 25. Maybe this is another thing that confirms in Sony that it's not worth putting any effort in anniversary releases when the original album sells better (relatively speaking) without any effort and any cost. It seems the general public is still very much interested in Michael Jackson (his catalog album sales were pretty good last year), only they are interested in the original albums, not the additional stuff (ie. demos, remixes).

Correction: Bad sold 143,000 copies in the US in 2015, being the #23 best selling catalog album of the year. That's the final tally. MJ has three more albums in the Top 50 of the yearly catalog album charts (Thriller, Number Ones and Essential) and purely on catalog album sales he sold about 600,000 copies, making him one of the best selling, if not THE best selling, catalog artists.

So like I said, if the expectation for Bad 25 was selling 200,000 copies and they did not reach that goal and meanwhile they manage to sell 143,000 copies of the original album while doing nothing, investing nothing in it then - from a commercial POV - it's understandable that they will not do anything for OTW. And then this probably means they will do nothing for Dangerous and any of the other albums either. Although I think sometimes they (at least the Estate) should consider other than commercial factors.

 

[AtlasAir]

I can't keep track. Are we mad because the Off The Wall disc wont have new stuff?
Wouldn't the doc be new enough? No, its not the Triumph Tour, but its better than waiting forever AFTER airing on TV like Bad 25 did.

Also, it's implied that Triumph tour material will be in the doc, right? (Based off the commercial)

 

[OnirMJ]

I honestly think in today's climate.

What climate? Adele sold 14 million albums in less than a month and a half. I think that even Thriller didn't manage to do that, or Bad or Dangerous or any other album ever. So it is possible. Of course not for MJ anymore because he doesn't have media backup and well paid critics and airplay like her. But it is possible.

 

[OnirMJ]

if Michael didn't record extra material as he did in his subsequent albums.

He did. That's not even the question here. The question here is why not release that material now and why Alicia from MJEstate Online Team lied to us in the statement. Some of us (including me) believe it's Quincy Jones and the Jackson family's fault and some believe it's Estate's fault for whatever reason. Probably to save that material for posthumous studio releases. But that scenario does not explain lack of demos of already released songs.

 

[OnirMJ]

I can't keep track. Are we mad because the Off The Wall disc wont have new stuff?

No. I don't think so. Well, some are. Not me.

The problems that I have with this release are:
1. Alicia from MJEstate Online Team lied to us in the statement.
2. There is no need to re-release the album if there is not going to be any extra material on it.
3. Why package the documentary with album re-release? The doc should be available as standalone release.
4. If they wanted a package they could have paired it with 2015 pressing of Off The Wall (like they did with Number Ones CD+DVD and Dangerous CD+DVD). That way they would cut down the expenses of printing new covers, booklets.. and this release won't be seen as a new album release or album re-release but only, as it actually is, promo for the Spike Lee's movie.

 

[HIStory]

What climate? Adele sold 14 million albums in less than a month and a half. I think that even Thriller didn't manage to do that, or Bad or Dangerous or any other album ever. So it is possible. Of course not for MJ anymore because he doesn't have media backup and well paid critics and airplay like her. But it is possible.

LOL. You are comparing apples and organges and no Adele's sales do not threaten Thriller's sales. What you do not seem to consider is that today sales dynamics are completely different than back in the 1980s. They are very frontloaded unlike in the 1980s. It is why most of the "fastest selling albums" (ie. best first week sales) come from the last 10-15 years, while none of those albums made it to the best selling albums of all times list. In the 1980s albums were slow burners, but the biggest selling albums of all times remained big sellers for a longer period of time. Longevity matters a lot more in making the biggest selling albums than sensational first week(s) sales.

Adele sold very well in the first weeks as her album came out thanks to the hype and the Christmas season, but now her sales are back to the range typical for this era. Although 25 is still #1 (because there is no new album coming out in the weeks after Christmas) but last week it sold 164,000 which is more the normal range for this era. Thriller might have never sold 3.4 million in a week, like 25 did in its first week, but it doesn't matter because it sold over 1 million/week over a longer period of time. Remember the record that Adele beat with that was N'Syncs and N'syncs album wasn't among the best selling albums of all times just because it had great first week sales.

It is simply that in the fast consuming Internet era record sales dynamics are very frontloaded.

Also to expect a catalog album re-issue to compete in sales with the biggest selling album of the current era (otherwise I don't know why you brought up Adele) is very unrealistic. This was Dam's full sentence:

I honestly think in today's climate, 200k for such a niche release with little promo was a huge stretch.

So how do you want to put that up to the same standards sales wise as a major, hyped, NEW release by the most popular current artist? If some fans have really such unrealistic expectations for these projects then no wonder they are always left disappointed.

 

[OnirMJ]

Also to expect a catalog album re-issue to compete in sales with the biggest selling album of the current era (otherwise I don't know why you brought up Adele) is very unrealistic. This was Dam's full sentence:

I honestly think in today's climate, 200k for such a niche release with little promo was a huge stretch.

So how do you want to put that up to the same standards sales wise as a major, hyped, NEW release by the most popular current artist? If some fans have really such unrealistic expectations for these projects then no wonder they are always left disappointed.

Hahaha. You misunderstood me completely. I said if she can sell 14 million copies in less than a month and a half then that MJ can manage to sell 200k in US without it being "a huge stretch". And I say that the "today's climate" is not bad at all if you have right product. And of course good marketing and promotion. Also having paid critics and media propaganda and radio airplay like her & Taylor doesn't hurt.

 

[HIStory]

He did. That's not even the question here. The question here is why not release that material now and why Alicia from MJEstate Online Team lied to us in the statement. Some of us (including me) believe it's Quincy Jones and the Jackson family's fault and some believe it's Estate's fault for whatever reason. Probably to save that material for posthumous studio releases. But that scenario does not explain lack of demos of already released songs.

From a strictly commercial POV: if they had included demos they should have added one more CD which would have probably made it more costly for them and more expensive for the buyer. This when the general public is not really interested in demos, so for them the extra cost would not have been worth it.

I think a compromise could have been to make a version for the general public just with the original album and a limited number fan edition with an extra CD with the demos.

 

[HIStory]

Hahaha. You misunderstood me completely. I said if she can sell 14 million copies in less than a month and a half then that MJ can manage to sell 200k in US without it being "a huge stretch". And I say that the "today's climate" is not bad at all if you have right product. And of course good marketing and promotion. Also having paid critics and media propaganda and radio airplay like her & Taylor doesn't hurt.

First of all you are comparing worldwide sales to US sales (14 million sold of 25 is worldwide not US sales - in the US she sold 7.6 million so far).

And just because Adele managed this it does not mean this is the norm in today's climate to which a niche re-release of an old album should be compared to. Adele's success is more an anomaly. Most artists today hardly can go platinum (1 million copies) or even gold (500,000 copies) and they are big name current artists!

Here are some of the numbers for current albums by current artists (US sales) - and these albums are considered successful:

Chris Brown - Royalty 198,000
Coldplay (probably the most popular band today) - A Head Full of Dreams 520,226
The Weeknd - Beauty Behind the Madness 862,000

The only ones who recently went over 1 million are Adele (7.6 million), Taylor Swift (5.6 million) and Justin Bieber (1.3 million).

But it is pretty much futile to bring these artists up as a standard. These are current artists, aritsts who are alive, who are young, who are active and who have NEW material out. And they are pretty much the exceptions to the rule that even most current artists, even ones who are considered successful struggle to go platinum or even gold in today's climate.

 

[OnirMJ]

From a strictly commercial POV: if they had included demos they should have added one more CD

Not necessarily. Off The Wall is only 42:28 minutes long. That leaves you with 37:32 minutes of free space. That is enough for 8 demos (or remixes) for sure.

 

[OnirMJ]

First of all you are comparing worldwide sales to US sales (14 million sold of 25 is worldwide not US sales - in the US she sold 7.6 million so far).

I know. That's what I wrote. I really don't care about US sales only. I don't think it's important. For me worldwide sales is what matters the most. But they were talking about Bad 25 US sales goal so that's why I wrote 200k for Bad 25. But my point is that the "climate" is not bad at all. US or worldwide.

 

[HIStory]

Not necessarily. Off The Wall is only 42:28 minutes long. That leaves you with 37:32 minutes of free space. That is enough for 8 demos (or remixes) for sure.

Then that leaves the Quincy thing as an explanation (which is IMO pretty plausible considering his lawsuit) or simply that the Estate/Sony did not give a damn about this project.

 

[Russo 28]

Thanks for this!

 

[HIStory]

I know. That's what I wrote. I really don't care about US sales only. I don't think it's important. For me worldwide sales is what matters the most. But they were talking about Bad 25 US sales goal so that's why I wrote 200k for Bad 25. But my point is that the "climate" is not bad at all. US or worldwide.

Just because a couple of select current artists sometimes manage to achieve relatively good sales it does not mean the climate generally is not bad. It is. When major artists struggle to go gold it is a bad climate, trust. When the most popular current band sells 500,000 of their latest NEW album then how do you realistically expect Bad25 sell 200,000 copies? Only hard core fans are interested in demos. The general public will not give out more money for MJ demos. They will simply buy the original Bad album for much less money, as it happens apparently.

 

[OnirMJ]

^^Also to add. I'm not comparing anything! I just said that Bad 25 could have sold more if the content (mainly VHS) was better and than 200,000 copies sold in US is not or should not be seen as "stretch" at all. And my point is still that the "climate" is not bad at all for MJ, Bieber, Adele, Coldplay, Taylor, Chris Brown, The Weekend or any other artist if you have good product to sell and good marketing and promotion strategy (propaganda like Adele & Taylor).

 

[OnirMJ]

When major artists struggle to go gold it is a bad climate, trust.

Bad climate or bad product? It's easy to blame it on the climate.

When the most popular current band sells 500,000 of their latest NEW album then how do you realistically expect Bad25 sell 200,000 copies? Only hard core fans are interested in demos. The general public will not give out more money for MJ demos. They will simply buy the original Bad album for much less money, as it happens apparently.

I explained it in my last post. Again the product/content was not that good.

"I just said that Bad 25 could have sold more if the content (mainly VHS) was better and that 200,000 copies sold in US is not or should not be seen as "stretch" at all."

I'm not talking just about the demos. They could have put those 6 demos + 6 contemporizations by Timbaland for example on CD 2 instead of those remixes no one was really interested in. Also they could have released DVD or blu-ray in 2012 instead of VHS! And a bad one.

 

[Gaz]

Please be aware, tygger has now been perminantely excluded from MJJC.

 

[HIStory]

^^Also to add. I'm not comparing anything! I just said that Bad 25 could have sold more if the content (mainly VHS) was better and than 200,000 copies sold in US is not or should not be seen as "stretch" at all. And my point is still that the "climate" is not bad at all for MJ, Bieber, Adele, Coldplay, Taylor, Chris Brown, The Weekend or any other artist if you have good product to sell and good marketing and promotion strategy (propaganda like Adele & Taylor).

Promotion costs money. And record companies will only invest in promotion for an artist if they see a return for that cost. Once again you bring up promotion for Adele and Taylor Swift - it is a totally different thing to promote a current, young artist with a new album out than a re-release of an old album that has been available to people for 25 years and which includes uninteresting additional material from the POV of the general public. (Demos are certainly not uninteresting to me or many other hard core fans, in fact, I think Bad25 has been the most hard core-fan friendly release of the Estate so far and I like it. Much better than Thriller 25, IMO. But here I am trying to reflect on it from the POV of the general public.)

The VHS quality concert is certainly a problem for fans, but I don't think it was a huge factor in the lack of sales with the general public. Concert videos are usually not too big sellers outside of the hard core fandom of an artist, so even if it was in HD quality I doubt it would have boosted sales by very much.

Like I said, if Sony sees that they can sell 143,000 copies a year of the original Bad album without any effort, any promotion, any investment, while putting money into a project like Bad 25 will not bring them any higher sales wise then they will draw the conclusions from that.

 

[HIStory]

Bad climate or bad product? It's easy to blame it on the climate.

What is a bad product is subjective. Do you think every great selling album is necessarily a great album and every album that doesn't sell is a bad product? That would be a very simplicistic view of how the industry works. IMO Bad 25 is actually a much better product than the "Michael" album, yet the latter sold more. It's better than Thriller 25, but the latter sold a lot more.

There is a difference in what is a good product for a hard core fan and for the general public. The things that are good from a hard core fan POV (eg. demos, concerts) will probably have less sales potential with the general public. So the Estate/Sony will probably try to find ideal compromises as they did on Xscape. Since that model worked they will probably keep focusing their efforts on similar releases. I am not totally crazy about that as a hard core fan, because I don't think Timbaland or any other of these current producers can add much to Michael's art, other than a flash in the pan commercial success, which is what Sony is aiming for, but which is not my priority as a hard core fan who is interested in Michael's art in the first place not Timbaland's or anyone else's. But it is what it is, it worked commercially so they will probably keep doing similar stuff in the future and if we can get pure demos from MJ as well that way, then so be it, I can live with the compromise.

I don't think they expect much from this OTW project. Maybe they are simply doing it because Spike is doing this docu so they hope it will boost the album's sales a little, but other than that, it seems they stopped putting much effort in re-releases of old albums. Probably because old MJ albums, the original ones, sell anyway.

I'm not talking just about the demos. They could have put those 6 demos + 6 contemporizations by Timbaland for example on CD 2 instead of those remixes no one was really interested in. Also they could have released DVD or blu-ray in 2012 instead of VHS! And a bad one.

I answered this thing about the concert in my last post. IMO it would not be a big selling point for the general public even if it was in super-duper HD quality.

 

[OnirMJ]

Please be aware, tygger has now been perminantely excluded from MJJC.

Is this warning for going off topic? If it is, sorry.

 

[Bubs]

I think for next release they should get Ronson involved with it. What you think of it?

 

[OnirMJ]

I think for next release they should get Ronson involved with it. What you think of it?

Although I think it was a little harsh if someone got banned for going off topic, but yes, we went out of topic. The topic of this thread is Spike Lee's Off The Wall Documentary and its accompanying CD re-release. So let's get back on the topic. If that was the problem here, Gaz?

But yes, I would like to see Ronson on the next MJ release doing some unfinished songs.

 

[Bubs]

Although I think it was a little harsh if someone got banned for going off topic, but yes, we went out of topic. The topic of this thread is Spike Lee's Off The Wall Documentary and its accompanying CD re-release. So let's get back on the topic. If that was the problem here, Gaz?

But yes, I would like to see Ronson on the next MJ release doing some unfinished songs.

I don't think that was the only reason he got banned, and don't think Gaz's post meant warning to stay on topic. Tygger's only reason here was to insert in every post how bad executors are and to be honest, seemingly he was obsessively trying to get Ivy, no matter what was the topic.

Anyways, I thought Ronson could be good choice to work on next release, but I'm not certain about "finishing" MJ's songs