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Coroners Report released - GRAPHIC CONTENT (Threads merged)

Beachlover said:
He claims to have pushed other drugs earlier and if MJ really was dehydrated he may have also given him straight fluids through the IV also.

Now, here is another stupid thing to consider. Not to throw a fly in the ointment or confuse everyone, BUT....there is also a certain amount of fluid left in those little 'y' tubings that were mentioned and in the hospital a good nurse ALWAYS flushes that line so that no drug remains in the line. I don't know how long the tubing was so I can't say how much fluid would have been in there....BUT....if he didn't flush the line AFTER HE GAVE THE LAST bolus drug before he gave the Propofol, then he effectively pushed MORE of that drug through at the same time as the Propofol. Thats too much drug.

Follow what I just said. Its like a straw that still has fluid in it.
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Could this explain why they didn't find traces of the other drugs in the IV ?
 
Popescu said:
And for the last time : "In medicine, asystole (colloquially known as flatline) is a state of no cardiac electrical activity, hence no contractions of the myocardium and no cardiac output or blood flow. Asystole is one of the conditions required for a medical practitioner to certify death." Pupils fixed and dilated mean the same thing. They worked on him for 40 minutes, because Murray insisted they do so. He was higher in rank.

What does that have to do with the 11.40 Propofol time line?
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Well, thanks for the medical information here.

I had no idea.
 
Quick question:

Anyone remember anything about trash? Was there anything mentioned in the autopsy report about disposed items found in any trashbags/pails in the room? One would assume Murray used gloves when handling Michael for medical purposes that night, right? Can't remember now if I read anything about disposed gloves, needles, gauze, etc. Any of you remember? I only read the report once in detail and it's been a few days. Not ready to go back and re-read it just yet...altho I probably will at some point.
 
Beachlover said:
I don't think Murrays lawyer said he had a heartbeat when they left to go to the hospital. I think his lawyer said he had a heartbeat when he found him in the room.

I can be wrong on that point. (we already know the beads prove otherwise)
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Matt Alford did say he had a heartbeat when they left the home .
 
Popescu said:
And for the last time : "In medicine, asystole (colloquially known as flatline) is a state of no cardiac electrical activity, hence no contractions of the myocardium and no cardiac output or blood flow. Asystole is one of the conditions required for a medical practitioner to certify death." Pupils fixed and dilated mean the same thing. They worked on him for 40 minutes, because Murray insisted they do so. He was higher in rank.

What does that have to do with the 11.40 Propofol time line?
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Alright to be fair, I'll explain this too.

In ACLS (Advanced Cardiac Life Support) when the heart goes into asystole in a 50 year old male without previous heart problems you would first try medications to get the heart beating again, while doing Chest Compressions and giving breaths to the patient. I believe I read that they did 2 rounds of the medications. You give Epinephrine and Atropene. These drugs will hopefully get the heart muscle working again. You don't give them one after another, there is a time line between where you wait a little to see if the medicines work, so that takes some time too. 40 minutes seems like an awful long time though.
 
The report says there was a box of catheters in the room. Did not say what kind there were
 
wendy2004 said:
Quick question:

Anyone remember anything about trash? Was there anything mentioned in the autopsy report about disposed items found in any trashbags/pails in the room? One would assume Murray used gloves when handling Michael for medical purposes that night, right? Can't remember now if I read anything about disposed gloves, needles, gauze, etc. Any of you remember? I only read the report once in detail and it's been a few days. Not ready to go back and re-read it just yet...altho I probably will at some point.
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Yes. There were gloves found on the floor next to the bed. There was bloody gauze found in Murrays bag. There were broken syringes (I assume stepped on by everyone in the room by that time) found in the room.

Now, it would get confusing because the EMT come with their own set of supplies and I have seen code situations and the room is usually a mess afterwards.
 
alford was one of his lawyers in the first few days. dunno if hes still with him. he said that in interviews
 
Chernoff & Alford are STILL his lawyers , I was mad when he said that . I remember it very clearly
 
Popescu said:
It also does not say that the IV catheters were connected to anything, does that mean that they weren't?
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These were among the items found in Murrays bag so I believe these would have been removed from Michael by Murray at some time before the EMT arrived. They found traces of some of the drugs in them.
 
Beachlover said:
These were among the items found in Murrays bag so I believe these would have been removed from Michael by Murray at some time before the EMT arrived. They found traces of some of the drugs in them.
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yeah, when he takes the stand , something I highly doubt , he should tell the jurors who was performing CPR on MJ while he was busy removing everything and hidding his bag . :smilerolleyes:


Well, I didn't hear that but if he said it it was obviously a doo doo lie.
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I already added it to his endless list of lies .
 
bouee said:
Could this explain why they didn't find traces of the other drugs in the IV ?
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IV tubing 101:

Some drugs use special tubing because the drug 'leaches' into the tubing. I know this is true for a drug like Nitroglycerin. We use special tubing because the drug is very strong and concentrated and the tubing sucks some of the drug away and it makes dosing it difficult.

So....some drugs DO leave their imprint and other drugs do not. It depends on what that drug is chemically made of. So, yes, you can push some drugs through the tubing and then follow it with a normal saline bolus and the tubing will remain clear and drug free.
 
Soundmind said:
yeah, when he takes the stand , something I highly doubt , he should tell the jurors who was performing CPR on MJ while he was busy removing everything and hidding his bag . :smilerolleyes:

I already added it to his endless list of lies .
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I guess you missed my comment about hm being on the phone while doing all of this. Its like one of those bad scenes in a car with the woman putting on her mascara and talking on the phone or worse....texting while driving.
 
Beachlover said:
Popescu said:
And for the last time : "In medicine, asystole (colloquially known as flatline) is a state of no cardiac electrical activity, hence no contractions of the myocardium and no cardiac output or blood flow. Asystole is one of the conditions required for a medical practitioner to certify death." Pupils fixed and dilated mean the same thing. They worked on him for 40 minutes, because Murray insisted they do so. He was higher in rank.
Click to expand...
Well, thanks for the medical information here.

I had no idea.
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Beachlover said:
Alright to be fair, I'll explain this too.

In ACLS (Advanced Cardiac Life Support) when the heart goes into asystole in a 50 year old male without previous heart problems you would first try medications to get the heart beating again, while doing Chest Compressions and giving breaths to the patient. I believe I read that they did 2 rounds of the medications. You give Epinephrine and Atropene. These drugs will hopefully get the heart muscle working again. You don't give them one after another, there is a time line between where you wait a little to see if the medicines work, so that takes some time too. 40 minutes seems like an awful long time though.
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Beachlover, I'm sorry, what you are saying makes no sense. One minute you're thanking for something you had no idea about, and the next you're explaining us in detail about ACLS.

Again, what does have to do with this supporting the theory that Murray adminstered Propofol at 11.40 AM?
 
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Popescu said:
Beachlover, I'm sorry, what you are saying makes no sense. One minute you're thanking for something you had no idea about, and the next you're explaining us in detail about ACLS.

Again, what does have to do with this supporting the theory that Murray adminstered Propofol at 11.40 AM?
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I think this came up separately. I just thought it possible he gave the Propofol at 11:40 regardless of whether he was on the phone or not.
 
Beachlover said:
I guess you missed my comment about hm being on the phone while doing all of this. Its like one of those bad scenes in a car with the woman putting on her mascara and talking on the phone or worse....texting while driving.
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come on you can't compare this to putting on mascara while driving! I've never seen a doctor doing anything simplest and being distracted by a phonecall that also requires that you use your hand, this is just impossible in this case, my opinion.
 
Beachlover said:
Alright to be fair, I'll explain this too.

In ACLS (Advanced Cardiac Life Support) when the heart goes into asystole in a 50 year old male without previous heart problems you would first try medications to get the heart beating again, while doing Chest Compressions and giving breaths to the patient. I believe I read that they did 2 rounds of the medications. You give Epinephrine and Atropene. These drugs will hopefully get the heart muscle working again. You don't give them one after another, there is a time line between where you wait a little to see if the medicines work, so that takes some time too. 40 minutes seems like an awful long time though.
Click to expand...


Yes, for those who aren't familiar or would like to know, in a patient who is in asystole, one would start CPR (chest compressions and rescue breaths). IV adrenaline is given asap. Then atropine. CPR is continued checking the rhythm every 2 mins. More adrenaline is given every 3-5 mins, with CPR continued in between. Asystole is not a shockable heart rhythm i.e. you don't deliver a shock using the defibrilator.

40 mins is quite long. In practise, the team usually stops after a few cycles if there isn't any response. But of course this depends on each case and in a young previously healthy patient like Michael, it is not unexpected that they would try harder and for longer. The team will stop when everyone agrees that they stop which is usually the call of the most senior doctor at the scene. As Popescu said, Murray was higher in rank and he insisted that they kept on with resuscitative efforts.
 
Beachlover said:
IV tubing 101:

Some drugs use special tubing because the drug 'leaches' into the tubing. I know this is true for a drug like Nitroglycerin. We use special tubing because the drug is very strong and concentrated and the tubing sucks some of the drug away and it makes dosing it difficult.

So....some drugs DO leave their imprint and other drugs do not. It depends on what that drug is chemically made of. So, yes, you can push some drugs through the tubing and then follow it with a normal saline bolus and the tubing will remain clear and drug free.
Click to expand...

Let's talk logically now, if the guy did not even bother to give propofol through an infusion ( they hinted he was giving it by bolus injections) do you really believe he bothered to give midazolam or lorazepam through an IV infusion ?
 
Justthefacts said:
The report says there was a box of catheters in the room. Did not say what kind there were
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Is my picture on the previous page not showing? It cleary states that upon examination at the hospital, there were present IV catheters, and also an external urine catheter. This was on June 25.
The autopsy was performed on June 26.
It's on page three of the report.
 
gtbt said:
come on you can't compare this to putting on mascara! I've never seen a doctor doing anything simplest and being distracted by a phonecall that also requires that you use your hand, this is just impossible in this case, my opinion.
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There is a 9 minute window in the phone conversation I think.

I put nothing past anyone regarding their stupid cell phones. I don't know who he was talking to and I don't doubt someone to say "Hold On" and put the phone down and go about their business and pick up the phone again. I seriously don't.

The other scenario is that he gave the drug and then didn't pay attention and all that time passed. Anything here is possible. I don't know.
 
Soundmind said:
Let's talk logically now, if the guy did not even bother to give propofol through an infusion ( they hinted he was giving it by bolus injections) do you really believe he bothered to give midazolam or lorazepam through an IV infusion ?
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I was talking about the 'y' tubing that would have been connected to the IV that was attached to his leg that he removed and put in his bag. Not an infusion. That is still IV route.
 
Popescu said:
Is my picture on the previous page not showing? It cleary states that upon examination at the hospital, there were present IV catheters, and also an external urine catheter. This was on June 25.
The autopsy was performed on June 26.
It's on page three of the report.
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From what I read in the autopsy, the catheters found in the room were IV catheters.

Yes, there was an external urinary device attached, but what was that attached to? They never said. If it was attached to something there would be no need to use a bottle. You don't use a bottle if you are attached to a catheter collection bag. They hold 1000 cc or more.
 
Beachlover said:
There is a 9 minute window in the phone conversation I think.

I put nothing past anyone regarding their stupid cell phones. I don't know who he was talking to and I don't doubt someone to say "Hold On" and put the phone down and go about their business and pick up the phone again. I seriously don't.

The other scenario is that he gave the drug and then didn't pay attention and all that time passed. Anything here is possible. I don't know.
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No, there is no window around 11.40 according to the timeline you gave.
And then if you think of your second scenario, this is impossible to involunarily not watch a patient after propofol for such a long time...
 
Soundmind said:
Let's talk logically now, if the guy did not even bother to give propofol through an infusion ( they hinted he was giving it by bolus injections) do you really believe he bothered to give midazolam or lorazepam through an IV infusion ?
Click to expand...

Sound, I am talking about that tubing that was found in the bag that Murray hid. That was the tubing that was taken from Michaels leg, right? Thats what we assume from the evidence.

In that bit of tubing, there is a connector to the actual IV CATHETER that goes into the vein. It is usually about 6" of tubing. Inside THAT tubing there is fluid. He would have 'pushed/bolus' all the drugs through that same piece of tubing. What I said is...if he did not 'clear the line' of whatever drug was in it, the next time he used it, he would be pushing/bolus the last drug he used PLUS the next drug together.
 
Beachlover said:
Sound, I am talking about that tubing that was found in the bag that Murray hid. That was the tubing that was taken from Michaels leg, right? Thats what we assume from the evidence.

In that bit of tubing, there is a connector to the actual IV CATHETER that goes into the vein. It is usually about 6" of tubing. Inside THAT tubing there is fluid. He would have 'pushed/bolus' all the drugs through that same piece of tubing. What I said is...if he did not 'clear the line' of whatever drug was in it, the next time he used it, he would be pushing/bolus the last drug he used PLUS the next drug together.
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OK, I got it .:*****:


:D
 
I just want to say that is sloppy practice and whenever we give drugs in the hospital, we flush that line with Normal Saline so that does not happen. Some drugs do not mix together well and you should never mix certain drugs.

Does this have anything to do with anything? I don't know....but I surely can tell you that if he was using Propofol and NOT clearing the line, when he gave the Flumazenil he pushed MORE Propofol through that same line.
 
Beachlover said:
I just want to say that is sloppy practice and whenever we give drugs in the hospital, we flush that line with Normal Saline so that does not happen. Some drugs do not mix together well and you should never mix certain drugs.

Does this have anything to do with anything? I don't know....but I surely can tell you that if he was using Propofol and NOT clearing the line, when he gave the Flumazenil he pushed MORE Propofol through that same line.
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well. it did not matter since MJ was already dead , the extra propofl nor the flumazenil were going to do anything .
 
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