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Victory was Michael's biggest mistake

83magic said:
if things happened the way cbs intended in that letter, there would have been no breathing room for michael’s albums to make the impact that they did.

having said that, i do think spending almost two years releasing singles from the same album is excessive. unless the singles all come with videos and remixes/b sides. or maybe release the singles without an album? to keep that element of surprise.
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I wonder what their intent was with releasing an album every year around that time. Seems Michael was on board but that would’ve exhausted him for sure with little to no rest time
 
BlackAnon said:
I wonder what their intent was with releasing an album every year around that time. Seems Michael was on board but that would’ve exhausted him for sure with little to no rest time
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yes, he already felt overexposed around the time of the pepsi advert.
I still wonder why he didn’t appear in the ‘torture’ video despite having lead vocals on the song. could be for the same reason🤔
 
83magic said:
yes, he already felt overexposed around the time of the pepsi advert.
I still wonder why he didn’t appear in the ‘torture’ video despite having lead vocals on the song. could be for the same reason🤔
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Till this day I'll nether I'll never understand why he didn't do it
 
83magic said:
I still wonder why he didn’t appear in the ‘torture’ video despite having lead vocals on the song. could be for the same reason🤔
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Jermaine wasn't in the video either and he was the co-lead. The video was probably shot before Jermaine rejoined the group, because there's only 5 figures shown and not 6. Torture was originally Jackie & Mike. When Jermaine came in he replaced Jackie's lead. Jermaine also does not have any solo leads on the Victory album like the other brothers. Randy has 2. But Jermaine had his self-titled (in the US) solo album out at the same time, his first after leaving Motown.
 
Jermaine joined last minute. Even in one of the articles I posted, it doesn’t mention Jermaine submitting any material but it mentions all the solo material the rest of the brothers submitted. He was also working on his own album so that could be why he wasn’t in it

Michael had prior commitments but more than likely, he just didn’t want to do it
 
BlackAnon said:
Michael had prior commitments but more than likely, he just didn’t want to do it
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It might have to do with the imagery in the video. Mike was going to destroy the Thriller video before it had been released, until John Landis came up with the disclaimer idea. I think all of the other brothers had left the Jehovah's Witnesses by this point, so they would not have the same problem with what was in the Torture video. Mike did not perform Thriller on the Victory Tour either.
 
DuranDuran said:
It might have to do with the imagery in the video. Mike was going to destroy the Thriller video before it had been released, until John Landis came up with the disclaimer idea. I think all of the other brothers had left the Jehovah's Witnesses by this point, so they would not have the same problem with what was in the Torture video. Mike did not perform Thriller on the Victory Tour either.
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I think it was Marlon that mentioned Thriller wasn’t performed because Michael wasn’t satisfied with the sound of it but I can’t remember if that was truth or not…..besides, I wouldn’t expect him to perform the entire Thriller album
 
it’s unlikely that michael was ever going to perform ‘thriller’ on the ‘victory’ tour. especially since he gave that interview with the jw publication ‘awake’ magazine earlier that year, in which he apologised for making the video, and promised not to do it again.

though ‘thriller’ was sorely missing from the set list, I fear it would have suffered the same fate as ‘beat it’;

michael half heartedly attempting portions of the choreography, with only marlon chiming in every so often.

not being sung in the original key.

no special staging..

I saw a news report that claimed the reason for the song’s absence was because vincent price was unavailable to join them on tour. I personally doubt this.

they also announced during the early stages that mick jagger would be performing ‘state of shock’ with them. he personally refuted that..

I personally think that michael had no interest in touring at the time, whether it was solo or with the group. he didn’t need to either.
 
Thanks for the info about his CBS contract, I really would have liked if they could have forced (that maybe a strong word) him to fullfill this contract, maybe one by year is too much but Michael have wasted too much times between albums, it was his prime years creativily and in term of success, he should have used his youth more wisely, later it was another problems he wasted too much times for these two years for his solo tour (specially when we know that he hated that), he has so much amazing demo who could have been strong success.

About the Torture video I remember to have read from the director or the producer that Michael have participated in the concept, but have disappeared during the production, the remain brothers have left the project after 3 days of shooting without reason. so it was very complicated to complete that.

There are an interview in a podcast from the publicist of the Victory tour that the tension were not between the brothers (according to him they loved Michael) but with the head of CBS who wanted to kill the group, Michael didn't want to leave the group according an Ebony interview in late December 84 , it was after the tour, so it's curious.
 
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blair said:
Thanks for the info about his CBS contract, I really would have liked if they could have forced (that maybe a strong word) him to fullfill this contract, maybe one by year is too much but Michael have wasted too much times between albums, it was his prime years creativily and in term of success, he should have used his youth more wisely, later it was another problems he wasted too much times for these two years for his solo tour (specially when we know that he hated that), he has so much amazing demo who could have been strong success.

About the Torture video I remember to have read from the director or the producer that Michael have participated in the concept, but have disappeared during the production, the remain brothers have left the project after 3 days of shooting without reason. so it was very complicated to complete that.

There are an interview in a podcast from the publicist of the Victory tour that the tension were not between the brothers (according to him they loved Michael) but with the head of CBS who wanted to kill the group, Michael didn't want to leave the group according an Ebony interview in late December 84 , it was after the tour, so it's curious.
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do you have a link to the podcast, or just a title? I’d be interested in listening to it?
 
I have always some doubt about the intensity of Michael reaction for Thriller video and if he really wanted to stop the sales of the music video, I wonder if it was not simply to calm down the JW, I mean he have just after that made various participation to song with strong horror themes like Somebody Watching Me, Centipede, Torture and later Eaten Alive, two of these titles are written by him; there are also that the Victory tour have scary moments with strong supernatural elements, close to the horror, that don't make any sense.

For Thriller and State of Shock I believe that they wanted Vincent Price and Jagger but ultimately they couldn't have them for the tour, for Jagger it's 100% sure they have asked him, if I remember correctly he have said he didn't want to do it because it was too much to travel to USA for just one song in a concert, there are also this test sound that he have been posted by Sugarfoot Muffett from the Victory tour:


So apparently they were very serious to make that, for Thriller I think that would have probably have done after Working Day of Night, because the scary transition, honestly Michael should have replaced them with others iconic horror actor and popular rock singer, for example someone like Robert Englund (or someone older) for the voice and could ask to Van Halen group to replace Jagger, I mean I like State of Shock, that have a good success but it was not the biggest song of Michael, for Thriller it was more complicated because the iconic performance of Price, but I think they could have found another actor.
 
blair said:
there are also this test sound that he have been posted by Sugarfoot Muffett from the Victory tour:

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Lol it sounds so kid boppish. Kind of glad they didn't do it. Idk what was with the sound for the victory tour but triumph sores the victory tour sound. Wish they had the o.g band for that tour
 
Well that just a test, I think that would have been better, but I disagree I like it and can see the potential, Triumph tour is great, but I still prefer Victory tour, I find sometimes Triumph instrumental tour a little too strong (specially in Can you feel it, don't still you get enough or shake your body), they were good but a little too classic in comparaison to their studio version, when Victory tour sound is more clean, more pure and more ambitious, specially in comparaison after that to his solo tours who are chaotics and too mediocre.
 
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blair said:
I have always some doubt about the intensity of Michael reaction for Thriller video and if he really wanted to stop the sales of the music video, I wonder if it was not simply to calm down the JW, I mean he have just after that made various participation to song with strong horror themes like Somebody Watching Me, Centipede, Torture and later Eaten Alive, two of these titles are written by him; there are also that the Victory tour have scary moments with strong supernatural elements, close to the horror, that don't make any sense.

For Thriller and State of Shock I believe that they wanted Vincent Price and Jagger but ultimately they couldn't have them for the tour, for Jagger it's 100% sure they have asked him, if I remember correctly he have said he didn't want to do it because it was too much to travel to USA for just one song in a concert, there are also this test sound that he have been posted by Sugarfoot Muffett from the Victory tour:


So apparently they were very serious to make that, for Thriller I think that would have probably have done after Working Day of Night, because the scary transition, honestly Michael should have replaced them with others iconic horror actor and popular rock singer, for example someone like Robert Englund (or someone older) for the voice and could ask to Van Halen group to replace Jagger, I mean I like State of Shock, that have a good success but it was not the biggest song of Michael, for Thriller it was more complicated because the iconic performance of Price, but I think they could have found another actor.
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I agree. That whole "sword in the stone", which was probably Michaels idea, didn't add anything to the show, especially since they didn't perform songs from the album. The Kreeton theme was also over the top.

I agree with SOS being performed after WDAN.

I don't see how Price and Jagger would've agreed to touring with them across the state
 
Sorry I mean that don't make any sense if Michael really wanted to erase every occult/horror and have such big trouble with Thriller if just after he add these dark elements for his tour, it's clear the Kreetons was his creation, there are some sketch from him about them.

I'm a big fan of the Sword in the stones, it's very well done and I really love the music, he should have included in Victory album, for me that represent Michael of this time, his solo tour were less ambitious.

Sorry if my message was not very clear but I think Thriller was supposed to be after WDAN, I see State of Shock take place after or in place Shake your body.

For Price and Jagger, Michael was maybe too ambitious, but why not ? He was able to have Van Hallen just for Beat it.
 
I really wish he'd performed thriller. I bet any amount of money had jackie been on the tour...it would've been alot different. I wonder if he even rehearsed with them
 
wonderouzmj said:
I really wish he'd performed thriller. I bet any amount of money had jackie been on the tour...it would've been alot different. I wonder if he even rehearsed with them
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I don't think Jackie would've made much of a difference performance wise outside of him being on stage playing the tambourine or something
 
blair said:
I have always some doubt about the intensity of Michael reaction for Thriller video and if he really wanted to stop the sales of the music video, I wonder if it was not simply to calm down the JW,
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Yes the article looks a bit edited too, as if they exaggerated his comments
 
BlackAnon said:
I don't think Jackie would've made much of a difference performance wise outside of him being on stage playing the tambourine or something
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jackie would have supported marlon with the choreography, so he wouldn’t look so awkward on his own shadowing michael from a distance. it would have been like the previous jacksons tours in that regard.
 
SmoothCriminal1995 said:
As a fan I'd have loved more music from Michael in his peak, but for a young man he was wise enough to realise that the anticipation for the next record and the mystery surrounding him was part of his artistry
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I would've loved something between 1983 and 1986. I want to hear music from these years the most
 
I believe everything worked out for the best. quality over quantity. michael was able to create everlasting moments without overexposing himself. 1983 was the perfect example of that 💜I don’t think there were any outtakes that could compete with the major hits anyway. my only regret was the pepsi commercial & ‘victory’ tour. the j5/jacksons final appearance should have been at the motown 25 show.
 
83magic said:
I believe everything worked out for the best. quality over quantity. michael was able to create everlasting moments without overexposing himself. 1983 was the perfect example of that 💜I don’t think there were any outtakes that could compete with the major hits anyway. my only regret was the pepsi commercial & ‘victory’ tour. the j5/jacksons final appearance should have been at the motown 25 show.
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Victory did nothing for Michaels discography. Would've been better doing a Thriller tour from mid 1984 to end of 1985
 
Smh off the wall should've had its own tour as well but triumph is 🔥🔥 compared to victory. I wish they had the same energy. & I wish they never hired Paula. Jackie would've been on stage
 
From the little I've read and seen online, Michael mainly did the "Victory" tour for his brothers. What he really wanted at the time was to support "Thriller", but Joe pressured him into a different decision.
 
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