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Coroners Report released - GRAPHIC CONTENT (Threads merged)

Beachlover said:
Well, it is possible the last Propofol was given at 11:40, not 10:40. It is also probable the DA knows the exact times because there were others in the house that spoke to the police and these people have never given any interviews.
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I don't think it is very likely any other person could have known the time - they were most probably not allowed in the room, how could they know?
 
Beachlover said:
Well, it is possible the last Propofol was given at 11:40, not 10:40. It is also probable the DA knows the exact times because there were others in the house that spoke to the police and these people have never given any interviews.
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the only problem he was on the phone between 11.22 and 12:05 .and according to him MJ was demanding and begging for propofol , he was fully awake , I doubt he would talk on the phone while MJ was 'begging'
 
Soundmind said:
wendy2004 said:
I believe it was a blood pressure cuff or something like that. It wasn't anything that would be considered "lifesaving" or that would fall into the category of equipment meeting the standard of care for administrating propofol at general surgery levels tho.

I believe it was at the house as well.

Agree with the bolded. Murray is in deep doo. But if the prosecution drops the ball, he will walk. They seriously need to get over what they THINK or wanted to believe about MJ and see the evidence with clear unbiased eyes.

The reason I think MJ was not conscious is becuz there's propofol in the bottled urine. Once you're out, you're out. He'd be unable to ask...until he woke up. And we now know Michael didn't wake up. The only way he could ask is if he received a round of propofol earlier that morning and woke up, asked Murray to empty him, and then received a second batch of propofol from which he didn't wake up. However, according to Murray, he gave Michael one dose that morning. Michael could only metabolize the propofol AFTER it entered his body. And once propofol entered his body, we was unconscious.

That's why I initially asked if it was possible for Michael to produce enough propofol-benzo laced urine (urine bladder AND bottled urine) during the time Murray gave. If Michael died almost immediately, that would be impossible. The urine had to have been produced MUCH earlier...either from that night or earlier that morning in order for both samples to have propofol in them.[/QUOTE]

MJ died immediatley after a bolus injection , or died minutes after he was given propofol if it was give through an IV infusion , he died while he was under propofol , there is no doubt about it . and there is no doubt the amounts he was given were small relatively , it would not have been enough to sedate him for more than counted minutes .

as for the urine at the scene , I don't believe MJ would have been able to produce all that urine , the amounts 460 +550 means 24 hours , I can't explain it .
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Ok. Let me try to explain urine production. The 'least' amount that functioning kidneys should produce is 30-50 an hour. That is what is considered the bottom number if you take in NO OTHER DRINK at all. Your body STILL produces urine even if you don't drink because it is a natural function of your body to get rid of wastes.

If he drank 2L of water (lets say 1 Liter is 1000cc) then he would produce 1000cc of urine. Each large bag of IV fluid is 1000cc or 1 Litre. Usually around 250cc in the bladder you start to feel you have to 'go'. Some people can go much more often and some people go less often. Someone with an enlarged prostate will 'usually' go more often because it is uncomfortable due to the urinary retention, so they always have a reserve in the bladder.

I believe the
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gtbt said:
I don't think it is very likely any other person could have known the time - they were most probably not allowed in the room, how could they know?
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I am just thinking these people who arrived on the scene , such as the EMT workers know much more than we know. We never heard their interview and have everything second hand.

As it stands, the only things being released are things they are allowing to be released. For instance, we don't have the hair tox results and I think thats for a reason.

Also need to point out to everyone looking, they tested for certain things only, or only released certain tests to us. Not all. There are still a lot of things which we do not know because we have never heard first hand from a lot of people and thats probably for a reason.
 
Soundmind said:
by the way why lorazepam & midazolam were detected in his heart blood and not in his blood ? what's the difference ?
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Not sure on this. This is a forensic science question. It isn't something we check in the hospital except under certain instances, such as cord blood for babies.

I am thinking though this has something to do with how permeable our cells are and why it shows up in the eyes, etc. Sorry I can't be more helpful there.
 
Hi everybody,

Could urine retention play a role in this ?

I mean, people who have this problem sometimes can not fully empty their bladder. So is possible that both samples of urine (bottle, and the the one from his bladder) are not that different because they were produced at about the same time ?

I hope I'm making sense, I'm really tired tonight !

And, is it possible to cross the tox results with what Murray said to the LAPD (I'm talking about the other meds he said he gave). I'm surprised they found only the equiment he used to give propofol, if I remember correctly they did not find lozarepam or the other meds on the equiment, yet they found the empty propofol bottles and the equipment he used to inject it.

And, is it possible that what is said in the serach warrants be a police theory as Chernoff said ? has it happened before. I don't think it can be a mistake, they mention 11h00 several times.
 
Soundmind said:
the only problem he was on the phone between 11.22 and 12:05 .and according to him MJ was demanding and begging for propofol , he was fully awake , I doubt he would talk on the phone while MJ was 'begging'
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I don't doubt he was on the phone while in the room at all. I could imagine MJ waking up and him putting the phone down and giving the Propofol. I don't believe the story about leaving for 2 minutes to relieve himself.

I think the jack*ss sat there at the bedside and got over confident and injected him in between his own personal crap and wasn't paying attention. He let his guard down.

Also, they didn't say they found Urinary Catheters in the room, so I don't think he used one to collect the urine. Someone here mentioned that so just saying that I think the urine came out naturally. If he had an external urinary catheter it should have been connected to a foley catheter bag for drainage or else it serves no purpose.
 
Beachlover said:
Well, it is possible the last Propofol was given at 11:40, not 10:40. It is also probable the DA knows the exact times because there were others in the house that spoke to the police and these people have never given any interviews.
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Beachlover said:
I am just thinking these people who arrived on the scene , such as the EMT workers know much more than we know. We never heard their interview and have everything second hand.
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How could the EMT's possibly know anything about the time Murray gave him Propofol, if they found Michael aysistolic, pupils fixed and dilated, and non responsive to treatment, in other words... gone.
 
10:40 am Propofol 25 mg

11:18 am - Phone call to Las Vegas office (32 minutes / as being reported)

11:49 am - Phone call to a Las Vegas cell phone (3 minutes / as being reported)

11:51 am - Phone call to Houston (11 minutes / as being reported)

12:05 or 12:10 pm - Murray runs downstairs and screams, "Go get Prince!" (According to Chef)

He could have given the Propofol at 11:40 if you follow this time line.

I only have doubts because he would have had to find the Flumazenil in his bag and give that too. Thinking on this one because he should have started CPR immediately.
 
He did not even tell them he gave Michael Propofol are you serious? He told them he gave Michael two separate dose of Lorzanpain. And there was a box of cafthers in the room along with a plastic cover laying on the bed come on you know where it came from
 
Popescu said:
How could the EMT's possibly know anything about the time Murray gave him Propofol, if they found Michael aysistolic, pupils fixed and dilated, and non responsive to treatment, in other words... gone.
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I didn't say they would know if he gave Propofol but they would know more about the condition of Michael and the condition of the room and the emotional state Murray was in at the time.

Pupils fixed and dilated means he was overdosed and you can still recover from this state. Hard to explain all the things they could have observed at the scene that would be helpful to the DA. As far as asystolic, this can happen within seconds too so you can't 'know' for sure when that happened.
 
Beachlover said:
10:40 am Propofol 25 mg

11:18 am - Phone call to Las Vegas office (32 minutes / as being reported)

11:49 am - Phone call to a Las Vegas cell phone (3 minutes / as being reported)

11:51 am - Phone call to Houston (11 minutes / as being reported)

12:05 or 12:10 pm - Murray runs downstairs and screams, "Go get Prince!" (According to Chef)

He could have given the Propofol at 11:40 if you follow this time line.

I only have doubts because he would have had to find the Flumazenil in his bag and give that too. Thinking on this one because he should have started CPR immediately.
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But isn't 11.40 not between but during the 32 minutes phonecall?
 
Justthefacts said:
He did not even tell them he gave Michael Propofol are you serious? He told them he gave Michael two separate dose of Lorzanpain. And there was a box of cafthers in the room along with a plastic cover laying on the bed come on you know where it came from
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Hey, back up. The catheters that I noted were found in the room were IV catheters, not urinary, unless you know differently and can point me to the correct page.

I am not talking about what MJ told the EMT's. I am saying what we don't know. What are you jumping on me for?
 
Justthefacts said:
He did not even tell them he gave Michael Propofol are you serious? He told them he gave Michael two separate dose of Lorzanpain. And there was a box of cafthers in the room along with a plastic cover laying on the bed come on you know where it came from
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And this is Murray we are talking about. He did not have basic monitoring equipment, why on earth would he need a foley catheter bag, when bottles work just fine. Catheter, tube, bottle.
 
Beachlover said:
Hey, back up. The catheters that I noted were found in the room were IV catheters, not urinary, unless you know differently and can point me to the correct page.

I am not talking about what MJ told the EMT's. I am saying what we don't know. What are you jumping on me for?
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MJ did not tell anything to the EMT's. He was dead when they arrived. As in um, dead.
 
Well if it had happened within seconds like Murray wants us to think it did why did he insist on the EMTS working on Michael in the house and not getting him to the hospital right away? And it was Murray's lawyer who said Michael still had a heartbeat when they left to go to the hospital
 
gtbt said:
But isn't 11.40 not between but during the 32 minutes phonecall?
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Exactly.

Beachlover said:
Hey, back up. The catheters that I noted were found in the room were IV catheters, not urinary, unless you know differently and can point me to the correct page.

I am not talking about what MJ told the EMT's. I am saying what we don't know. What are you jumping on me for?
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I read it was an external catheter/condom catheter. Not sure of the page just now...
 
sorry, was trying to post a response to the thread, and I ended up messing up this post.
 
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Popescu said:
MJ did not tell anything to the EMT's. He was dead when they arrived. As in um, dead.
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I think she means what Murray said. And I am talking about the fact that Michael had a condom catheter on and a bottle of urine was in his room. Is this not what is done when someone is under Propofol?
 
Beachlover said:
10:40 am Propofol 25 mg

11:18 am - Phone call to Las Vegas office (32 minutes / as being reported)

11:49 am - Phone call to a Las Vegas cell phone (3 minutes / as being reported)

11:51 am - Phone call to Houston (11 minutes / as being reported)

12:05 or 12:10 pm - Murray runs downstairs and screams, "Go get Prince!" (According to Chef)

He could have given the Propofol at 11:40 if you follow this time line.

I only have doubts because he would have had to find the Flumazenil in his bag and give that too. Thinking on this one because he should have started CPR immediately.
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The IV was set up specifically for propofol, wasn't it ?

Could he have set up the IV while he was on the phone ?
 
Justthefacts said:
I think she means what Murray said. And I am talking about the fact that Michael had a condom catheter on and a bottle of urine was in his room. Is this not what is done when someone is under Propofol?
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Well, given the fact that he supposedly had a condom catheter on and there was no drainage bag mentioned....NO it doesn't seem to fit the picture for me. The catheter used is very similar to a condom with a small tube at the end that gets connected to a drainage bag.

How would it get into a bottle unless someone was holding the bottle up to MJ's penis directly and quite frankly, its hard to juggle syringes AND a cell phone at the same time, let alone do that.

Besides.....Murray doesn't seem that bright.
 
Beachlover said:
Also, they didn't say they found Urinary Catheters in the room, so I don't think he used one to collect the urine. Someone here mentioned that so just saying that I think the urine came out naturally. If he had an external urinary catheter it should have been connected to a foley catheter bag for drainage or else it serves no purpose.
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Beachlover said:
Well, given the fact that he supposedly had a condom catheter on and there was no drainage bag mentioned....NO it doesn't seem to fit the picture for me. The catheter used is very similar to a condom with a small tube at the end that gets connected to a drainage bag.

How would it get into a bottle unless someone was holding the bottle up to MJ's penis directly and quite frankly, its hard to juggle syringes AND a cell phone at the same time, let alone do that.

Besides.....Murray doesn't seem that bright.
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But how is the catheter connected to the drainage bad? By a tube right? Like the IV's are connected to the catheters inserted into veins by a similar tube. So that tube might of been pouring into the bottle, not a drainage bag.

As for Murray's intelligence, we have to agree to disagree.
 
bouee said:
The IV was set up specifically for propofol, wasn't it ?

Could he have set up the IV while he was on the phone ?
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He claims to have pushed other drugs earlier and if MJ really was dehydrated he may have also given him straight fluids through the IV also.

Now, here is another stupid thing to consider. Not to throw a fly in the ointment or confuse everyone, BUT....there is also a certain amount of fluid left in those little 'y' tubings that were mentioned and in the hospital a good nurse ALWAYS flushes that line so that no drug remains in the line. I don't know how long the tubing was so I can't say how much fluid would have been in there....BUT....if he didn't flush the line AFTER HE GAVE THE LAST bolus drug before he gave the Propofol, then he effectively pushed MORE of that drug through at the same time as the Propofol. Thats too much drug.

Follow what I just said. Its like a straw that still has fluid in it.
 
Justthefacts said:
Well if it had happened within seconds like Murray wants us to think it did why did he insist on the EMTS working on Michael in the house and not getting him to the hospital right away? And it was Murray's lawyer who said Michael still had a heartbeat when they left to go to the hospital
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I don't think Murrays lawyer said he had a heartbeat when they left to go to the hospital. I think his lawyer said he had a heartbeat when he found him in the room.

I can be wrong on that point. (we already know the beads prove otherwise)
 
Beachlover said:
Those are IV catheters. Not urinary. It doesn't say the urinary catheter is connected to anything. I can't explain that but they would have/should have mentioned a drainage bag.
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It also does not say that the IV catheters were connected to anything, does that mean that they weren't?
 
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