Victory was Michael's biggest mistake

I respectfully disagree, back in the 80's, and I still remember vividly, Michael Jackson, Prince, Pink Floyd, U2, Madonna, no huge act or artists performed a full album on stage, only singles realeased that hit the Hot 100 or European Charts,

Michael could've performed Beat it, Billie Jean, Human Nature, Don't Stop, Rock with U, She's out of my life (and hypothetically OTW & Thriller) and that's it! Motown solo albums were not allowed to be performed (except samples and medley) So yeah Victory was a great choice bringing The Jacksons songs + MJ songs would make a FULL show, it's obvious..

Even Top 10 singles were never performed by MJ : PYT, Leave me Alone, Liberian Girl, etc.. it's hard to meet with a live show quality for some tracks
I don’t see the problem with re creating an album track with a live band, it doesn’t need to match 100%. Besides that your explanation doesn’t hold up as he performed working day and night which was never a single and during the 70s the Jackson 5 performed several songs on tours that were never single releases, many of them were probably B sides though but definitely not all.
Why would Motown songs not be allowed? It’s live you do what you want.

Anyway, we disagree so that’s it 🙂
 
Looking at the 30th anniversary shows Michael was in no condition to do a world tour during that time.
Problem of 30th anniversary is drugs... Michael was sleepy. But he was in a pretty good shape
 
I respectfully disagree, back in the 80's, and I still remember vividly, Michael Jackson, Prince, Pink Floyd, U2, Madonna, no huge act or artists performed a full album on stage, only singles realeased that hit the Hot 100 or European Charts,

Michael could've performed Beat it, Billie Jean, Human Nature, Don't Stop, Rock with U, She's out of my life (and hypothetically OTW & Thriller) and that's it! Motown solo albums were not allowed to be performed (except samples and medley) So yeah Victory was a great choice bringing The Jacksons songs + MJ songs would make a FULL show, it's obvious..

Even Top 10 singles were never performed by MJ : PYT, Leave me Alone, Liberian Girl, etc.. it's hard to meet with a live show quality for some tracks
I agree with most of this, but in the end, there were only four jacksons songs performed on the ‘victory’ tour. those were the ones that michael sang lead on, and ‘heartbreak hotel’ can be considered a solo song on a group album. this doesn’t include the j5 medley and jermaine’s solo set that helped extend the show’s length (which some concertgoers still complained about).

my point is that whether michael toured alone or with his brothers, it wouldn’t have changed the content of the show that much. with the exception that he would have had to perform ‘thriller’ (which I would have loved), the song that the tour would have been named after, and a huge hit in its own right.

there would have been enough hits to choose from; ‘thriller’ had 7. ‘off the wall’ had 4 (5 in the uk 🇬🇧). he could have even reworked features and duets such as ‘say say say’, ‘somebody’s watching me’. ‘farewell my summer love’ became a hit during that time as well.

ultimately I think michael made the right decision by not only performing the hits, but the best ones that translated well to the stage.
 
I just got done watching this documentary on the ‘victory’ tour. it was quite informative. it even has the deleted scene from the Pepsi commercial I wrote about earlier in another thread. it’s pretty balanced with the fans/success and critics/facts
 
Off topic, but in the video and photoshoots with McCartney you can see MJ tried to darken his skin before trying to even it out with with lighter make up; just like he said. It's also the same time he claimed the vitiligo came up: 'around OTW and Thriller'
I just mention it for the many, many people that still think MJ 'wanted to be white'
 
Off topic, but in the video and photoshoots with McCartney you can see MJ tried to darken his skin before trying to even it out with with lighter make up; just like he said. It's also the same time he claimed the vitiligo came up: 'around OTW and Thriller'
I just mention it for the many, many people that still think MJ 'wanted to be white'
his skin colour in ‘say say say’ was the same as it was in ‘thriller’ and the pepsi street advert. it was his natural tone. there was no need to darkening anything.

however, you’re right in that this is off topic. so I won’t discuss this here..
 
I'm not a fan of the album nor the tour, but one thing it did do was expose him to an American audience, during arguably his commercial peak and crucially it kept Thriller in the charts, thankfully he cut the tour short and left the group when he did.

However I do think it was a mistake he didn't do more stadiums on the American leg of the Bad Tour. Mike did that many arena shows he was bound to get tired and sick. 123 shows in 14 months with the energy he performed at would wear anyone out. Rather than having to do 4 or 5 shows in the same place, he could have done 1 or 2 and conserved his voice and energy much more.
 
Victory Tour was his best move :

- Thriller Tour? sing what? 5 or 6 hits of his? He hadn't enough catalogue to score at that time, even during Bad Tour he performed 2 of The Jacksons songs to fullfil his playlist

- He had no choice but bring his brother under Victory Banner, so Thriller would be treasured...

- No way he would have brougt his brothers to a Thriller Tour to sing Jacksons songs, Thriller means Michael Jackson himself as the coming King of Pop, no way he would have messed things up back then (see Motown 25 Billie Jean performance : brothers not allowed on stage)
And why couldn't he sing The Jacksons songs by himself? In the same manner he did during the Bad Tour? Most of them were mostly written and sung by him anyway. And also, 5 or 6 hits? What?
Wanna Be Startin' Somethin', Thriller, Billie Jean, Beat it, Human Nature, P.Y.T, The Girl Is Mine - that's 7 already only from Thriller.
If you add Don't Stop Til' You get Enough, Rock With You, Off The Wall and She's Out Of My Life - you have a total of 11 solo songs.

To that you can surely add Ben as well, perhaps Got To Be There and maybe something like One Day In Your Life should he have toured the UK. That's more than the number of songs he performed during the Victory Tour. 14 in total. And it's excluding songs such as Heartbreak Hotel or Things I Do For You, which he would have most assuredly performed by himself on a possible Thriller Tour.
 
his skin colour in ‘say say say’ was the same as it was in ‘thriller’ and the pepsi street advert. it was his natural tone. there was no need to darkening anything.

however, you’re right in that this is off topic. so I won’t discuss this here..
I disagree wholeheartedly but will save it for a different thread :)
 
huge act or artists performed a full album on stage, only singles realeased that hit the Hot 100 or European Charts,
Genesis have performed non singles on their tours, and Phil Collins has done the same on his solo tours. And Linkin Park played their entire first album during a show.
 
Genesis have performed non singles on their tours, and Phil Collins has done the same on his solo tours.
It's pretty standard for rock bands / artists to play album tracks or even, occasionally, new songs that haven't even been recorded yet. They also are better at mixing up the playlist. Bon Jovi always had 4 or 5 songs per show that could be dropped in or out of the set list. I don't understand why pop acts do things differently. There must be a reason, I just can't work out what it is.

And Linkin Park played their entire first album during a show.
Tbf, that wasn't so long ago, was it? 2014? 2017? I can't remember but it was fairly recent - ish. It's become quite the thing for bands to tour a specific album and play it in its entirety, usually in track list order.

In normal circumstances artists just perform their new album. Performing all of the Thriller songs [...]
I don't know what happens these days but back in the 70's / 80's / 90's bands would play anything from 50% - 80% of a new album but wouldn't usually play the whole thing. When they did, people complained. Loudly, lol. In recent years bands have built a whole tour around playing one album in full but it's still not standard, afaik. But I'm talking about rock bands. I'm not sure what stadium level pop acts do.
 
It's pretty standard for rock bands / artists to play album tracks or even, occasionally, new songs that haven't even been recorded yet. They also are better at mixing up the playlist. Bon Jovi always had 4 or 5 songs per show that could be dropped in or out of the set list. I don't understand why pop acts do things differently. There must be a reason, I just can't work out what it is.
Some acts like Bruce Springsteen & Prince would also perform cover versions of other artists songs in concert.

Probably because acts like Michael Jackson concerts are closer to a Broadway show than a rock band. It's a production that can't be changed that easily. Rock artists don't generally do choreography & skits.
 
Pff The Jacksons changed 5 or more songs in their setlist from 1 show to another just two days apart in 1976, that's what you rehearse for. Even in 1970 they changed up their setlist from show to show. The Destiny tour had changes every couple of weeks, early on they played "the Jacksons" + "destiny" album, then incorporated some old Motown hits and later on Off the Wall hits. Now they never performed an entire album on stage of course but that's not the point I'm trying to make.
In Belgium our biggest pop band (Clouseau) and biggest rock band (dEUS) often performs their new albums from start to finish on a couple of shows.

I really need to stop thinking about it, it frustrates me to no end how boring Michael's setlist were :eek:
 
Some acts like Bruce Springsteen & Prince would also perform cover versions of other artists songs in concert.
That's pretty standard, though. Even Faith No More would do a cover version of 'Easy' by the Commodores or insert a section of 911 Is A Joke into one of their songs. Doing cover versions is as old as the hills. Michael might not have done them but most singers do, at some point in their career.

Probably because acts like Michael Jackson concerts are closer to a Broadway show than a rock band. It's a production that can't be changed that easily.
I disagree. These shows are tightly rehearsed, everyone involved is a professional at the top of their game. There is no reason that I can see why you can't have a small number of songs that can be swapped in and out. I don't think Bon Jovi changed the set list every single night but they gave themselves the option of changing things just a little bit every few shows. And I don't think Michael's shows were that much like a Broadway show. Madonna's shows are, for sure. Michael's, not so much, imo. He didn't have the huge stage sets that she uses. He did have his dance routines and the magic tricks. I still think, as the star of the show, he could have given himself a bit more freedom. Not that I'm really arguing with Michael. His tours were massively successful.
 
Pff The Jacksons changed 5 or more songs in their setlist from 1 show to another just two days apart in 1976,
f&m, I wish I had waited for this, lol. Then I could just go, 'All of this'.

that's what you rehearse for.
I was just trying to make that exact point. That is exactly what rehearsals are for.

Even in 1970 they changed up their setlist from show to show.
Indeed.

Now they never performed an entire album on stage of course but that's not the point I'm trying to make.
Fair enough.
 
The victory tour was the definite highlight of that whole era. The album, was the let down. But MJ going to perform, he's just going, does it really matter how? There's nothing to quibble about. MJ didn't really wanna perform or promote Thriller at that time anyway.
 
"Victory was Michael's biggest mistake."
"Victory was a huge disappointment to his fans."
"Nobody cared for any of the songs."
"His gigantic success of Thriller was slowed down by the Victory album and the tour."
... and more garbage.
:poop:😵‍💫o_O🤦‍♂️


Victory is a MASTERPIECE and JOY for us fans!!
 
It has also been written that the singer slept more than 30 consecutive nights in the same bed with Jordan Chandler at the boy's house
It was written only by the tabloids. Do you fact check your sources?

From the testimony of June Chandler under oath in 2005 (not the paid bs for the tabloids):

Q. After you got back from Monaco, did Michael Jackson spend nights at your home?
A. Yes.

Q. Were the 30 nights you’ve described after you got back from Monaco?
A. No.

Q. How many nights after you got back from Monaco do you think Michael Jackson stayed at your home?
A. Oh, perhaps a week or two.

Dear @mj_frenzy, please, stop spreading the bs. We, the educated MJ fans, are tired of your misinformation. Educate yourself or stop posting your lies here. Thanks.
 
It was written only by the tabloids. Do you fact check your sources?
It was also confirmed by Gary Hearne (Michael Jackson's personal chauffeur at the time) who testified in his sworn deposition about that.

Gary Hearne, for a period of about 30 days, would take the singer there at night (to sleep in the same bed with the boy) and he would pick him up in the morning when the boy went to school.
 
It was also confirmed by Gary Hearne (Michael Jackson's personal chauffeur at the time) who testified in his sworn deposition about that.

Gary Hearne, for a period of about 30 days, would take the singer there at night (to sleep in the same bed with the boy) and he would pick him up in the morning when the boy went to school.
I don't like to hear that as it's not normal behaviour between an adult and a child.

Still don't believe it's true though
 
It was also confirmed by Gary Hearne (Michael Jackson's personal chauffeur at the time) who testified in his sworn deposition about that.

Gary Hearne, for a period of about 30 days, would take the singer there at night (to sleep in the same bed with the boy) and he would pick him up in the morning when the boy went to school.
Seriously? Again? Have you ever been reading the documents, dear "fan"? Or are you an alter ego of DR?

Q Okay. And it's my understanding it was at least a month's worth of nights in a row that you took him there, correct? 30 days?
A I remember that was the one of the headlines in the paper about that testimony. That's why I remember the number. I think the question I was asked was my best estimate of the number of times. And I said it could have been 20, 40. I don't, I didn't know.

Q
Okay.
A I was working seven days a week and the days just kind of ran together.

So in the depositions Gary Hearne said that he didn't know and that he had just read it in the newspapers (the usual tabloids).
 
On February 9, 2016, Gary Hearne, Michael's long time driver was deposed by Wade and James lawyers' Vince Finaldi and Marzano. He debunked and cleared up many myths that have been circulating for decades. He also provided new insight into the Chandler case.

Hearne does not believe Wade's allegations or any of the other allegations.
Hearne says Michael was rarely at Neverland and spent most of his time in the LA area. And most of the time he was working.
Lisa Marie: Hearne says their marriage didn't surprise him. They dated for a year before they got married. They were regularly with each other. He saw them kissing in the back seat. He drove them to private dinners.
Hearne dispelled the claim that Michael always had kids around him.
Hearne says that half the time or more there were no children at Neverland when Michael was there. He also says kids were often at Neverland without Michael.
Hearne recalled only two specific times of driving Wade and his family or friends (a single trip to-and-from Neverland). It was Wade, Joy & his friends. Hearne said MJ was not at the ranch on this occasion.
Hearne says whenever Mj was in the car with kids the privacy screen was never up.
Hearne talks about Michael's habit of buying gifts. He brought gifts for kids, adults, his friends, his business associates, ect. Finaldi tries to ignore the context of Michael buying gifts to only focus on the kids.
Hearne then says he never saw anything inappropriate between Michael and Jordan. Never even saw him with his arm around him. Says he would have remembered seeing a child touched inappropriately.
Hearne denies tabloid claims about Michael sneaking children into Neveland.
Hearne denies the long held myth that he helped removed evidence before the 1993 raid.
Hearne says he knew Evan Chandler was behind the allegations as soon as he heard them. He confirms that Evan was deadbeat dad and narcissist. He also reveals that Jordan and June were already estranged from Evan when Michael started spending time with them. According to Hearne, Jordan got CLOSER to Evan while he was with Michael. And Michael seemed to welcome Evan. It's possible that Michael is the one who brought father and son back together.
Hearne then describes the infamous meeting at the hotel where Evan "confronted" Michael about "abusing" Jordan. According to Hearne, both Evan and Jordan were "upbeat" when they arrived and they brought gifts for Michael. However when they came out Evan was angry and stonefaced.
Hearne then reiterates he believes Evan made up the allegations as a way to get what he wanted. He states again that Evan was a narcissist.
Hearne had nothing negative to say about Michael except that he was not great at keeping appointments. He would sometimes trust people he shouldn't have. He also mistrusted people he sometimes should have. He was not a very good housekeeper. He says Michael was his favorite employer to work for. He has fond memories.
Finaldi then asks about Michael sleeping at June's house again. Finaldi suggests Michael had an opportunity to engage in "sexual activities" with Jordan since he was staying at the house. Hearne counters by saying MJ had the same opportunity with "anyone in that house" but he says he doesn't believe Michael had sexual contact with anyone in the house.
He didn't find it weird because it was clear to him that Michael, June Jordan and Lily were like a little family and they all seemed happy together.
Besides Lisa Marie, Hearne saw Michael go out with Brooke Shields.
Finaldi tries to suggest Michael paid special attention to Lisa Marie's son. Hearne says Michael spent time with Lisa's daughter as well and the 4 of them were together as a group.
Hearne again says he believes Wade's allegations are false.


@mj_frenzy and all others that are cutting the phrases from the context: read the documents carefully and don't be losers like DR, DD and all other opportunists.
 
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